Just when u thought the UN message got thru to the israelis....
A lebanese tv station manager bombed - LBC channel
he must have been transmitting another (cease-fire) ad... definitely a hizbollah guerrilla !!! !!!! !!!!!!!!
the electronic war has just started.. israelis just started to hack the radio transmission sending their own propaganda .. internet start to quiver... geee...they must b going through hard times.. cse theyr asking whre is hassan nassrallah ...
aphro_al,
i have to disagree with you. hizbulla IS in fact a terrorist organization(this is not meant to tarnish the whole shiite population in lebanon). the only reason that has kept the israeli army in southern lebanon during the 80s and 90s were hizbulla attacks against israel (rockets were fired already then on northern israeli towns).
so saying that hizbulla fought for lebanese freedom just doesnt cut it.
when southern lebanon was freed from israeli militray occupation (and dont tell me about chebaa farms, you know i've already read about it being a syrian and not lebanese territory) hizbulla didnt hand over the land to the lebanese people or government, but kept it for itself. neither did it stop targeting israel and israeli towns (like the recent attack that started this current hell).
i guess you feel there MUST be "good guys" and "bad guys" in this story, but the fact you view israel as the bad guys doesnt mean you have to be view hizbulla as the good guys. they are not.
hizbulla are only after power at your expense. for this they are cynically using islam as a means to get sponsorship from the iranian regime and are evoking nationalist sentiments to unify the lebanese people behind them. i'm afraid you too have fallen into this trap and fail to see the tremedous disservice hizbulla has been doing to the causes of the lebanese people. these causes are independence, democracy, sovereignty, prosperity and peace. not war with israel - you already know what's the price tag on that one.
hizbulla targets israel to serve iranian and syrian interests, and gets arms and support in return. syria and iran have thus chosen YOUR land as THEIR battleground against israel, and hizbulla has been their aide and accomplice in this, jeapordizing all that you hold dear, and preventing any chance of peace in the region.
blame israel for their faults, but remember that overlooking hizbulla's part in this war, just so you can avoid some cognitive dissonance, is only playing into hizbulla's diabolical hands.
keep safe and i hope your cease fire will come soon.
xray.. for your info as you already know i am from chebaa and i am from the south region.. israel didnt occupy the south during the 80's because of the huzballah .. first of all huzballah was created after the invasion not before.. second i didnt say that i agree with the huzb after all its a religious party.. not a national thing its the same as the lebanese forces who are only xtians and who dream of only a xtian country..
second all the war is water war.. without going in2 details but the south of leb is a part which is water treasure.. all the need in water of the north israel is taken from the litani river .. which is mostly in lebanon..
bad guys-- goo dguys... in war theres no such thing.. but if you read the history of zionism and the creation of israel you will know.. whats the policy and future dreams of israel..
second again regarding chebaa farms.. chebaa farms are agricultural lands that belong to chebaa town.. my family has a part in it and we have the papers.. its not syrian.. the problem in it.. which cause the UN to say that its syrian.. its because most of the lebanese borders... including the one thats with palestine... is not drawn.. so along all the lebanese line.. no border is official.. thats why israel as well as the Un can argue about it.. which lead us to the syrian factor.. they never acknowledge lebanon as a country they beleive its a part of syria , thats why they had never an embassy in lebanon.. thats y tey will never draw the borders officially.. because they dnt c us as a country.
again regarding hizbulla.. as i said during the 80's their policy was shit.. and when israel invaded lebanon in the 82.. , there was a national resistance consisting of coalition of left parties. the hizbullah wasnt then created.. and after 1-2 years theyr on.. and all the south know how they were dealing with the israelis to get the national resistance caught .. ( no one talks about it now) and when the left lost it and become weak.. the hizbullah took control.. regarding their future plans for an islamic country.. well i beleive they know now it will never happen.. because the social structure of lebanon cant allow these plans as well as the plans of the lebanese forcs (xtian country).. second.. regarding the control of the hiz of the south after israel withdrawn well its the fault of the government s well back than.. because in 2000 the lebanese government was still under the syrian control in any case those same pple.. that were in control back then and they were defending the hizbulaah and their control of the south.. they are the same.. now that control the government and the same that now are against the hizb. anyway.. its a long story... and since the beginning ( really the begining.. french mandate even b4).. lebanon was always controlled and was always.. faught over .. which lead us that all thi shasnt come in surprise.. it was only a time bomb waiting to explode.. so nthg new..
to add to the conversation ! -
i guess the same shitty political strategy that hizbollah had in the 80's is resurfacing today (but a little bit smarter)
Xray no1 is disregarding Hizbollahs' part in this war (in fact it is the topic of every talk show in the country- huge dilemma)
but then again although i totally disagree with hizbollahs strategy lately and the fact that its leaning towards an iranian/syrian interest more than a lebanese (due to american strategies i might add), I should remind u to check the U.N. reports on the aggressions of each side...since year 2000
Israel had planes over lebanon daily breaking the blue line..
while hizbollah's huge operation was to kidnap 2 soldiers... (a military clever strike - regardless of timing and political analysis - which should NOT have urged israel to declare war )
yes i wouldnt call hezbollah's giving israel a tacit reason for flattening them and subsequently lebanese civilians and infrastructure a strategy that is in lebanon's interest. the question is what will the lebanese do about hezbollah when(if) the shooting stops.
the shooting will stop vado - sooner or later - israel tried the invasion b4 - it knows its hell for her/cant afford the loss of soldiers the huge budget no matter how much support she got from the US (shame on that congress by the way ... 8 ppl only.. 8 to say no to war...)
Hezbollah's arms SHOULD be removed - that was a must most lebanese had agreed upon.
let's say the pressure over syria and the iran nuclear problem just made it worse... - it is known historically that there were religious ties between the shi3a in lebanon and those of syria and iran... that is a fact that cannot be neglected.
But u can't force them to disarm - it should have came peacefully through dialogue or other ways / or else Lebanon would turn into an other Iraq.. if the party is disarmed by force it would use other ways to manifest its opinions starting by destructuring the lebanese gvment ...
I'v read all the stupid and unreasonable things mr. ET wrote – at first i'v said to myself – he doesn't deseve the time and energy for my answer, but then i realized that if we let such racial and narrow minded ppl to get away with the things they say – one day they will succeed making other people believe them (and it happened not too many years ago in a small country called Germany –in the second warld war).
A person who starts his post with the words "war on lebanon by bastard zionist" can't be taken seriously, but since i see that there is a lie that you insist on writing again and again – i will correct it so that other people will understand that this guy in not only a racist but also a liar.
ET said:
"For those of you who think (hizbollah started the fight by kidnapping 2 soldiers I say... Pls wake up and dnt be as idiotic as Bush - do u actually think that such a war was planned in 6 hours ?)"
and than in another post he said:
"pls to every1 that thinks that the israeli attack is disproportionate... IT'S NOT ABOUT those 2 israeli soldiers - plus i'm not defending Hizbollah actions, far from that, but Hizbollah's operation was a limited military operation on the israeli army to capture 2 soldiers to be able to get"
Israel is one small jew country in a huge arab area – it's surrounded by countries like Syria and Iran who's leaders would love to destry it, and israel still have to manage fundamental and radical islamic groups – like Hizbula and the Hamas – which are doing all they can all the time, just to kill inocent people.
People in Erope don't hear about every-day teror acts that this terorist did in israel in the past years, and they certainly don't know that the south and the north of israel are getting missiles-atacts in the past years on a regular basis.
People in israel were injured and died from those atacks but isreal restraint it's army – because israel didn't want to start a war.
When israel ocupied the "security strip" in lebanon so that hizbulla will not beable to launch missiles on innocent civilians, The hizbulla used to say that that is the reason why he attacks israel, so Isreal went out of lebanon teritory to the UN cofirm border – do you think hizbula was satisfied? Ofcourse not – it has much bigger plan – to wipe out Israel from the map.
In fact the countries the created the hezbula monster (Iran and Syria) sent hizbulla to lebanon just for that aim.
When israel surrounded by such terorist factors no one can blame us for being prepered 24/7 aweek for a war.
Israel has the strongest army in the middle east – and more then half of our economic budget goes to security and to our army – because israel in not located in europe and is not surrounded by peaceful countries like the UK, Germany, The Netherland and other nice europian countris.
Ofcourse Israel didn't plan this war in 6 hours – Israel has plans almost for any scenario that can happen in the middle east who is controlled by that kind of teror groups and countries.
This was is not only for 2 israeli soldiers, (for "some reason" mr. ET forgot that 6 more soldiers who were killed in the same incident) – the war is because lebanon who is claim it's a sovereign country, and such country should controll the army groups who work in it's territory.
Imagine that one day a teror group who's ppl live in France will attack the UK – does anyone think that someome believe France that it's not it's responsibility??? So why should lebanon be deferent?
I read comments from people who live in quiet europians countries – they say isreali army hanle this war with too mach power, and i say to them – it's easy to say such things when you live so far and in a such safe place – but if one they (and belive me this day is not so far from you) this fundamental and radical islamic groups will decide that they have some problem with you.... and begin to send suicide bombes terorist or will send a small atomic bomb to your home – you will cry to your goverment to use every military power it has to stop this threat, suddenly you will realize that humaniterian reason will put aside while your life is in real danger.
This take me back to the 11th of september when a teror group atacked the USA and killed so many innocent lives just because "it can" – you could watch America united in it's war in terror – America and the UK are two countries who realize that the war against terror must be without compromise.
Israel is fighting now for it's existant – not for fun. When israel acted restraint – the arab terorist groups around us thought it for a weakness of israeli army and govenment (that is how they think).
I'm sorry for the innocent civilians ppl who were kiled in this war – this is not israel intention –we are the only country that call! And send flaiers to civilians in advance and before the bombs go down.
If israel wanted to distroy lebanon – it could do it – it's not a big problem, but lebanon is not israeli enemy – Huzbulla is the enemy – and this cold bluded enemy uses civilans as a human shelters – so there is no way to beat this war without hearting civilans.
Part of those civilians are helping the Hizbulla and don't care what will happen – they let him to put in their own houses bombs and let him launch missiles from there – after that, when an israeli F16 strikes back they start yelling that "inocent civilians"were heart.
This is the most justified war that had been in this area for a long time – lebanon could prevent it if only controlled it's own territory and dismantle Hizbulla – like any other sovereign country would do – but it didn't do it!
If only lebanon was enforcing the UN decision who orderes it to dismantle Hizbulla – this war could never happen – but it didin't do it!
So the only one, the poor people of lebanon should blame for this war is their own government who did nothing to dismantle the bomb called Hizbulla which located in it's back yard.
I hope for better days and belive me when i say that i also don't like the Hizbulla missiles who hit (only!) our hoeses and only innocent civilians – but i know that this is the price i and all the ppl in israel must pay for cleaning lebanon from this teror organization called Hizbulla.
Thk u . I luv it when ppl reply (to my shit) makes me feel im so important - specially that my shit took so much time n energy from u !!!
After said that let me correct some of ur information:
"When israel ocupied the "security strip" in lebanon so that hizbulla will not beable to launch missiles on innocent civilians"
oh yes - Israel was so able to destroy Hizbollah back then .. wow .. i mean gr8 job... thats y its striking missiles 60 km inside Israel today.. let's see how THAT will stop !
"it's surrounded by countries like Syria and Iran who's leaders would love to destry it " - I hear the cowboy...
I'm sorry to know u R bwing bombed 2.. but comparing the death tolls.. and knowing that a katiosha fired on Israel which can barely break some windows... maybe needs like 5 to kill a human being when ppl in Lebanon r toastes by F-16's - I guess that leaves no room for comparison
"If only lebanon was enforcing the UN decision who orderes it to dismantle Hizbulla"
I don't get how LEBANON SHOULD IMPLEMENT UN RESOLUTIONS - but u fail to mention resolutions n/194-242-425-426 that ISRAEL took over 25 years ... and guess what ITS STILL NOT IMPLEMENTED.. how old is resolution 1559... 12 months?????????? gees.. u made a point there !
U call Hizbollah terrorist.. I'LL GO AS FAR AS SAYIN MAYBE THEY R.....
but guess what .. ISRAEL IS A STATE OF TERROR
quoting an american CS teacher @ AUB b4 the evacuation :
" I just hope this chaos stops.. I so feel like throwing a huge bomb on ISRAEL and elimintating it from the map"
SMTHG i havent heard EVEN LEBANESE SAY !!!!!
P.S. It's not me thats' demonstrating in Haifa asking Olmert to stop the WAR !!!!... u might wanna check ur fellow citizens who think Israel is comitting a crime.
And it's NOT hizbollah that's using chemical bombs that are internationally restricted
"oh yes - Israel was so able to destroy Hizbollah back then .. wow .. i mean gr8 job... thats y its striking missiles 60 km inside Israel today.. let's see how THAT will stop !"
don't be worry - be happy - we will end the job now it won't take much longer, you can depend on the idf.
"I'm sorry to know u R bwing bombed 2.. but comparing the death tolls.. and knowing that a katiosha fired on Israel which can barely break some windows... maybe needs like 5 to kill a human being when ppl in Lebanon r toastes by F-16's - I guess that leaves no room for comparison"
oh ye? barely? what about the people it killed, what about the houses it destroyed? what about the terror it inflict on entire population for years???
the big diferent between us - is that we do everything we can to avoid hearting innocent people - but accidents do happen in particular when Hizbulla uses people as human shelters.
and what about Hisbulla? he aim for civil population! he want's to kill as much civilian as he can! it's not accident - we are his targerts - this is the way terror organization acts.
how can you even try to compare us with that terror organization.
believe me - if israel was a "state of terror" you couldn't write (phisically) anything now - not you and not anyone else in lebanon.
you have a great luck that israel is the country next to you and not ant other country, believe me no other country will send leters and call you to leave before the strike comes.
and about the minor number of people who demonstrating in Haifa - it's a small radical group that not represent anything and anyone - every country has that.
(btw... i will wisper it that no one will hear - there are few lebanon ppl - who also justified israel action - and would love to see Hizbulla on his knees).
"the big diferent between us - is that we do everything we can to avoid hearting innocent people "
V. true.. an example of that is the Qana massacre
for those who don't know what that is.. (it's the massacre that was held in the village of Qana in southern Lebanon - around 150 ppl were gathered in what they thought was a safe refuge (a U.N. camp in the region) guess what.. Israel bombed a U.N. camp and killed 120 ppl...
Oh no no.. wait .. shimon peres says hes sorry.. it wasnt the target of the israeli F-16.. theyll pay all the victims and the UN for all the damages..
@ least that was what the UN resolution asked Israel to do... I didnt c a penny paid.. as for the UN.. it forgave the israeli gvmnt (no need to pay the loss of the material) so much they care for human life....
B4 asking me to feel sorry for the TERROR u say u were under for the past 20 years dear.. pls check the number of ppl dead throughout the years on the lebanese side.. check who occupied the lebanese land.. and p.s. ISRAEL did not occupy lebanon to prevent hizbollah from launching missiles.. Hizbollah was a resistance force that was launched AFTER israel occupied the land....
i think you need to read what i wrote again and again until you will fully understand it (if you need help with that - just ask).
i'v just wrriten you that when you fight in a war innocent people can can get hurt specially if the war is near civil area because terrorist organizations like Hamas and Hizbulla use them as human shelter - no one in israel wanted to hurd anyone in Qana - it was an accident - and accidents do happen - BUT NO ONE DID IT IN PURPOSE!!! and that is the different between terrorist who aim only for innocent people, and us, who don't do it and try as much as we can to avoid it.
i hope that now you will understand what i meant, and if not, don't hasitate to ask me for an explanation (we the israelies are very nice and patient ppl)
and for your second remark:
the only reason idf ever got inside lebanon is because the Lebanon government can't controll it and can't prevent from radical islamic groups to terrorise the north of israel - we have nothing to do in south of lebanon, we don't need this area, if the lebanon state could controll it - we needn't be there in the past or even now.
soo it all leads to my first post conclusion: if you look for someone to blame - look to your own government - who decide to look aside when Hizbulla controlls big parts of it's land and terrorize civilians israeli ppl.
this should be your govenment aim to kick Hizbulla out, if some day it wants to run a sovereign country. lebanon can't be a puppet on the cord of the Iranien or the Syrian governet forever, because if it will happen lebanon will never be free.
you should look on the big picture instead of the nerrow one - look for the reason we got inside lebanon (in the past or now in the present) and always remember that we will never go to war with lebanon if we will not be terrorise by it.
we have peace with egypt, and with jordan - there is no logical reason why there will not be peace with lebanon AFTER you will get rid of the cancer called Hizbulla, Iran and syria - for your own sake.
Eyal - Haifa - Israel.
p.s. - i see you can still type that is one more proof for the israeli compassion.
"cancer called Hizbulla" reminds me some of the radical islamist groups that say "the cancer called ISRAEL" somehow i can figure where they came up with it !!!!
"i see you can still type that is one more proof for the israeli compassion" HOW DARE U... U BASTARD !!!!!
AS FOR MY GOVERNMENT - well how about a simple solution.. why won't ISRAEL get OUT of our fuckin lands in CHEBAA and take back the palestinians and deal with her own shit with the palestinians by implementing the resolution 194 as the U.N said (which u r very fund of it seems) some 5 no 10 no no 20 oh no no no 25 years agoooooooooooooo !!!!!!
then maybe ud let us live in peace - regardless of ur shit of with the palestinians which i honestly don't give a damn about !
I just don't get one thing here.. how can HIZBOLLAH the TERRORIST organisation kill only 15 civilians when they;re terrorists... and the israelis kill 330 civilians and they're not the terrorist..
oh NO no no
let me read again what u just wrote.. - "no one in israel wanted to hurd anyone in Qana - it was an accident - and accidents do happen - BUT NO ONE DID IT IN PURPOSE!!! "
yeah- somehow it just keeps on happenin and happenin and happenin..... u must really have a whole buch of dumb pilots i guess !!!!
Oh. p.s. just for every1 to know.. the compound in QANA hit back in 96 was as large as a 1000 sq. m.
hit with about 5 bombs
not 1 mistake
not a 2nd
not a 3rd
not a 4th
but 5 FUCKIN MISTAKES>..
spare me ur crap would u ?
oh just ask ur unintentional government .. when they throw those useless leaflets which mostly r a bunch of lies by the way.. whats the use of asking ppl to leave their homes in 2 hours and then when they do bombing them ??? like in Marwa7in.. pics r available on the thread.
well i guess the polls say it all.. hell israelis believe nasrallah (hizbollahs leader) more than their own government... do i need to comment?
i'm sorry i made you mad mr. ET... but one thing i could read (and not between the lines) the "humaniterian reasons" are not your cup of tea...let me just remind you that in your first post you asked for money the help the poor people... and in your last post you wanted to throw the palestinians and said: "the palestinians which i honestly don't give a damn about !"
the only thing you care is your own ass - and you want other to help you but you will not help other...(a point for thinking)
and why couldn't you face my answer directly - and instead brought out the palestinians issue out of the blue.
for some reason you insist to count dead israeli civilians from missiles just in the few past days - and "forget" the hundreds of ppl who died here in israel from terror action and missile rockets in the past years.
and you can write 1000 times the numbers from both sides and it still will not change the fact that we didn't do it in purpose and terrorist aim for civilians.
and about our pilots - if you want to be sure you are right, we can try their skilles on you as a target - do you want to participate in this test? (btw... i can't promise you that you will beable to type me such long answers afterwords... of even move...)
just for your knowlage - airplanes don't fire on target jast because the pilot wnats to fire - they must depend on intelligece info, and if the inter is wrong - yes, you can make a mistake - am i clear now? or you want also diagrams and pictures to understand it fully?
and for nasralla - as i'v said before (and you will beable to chack me not in long time from now) - the guy is dead, but still don't know that...
so why should we believe to a ghost? do you believe in ghosts? well i don't...
below is an excerpt from 'hateful' benjamin netanyahu's official web site. it is from one of his favorite articles, i gather. by an equally 'dark' elliott a green.
c'mon, this guy was a prime minister and still a strong figure in israeli politics. so much for 'israel's right to exist' bullshit.
live and let live benny boy... palestinians do exist.
browse this man's web site, he is full of hate and arrogance.
------
PEOPLE THAT NEVER EXISTED IN HISTORY NEEDS A USEFUL PAST.
by Elliott A Green
Review-article on the notion of a "Palestinian people," specifically referring to the book published in English and Hebrew editions: Baruch Kimmerling and Joel Migdal, The Palestinians: Making of a People (New York: Free Press, 1993). Barukh Kimmerling & Yoel Shmuel Migdal, HaPalestinim: `Am b'Hivatsruto (Yerushalayim: Keter, 1999).
It is curious that so often those who purport to scorn old myths go on to make up and promote new myths. Referring to Israeli national traditions, Barukh Kimmerling not long ago wrote (Cathedra no. 80, 1996 [Hebrew]): "Every society needs a past of some sort. This past is interpreted, and sometimes partly invented, in accord with the current needs of the society and of building its collective identity." In his book on the so-called "Palestinian people," Kimmerling and his associate Joel Migdal seek to provide a suitable, useful past for the "Palestinians." In line with Kimmerling's own words, they promote the relatively new myth of a Palestinian people --which never existed in history. The book covers sociological and historical aspects of the so-called Palestinians, while neglecting the conceptual problem of a "Palestinian people" almost totally. The history presented in the book is rather superficial and often wrong, while the questions of when the notion of a "Palestinian people" first emerged and who conceived it and who promoted it and why and how it developed are neglected. This is curious since the sub-title of the book, Making of a People, would lead the reader to think that these questions would be answered in the book. After all, the formation of a people has to do with, among other things, when (and if!) it became aware of itself as in some way a people, a distinct people, different from others, and when (and if) others came to think of it as a distinct, separate people, and whom do the "Palestinians" see as being part of their collectivity and who is left out. The authors do not prove that a "Palestinian people" exists, rather they assume it, consistently using the term. At the same time they neglect the political impact of the new notion, the new label, in contrast with the earlier notion of "Palestinian Arabs" or possible alternative notions, such as "Arab Muslims of Palestine," etc. The usefulness of a separate "Palestinian" identity as a weapon of psychological warfare against Israel does not seem to occur to them.
during the lebanese civil war, the amal militia, which is the shia group from which hezbollah is derived, fought a bloody campaign against the palestinians who were thought to have gained too much power in lebanon. just an fyi.
i wish this thread had a different title. each time i post something in it i feel like i am taking a chance to be misinterpreted.
just for the record, i am for israel to exist forever and peacefully, contributing to the well being of her citizens, the region and the world. otherwise, we will see nothing but bloodshed.
people on both sides are being robbed by hate mongers and religious manipulators. majority israelis are specially being used and manipulated by zealots who undermine the secular peoples' future and peaceful existance.
it is shame that jews, who contributed so much to mankind's evolution, be subject to bloody wars and violance and kept away from coming up with a peaceful solutions to their problems in 21 st century. what is a military might if the people can't sleep comfortably and enjoy everyday pleasures like sitting in a sidewalk cafe?
israels' biggest enemy exists within but thats also the biggest dogma to be reckoned with. israel will be strongest when people like netanyahu have no chance of holding a public office.
its ok orhan i wasnt misinterpreting. i was just pointing out that its a complicated mess and loyalties and influence with lebanon has shifted in the past and can shift again etc.. what a confused mess that was . just seems that lebanon is caught in the middle. first with the plo, now with hezbollah. and everybody's got a finger in the pie there. not to mention all the internal sectarian divisions that exists.
of course not vado, not you.
i was relating to some recent experiences of certain people calling me names for being critical about israel here, a taboo for many. i said before, israel is not and should not be above critisism. it is un jewish to be above critisism, in fact it is greatest strength and wonderful quality about jews to be critical and be open to it. that quality is something the whole world could learn from it. specially muslims.
it is not a cake walk, coming out of a devestating holocust so vivid with people still alive to tell about it and archive loads of documentations as recent as 6o years ago sanya. but i am not about to go in there and analyse it, nor i can. but i did hear the stories first person, from the people who has been there.
it is still to soon to recover from that as a people.
no comment here..
just i was this weekend in sidon helping with the humanitarian aids.. it was really depressing.. u see a family of 10 people evacuated without any cothes any food.. yesterday amn of 50's years old.. was crying and lost his concious several times because hi sonly son was still buried under the wreckage of their home. the man has 7 daughters an one son of 7 years old.. all his daughters are fine .. but his son was buried under the wreckage and the red cross couldnt yet take him out of there.. it is really sad thats one example of all the families that are suffering there..
STop the damn war... we want to live in peace wer just fed up...
Haifa guy !
Nasrallah dead or alive.. do i care?
I'm not even a fan of Hizbollah.. - but u simply don't get one fact.
U're trying to asl me to feel sorry for what u'r going thru ...when all i c is a war on LEBANESE infrastructure, and a war on Lebanese civilians....
It's not me who hasnt; answered ur question.. but instead u failed ( so typical) to prove me y Israel hasn't implemented every single U.N. resolution that was ever made..
194-242-425-426....
when u get to think abt it and send me an answer... we'll continue discussing this..
U just r the product of Israeli false media unforetunately... stupid propaganda !!!
somehow as weird as this is.. i hear of 750 000 ppl evacuated from southern Lebanon... none in Israel !!!! weird !!!!!
"somehow as weird as this is.. i hear of 750 000 ppl evacuated from southern Lebanon... none in Israel !!!! weird !!!!!"
it's because you hear only what you want to hear.... i bet you didn't hear about 1 milion israelies evacuated their houses and left to the south of israel, about the fear from the "next missile" in the eyes of the people who stayed here and the injured children and the dead bodies of civilians who only wanted to go to their work.
we are not taking their pics right after they die to show the world in web sites like you do but it will not change the fact it happens here every day and in the past years.
and to mr Orhan Ayyuce who brought us benjamin netanyahu's official web site:
first, i want to thank you that you brougt us this great web site - loved it - i bet you can learn alot from this great leader!
second, mr benjamin netanyahu's is one of the greatest pm israel ever had (i hope he will be back soon to be pm again).
i can see why you hate him so much, because you know he is right and can explain the world clearly why he and the israeli people right in their only wish to have a small country.
you hate him because you afraid of him - you would like that weak leders will run our country - so you will beable to destroy it...well it will not happen.
let me just say to you one more thing: israel has the right to exist - period! if you like it or not, with you acception or not - you can jump to the moon and hate us and spread your cheap propoganda it will not help you the sooner you will realize that the better.
if the palestines wanted to live in peace they could do that easily - but they want more, much more - they wish us to leave our country just as Hizbulla, Iran and Syria would like that - that is why they use terror against us.
but thx to great leaders like benjamin netanyahu, ariel sharon, menachem begin and more - this will never happen.
we will do everything in our power to make israel exist forever - if we will have to go to war, then we will do it again and again even with the horrible cost of innocent lives in both sides, because we have only one small country belong to us, and you - the arab ppl has soo many counties with soo many teritories to live there, but for some "strange" reason you want only our country.
and mr. ET about the UN decision you mention: israel folow every decision that will not bring to it's end - if israel want to exist it can't bring here all the palestines in the world - because that will be the end of israel, and as i'v said before we will not shoot at our own leg.
if we will go back in time you will find that all israel (and much more territory) was a jew land - so we could demand the arab countries around us to give it back to us, but we don't.
you must understand that as long as we will not have security - no one around us will have it, and if you will leave us alone - and do not try to wipe us up - you will also have peace.
we don't have anything against the lebanon people - but if there is a danger for our existance from lebanon - we will fight to get rid of it.
if it will come from Syria - we will not hasitate to go to war with Syria and also Iran and any other terror state or organization.
" and you can write 1000 times the numbers from both sides and it still will not change the fact that we didn't do it in purpose and terrorist aim for civilians. "
" if we will go back in time you will find that all israel (and much more territory) was a jew land - so we could demand the arab countries around us to give it back to us, but we don't. "
"we are not taking their pics right after they die to show the world in web sites like you do but it will not change the fact it happens here every day and in the past years."
funny world.
i am deeply sorry for eyalll27 and if he thinks like the majority of israelis, for all of them.
occupy, kill and destroy and still think your the victim !
This may be the first time archinect has been involved in international diplomacy- if we can't build the world, maybe we can help save it from hate.
The complexity of the situation is staggering- finding the nuanced middle ground that will be the eventual source of peace will take a long time- but discussions between individuals is where we can start.
A cease fire will happen when idf finds it to be adventageous, unfortunetely not when the citizens of the world cry out.
What is the endgame? will lebanon be bombed back to a preindustrial state? will syria really give up pulling strings? will the region be safer? will there be more jobs, food, water for everyone?
Is this the start of wwIII as the american neocons are hoping for (or is that code for armegeddon?)
Our best hope is to keep on talking! I applaud the efforts of both sides to articulate what is happening... just please try to see through the othersides eyes and be tolerant. This is a situation where there is no right or wrong- everyone is suffering.
Eyall, ET, Aphro, Sanya and others- lets talk about our architecture, our common passion. We are more similar then different - we are architects and design professionals first, or you wouldn't be discussing politics on archinect.
treekiller aka BL - Los Angeles - citizen of the earth
The issues with the middle east are more appropriately blamed on the british empire/ottoman empire and prior waves of european/eurasian invasions, then at the feet of the israelies and the palestinian who are just the current tenants in a superfund site of toxic goo left by all the previous landlords.
We now need to figure out how to clean up the mess, not fling it at each other.
Everybody has done bad things, stupid things, and hateful things in the region.
Coexistance is not what Arafat built into his power base (nor what hezbolla/syria/iran wants), and yes there have been lots of atrocities by the israeli government- but please don't blame one side or claim that they are evil.
Building a wall is not a solution either-
So, do you have any ideas on how to create a cosmopolitan and vibrant multi-cultural middle east???? Then we all win!
"My solution would be: Disarm all of them. Israel as well as all whoever..."
oh ye? and then we will have to live by your mercy?
this is you "great solution"???
how will you disarm Iran? they now want atom bombs.
how will you disarm Hizbulla?
what could happen Israel if we didn't have a strong army? the arab around us would eat us alive.
you "solution" sounds like a sentence used in a beauty contest by miss world...
the situation in the middle east much more complicted.
i will ignore your "personal remark" for me but must bring one sentence of yours that said it all:
"eyalll27, if you as an idiot are going to tell to me that Israel has right to Exist, I am going to blow-up your idea of Israel tomorrow, if not today."
i will tell you one thing: you and your arab friends can talk with us peace, but that will happen only when you realize at last that israel is not going anywhere - we will stay here if you will like it or not, and if you will do anything to try and heart us - you will suffer more.
as long you use terror as a tool to try achive your goles - we will not able to talk with you - and we will fight you.
when you finally realize that israel is here to stay - you will be ready to talk peace with us, until that time - your palestines friend will suffer, and also your Hizbulla friend will sufer because not israel and any other civilize country can tolerant terror.
btw - calling me an idiot or any other curse will not help you to explain yourself better... it just tells us - the reader, who is the ugly person behind the words..
There it is, you actually did it. I hope you are all satisfied with your actions. The long road has come to an end and you have only yourself to blame for the result. Now that he is gone, what will you do?
sanya,
ignore eyalll27, he is just emotional because his city is under a rocket attack.
but it seems you have suggested an excellent idea!
as someone who opposes force you will probably be able to sweet-talk israel into handing you over all their squadrons of f-16s, all gassed up and ready to fly, and hizbulla to give away their rocket launchers to the salvation army in detriot, gift wrapped!
but what if they say no?
will you then resort to pain inflicting force?
you see sanya, it doesnt take more than a silly idea to start a war.
and i bet you are not even a bad person.
power corrupts- military power corrupts as much as political power. disarming is one of the toughest things to do. It took the british 30+ years of negociating to disarm the IRA, and there are still splinter factions that kept their guns. Trading one form of power for another seems to be the only way to get this to work- arms/terrorism for political power worked in irland- but hasn't worked yet for the palestinians and lebaneses. I guess it takes time for stability to sway the hardcore into moderation.
Eyal- how many israeli-arab members of parliment are there?
If we can turn swords into plowshears, they we will have solved global warming.
this discussion leads nowhere, but offers some intersting insight.
the Arab side keeps blaming Israel fro the so called "Zionist-Terror" and at the same time restrains from saying ISRAEL HAS A RIGHT TO EXIST THERE.
the Israeli side keeps blaming the militant Arab groups (Hamas, Hisbollah etc.) for the terror they bring into their country (by rockets or suicide bombers) and at the same time they reastrain from saying WE WILL GIVE UP THE SETTLEMENTS AND OCCUPIED TERRETORIES.
Having said that, it's strange that over the last years if there were any signs close to the statements mentioned, the came from Israel.
Israel moved out of the Gaza-strip and the southern Lebanon, while at the same time Ahmadenedschad/Iran, while building its Nuclear-bomb, keeps sayin that Israel should be wiped out. (I think he doesn't even use the term State or Country for Israel).
So I still think that Israel is clearly overreacting and that destroying civil infrastructure won't stop Hezbollah's terror, but I can somehow understand the fear that this overreaction comes from.
"during the lebanese civil war, the amal militia, which is the shia group from which hezbollah is derived" vado
that is incorrect, fyi. the amal movement (a.m.l :acronym for lebanese resistance detachments ,check wiki, also meaning 'hope') started with the long abducted shiiite cleric moussa elsader and hussein elhusseini. it is not to be confused with its now-allied then-occasional enemy hizbollah faction.
hizbollah was initiated specifically to combat the israeli occupation of lebanese territory
these are two independent and independently led parties. there were, in the tradition of discrete lebanese wars-within-the-war, fierce battles between both primarily to gain the shiite uperhand. they both have a history of resisting israeli occupation, be it that hizbollah's is the more extensive and therefor cited. ironically, whilst hizbollah is seen as the 'terrorist' organization, amal's actions during the civil war were the more atrocious towards palestinians and other lebanese. they are renown for pillages, petty theft, mass killings (as cited, hounding palestinian refugees) and cut throat power hunger. none of which typifies hizbollah. the only reasons that have been presented in the case for calling hizbollah a terrorist organization are the acts of resistance apropos israeli occupation and some freely associated links to random terrorist acts, kidnappings and organizations abroad that are more paranoid assumptions than anything else.
Is Islam's hate of Israel solely because of Israel's "occupation of Palestine"?
Would that mean this conflict is a political problem and not a religious problem or is there no difference in this situation?
The Islamic fundamentalists prefer to have a sociecty based on a literal interpretation of the Quran. But, many times they say they have received a message from the Divine that seemingly is founded on hate, separation, descrimination, killing, etc. for their smallest offense. This, by my limited understanding of the Quran, appears to be the opposite of Mohamed's divine teaching. Is this the way of all Islam or is a small faction with roots in fundamentalist Saudi Arabia responsible for a new and different Islam.
Was the Taliban society of Afganistan the Islamic utopia.
Why was nothing said or done by the leaders (people and nations) of the Islamic world about the wide spread killings of Islami by Islami in the past ten years in Iraq?
Is it the Western press or do all the Islamic clerics look like they want to kill someone and why do so many young Islamic men come out of the mosques angry and ready to kill?
What would happen in this world if Islam was not so hateful, as it appears from this side.
Is it so "Facile and Pollyannish" to think that the actions in the Middle East could be civil and yet retain a disagreement or mutual Disunderstanding?
The article below offers some frightening ideas. From the discussion above, there seems to be no one on this forum with a background to expand on this matter, is there? http://markhumphrys.com/israel.html
to cf and other stainers who regularly throw irresponsible racist and hate mongering statements hiding behind israel's well being,
can we discuss this in istanbul?
are your innards so beyond repair that you can throw stained lies and repeatitious propoganda at somebody else's faith so casually and supposedly given insights to islam in the same article which also bears israeli air force amblem? what kind of jew are you? stop. you have no right to identify your ancient faith with racist garbage like that.
do you ever read articles coming out from many writers in islamic countries, continuosly criticising radical islamic movements world over?
no you don't. because it is a lot easier for pawns like you to throw punches in the air.
well cf, what do u suggest?
i think u say :
its all muslims fault, they shouldnt be muslim in the first place and should have gay prade, let israelies write their schoolbooks and remember they should be on britain side on ww2(if not germans) and in last centuries all wars were muslims faults?
'cause you only see what u like to see
and is this your conclusion ?
lets do what israel is doing to the whole muslim world ?!? because they are muslim ?
Like the narcissitic rightwing christian neo-cons ruling the USA, a small minority of all creeds and religious practices around the world believe 'because we have the only true god, we can hate everybody else'. Argh &*@$! I hate this aspect of religion- this is so primative and narrow minded! (see - even I fall into this line of thinking). Even the most butterfly loving buddhism has its share of intolerance (my guru is better then yours!)
Misperception of beliefs and groups that are different then ourselves is a universal human weakness.
The misperception about islam in the western/christianized world springs from the meglomaniac leaders of a specific few countries that can only preserve their power through stoking hate in their populance. That said, a few religious leaders find they have power through the same path. The global military-industrial complex loves this situation because they can make even more money by selling arms to both sides. So hate=power=money in a few countries.
The historic antagonism between christians and arabs makes it easier to propagandize in the western media - the east versus the west, europe versus genghis khan, or blame what ever the origin of this persistant disease was...
I want to commend the participants for shifting from vitriolic diatribes to something that more closely resembles a dialog. Now if we could restore American neutrality and credibility with the entire world (that might take till after the next election), then peace has a chance.
Istanbul is a good symbolic choice- it once was the center of the roman, then byzantine empire, then the ottoman empires. it is a very cosmopolitan and diverse city.
also cf, i won't give you any sources to read about, only to get you to do your own research. hoping you might come across with something on the way, that might make you think a little differently. hint; you will not look very far and long.
If more people join the citizen of the world club- we can rule the world!!!!! (evil cackle)
oh yeah, power corrupts, so why do we want to rule the world? does power really make a difference? or is all about HIStory- what would Katha Pollit do?
really- I'm not trying to downplay the severity of the situation, but humor has been in short supply on this thread (thanks cf and the world of pie). Maybe that's the problem- just like americans don't find french comedy funny, the israelis and arabs don't get each others jokes.... and so become offended, pull out a gun, and demand retribution for the unintended slight.
I've been keeping myself out of this horrible thread (where's a voice of reason like Tariq Ramadan when you need him?), but would be glad to join the c.o.t.w. club. My naive wishes for a peaceful solution to this situation!
War on Lebanon by bastard Zionists !
Just when u thought the UN message got thru to the israelis....
A lebanese tv station manager bombed - LBC channel
he must have been transmitting another (cease-fire) ad... definitely a hizbollah guerrilla !!! !!!! !!!!!!!!
you may wanna check out this program...thisishell
the electronic war has just started.. israelis just started to hack the radio transmission sending their own propaganda .. internet start to quiver... geee...they must b going through hard times.. cse theyr asking whre is hassan nassrallah ...
this is 21st centuray war....
aphro_al,
i have to disagree with you. hizbulla IS in fact a terrorist organization(this is not meant to tarnish the whole shiite population in lebanon). the only reason that has kept the israeli army in southern lebanon during the 80s and 90s were hizbulla attacks against israel (rockets were fired already then on northern israeli towns).
so saying that hizbulla fought for lebanese freedom just doesnt cut it.
when southern lebanon was freed from israeli militray occupation (and dont tell me about chebaa farms, you know i've already read about it being a syrian and not lebanese territory) hizbulla didnt hand over the land to the lebanese people or government, but kept it for itself. neither did it stop targeting israel and israeli towns (like the recent attack that started this current hell).
i guess you feel there MUST be "good guys" and "bad guys" in this story, but the fact you view israel as the bad guys doesnt mean you have to be view hizbulla as the good guys. they are not.
hizbulla are only after power at your expense. for this they are cynically using islam as a means to get sponsorship from the iranian regime and are evoking nationalist sentiments to unify the lebanese people behind them. i'm afraid you too have fallen into this trap and fail to see the tremedous disservice hizbulla has been doing to the causes of the lebanese people. these causes are independence, democracy, sovereignty, prosperity and peace. not war with israel - you already know what's the price tag on that one.
hizbulla targets israel to serve iranian and syrian interests, and gets arms and support in return. syria and iran have thus chosen YOUR land as THEIR battleground against israel, and hizbulla has been their aide and accomplice in this, jeapordizing all that you hold dear, and preventing any chance of peace in the region.
blame israel for their faults, but remember that overlooking hizbulla's part in this war, just so you can avoid some cognitive dissonance, is only playing into hizbulla's diabolical hands.
keep safe and i hope your cease fire will come soon.
xray.. for your info as you already know i am from chebaa and i am from the south region.. israel didnt occupy the south during the 80's because of the huzballah .. first of all huzballah was created after the invasion not before.. second i didnt say that i agree with the huzb after all its a religious party.. not a national thing its the same as the lebanese forces who are only xtians and who dream of only a xtian country..
second all the war is water war.. without going in2 details but the south of leb is a part which is water treasure.. all the need in water of the north israel is taken from the litani river .. which is mostly in lebanon..
bad guys-- goo dguys... in war theres no such thing.. but if you read the history of zionism and the creation of israel you will know.. whats the policy and future dreams of israel..
second again regarding chebaa farms.. chebaa farms are agricultural lands that belong to chebaa town.. my family has a part in it and we have the papers.. its not syrian.. the problem in it.. which cause the UN to say that its syrian.. its because most of the lebanese borders... including the one thats with palestine... is not drawn.. so along all the lebanese line.. no border is official.. thats why israel as well as the Un can argue about it.. which lead us to the syrian factor.. they never acknowledge lebanon as a country they beleive its a part of syria , thats why they had never an embassy in lebanon.. thats y tey will never draw the borders officially.. because they dnt c us as a country.
again regarding hizbulla.. as i said during the 80's their policy was shit.. and when israel invaded lebanon in the 82.. , there was a national resistance consisting of coalition of left parties. the hizbullah wasnt then created.. and after 1-2 years theyr on.. and all the south know how they were dealing with the israelis to get the national resistance caught .. ( no one talks about it now) and when the left lost it and become weak.. the hizbullah took control.. regarding their future plans for an islamic country.. well i beleive they know now it will never happen.. because the social structure of lebanon cant allow these plans as well as the plans of the lebanese forcs (xtian country).. second.. regarding the control of the hiz of the south after israel withdrawn well its the fault of the government s well back than.. because in 2000 the lebanese government was still under the syrian control in any case those same pple.. that were in control back then and they were defending the hizbulaah and their control of the south.. they are the same.. now that control the government and the same that now are against the hizb. anyway.. its a long story... and since the beginning ( really the begining.. french mandate even b4).. lebanon was always controlled and was always.. faught over .. which lead us that all thi shasnt come in surprise.. it was only a time bomb waiting to explode.. so nthg new..
to add to the conversation ! -
i guess the same shitty political strategy that hizbollah had in the 80's is resurfacing today (but a little bit smarter)
Xray no1 is disregarding Hizbollahs' part in this war (in fact it is the topic of every talk show in the country- huge dilemma)
but then again although i totally disagree with hizbollahs strategy lately and the fact that its leaning towards an iranian/syrian interest more than a lebanese (due to american strategies i might add), I should remind u to check the U.N. reports on the aggressions of each side...since year 2000
Israel had planes over lebanon daily breaking the blue line..
while hizbollah's huge operation was to kidnap 2 soldiers... (a military clever strike - regardless of timing and political analysis - which should NOT have urged israel to declare war )
yes i wouldnt call hezbollah's giving israel a tacit reason for flattening them and subsequently lebanese civilians and infrastructure a strategy that is in lebanon's interest. the question is what will the lebanese do about hezbollah when(if) the shooting stops.
the shooting will stop vado - sooner or later - israel tried the invasion b4 - it knows its hell for her/cant afford the loss of soldiers the huge budget no matter how much support she got from the US (shame on that congress by the way ... 8 ppl only.. 8 to say no to war...)
Hezbollah's arms SHOULD be removed - that was a must most lebanese had agreed upon.
let's say the pressure over syria and the iran nuclear problem just made it worse... - it is known historically that there were religious ties between the shi3a in lebanon and those of syria and iran... that is a fact that cannot be neglected.
But u can't force them to disarm - it should have came peacefully through dialogue or other ways / or else Lebanon would turn into an other Iraq.. if the party is disarmed by force it would use other ways to manifest its opinions starting by destructuring the lebanese gvment ...
i really think most of you posting on this thread are pathetic
I'v read all the stupid and unreasonable things mr. ET wrote – at first i'v said to myself – he doesn't deseve the time and energy for my answer, but then i realized that if we let such racial and narrow minded ppl to get away with the things they say – one day they will succeed making other people believe them (and it happened not too many years ago in a small country called Germany –in the second warld war).
A person who starts his post with the words "war on lebanon by bastard zionist" can't be taken seriously, but since i see that there is a lie that you insist on writing again and again – i will correct it so that other people will understand that this guy in not only a racist but also a liar.
ET said:
"For those of you who think (hizbollah started the fight by kidnapping 2 soldiers I say... Pls wake up and dnt be as idiotic as Bush - do u actually think that such a war was planned in 6 hours ?)"
and than in another post he said:
"pls to every1 that thinks that the israeli attack is disproportionate... IT'S NOT ABOUT those 2 israeli soldiers - plus i'm not defending Hizbollah actions, far from that, but Hizbollah's operation was a limited military operation on the israeli army to capture 2 soldiers to be able to get"
Israel is one small jew country in a huge arab area – it's surrounded by countries like Syria and Iran who's leaders would love to destry it, and israel still have to manage fundamental and radical islamic groups – like Hizbula and the Hamas – which are doing all they can all the time, just to kill inocent people.
People in Erope don't hear about every-day teror acts that this terorist did in israel in the past years, and they certainly don't know that the south and the north of israel are getting missiles-atacts in the past years on a regular basis.
People in israel were injured and died from those atacks but isreal restraint it's army – because israel didn't want to start a war.
When israel ocupied the "security strip" in lebanon so that hizbulla will not beable to launch missiles on innocent civilians, The hizbulla used to say that that is the reason why he attacks israel, so Isreal went out of lebanon teritory to the UN cofirm border – do you think hizbula was satisfied? Ofcourse not – it has much bigger plan – to wipe out Israel from the map.
In fact the countries the created the hezbula monster (Iran and Syria) sent hizbulla to lebanon just for that aim.
When israel surrounded by such terorist factors no one can blame us for being prepered 24/7 aweek for a war.
Israel has the strongest army in the middle east – and more then half of our economic budget goes to security and to our army – because israel in not located in europe and is not surrounded by peaceful countries like the UK, Germany, The Netherland and other nice europian countris.
Ofcourse Israel didn't plan this war in 6 hours – Israel has plans almost for any scenario that can happen in the middle east who is controlled by that kind of teror groups and countries.
This was is not only for 2 israeli soldiers, (for "some reason" mr. ET forgot that 6 more soldiers who were killed in the same incident) – the war is because lebanon who is claim it's a sovereign country, and such country should controll the army groups who work in it's territory.
Imagine that one day a teror group who's ppl live in France will attack the UK – does anyone think that someome believe France that it's not it's responsibility??? So why should lebanon be deferent?
I read comments from people who live in quiet europians countries – they say isreali army hanle this war with too mach power, and i say to them – it's easy to say such things when you live so far and in a such safe place – but if one they (and belive me this day is not so far from you) this fundamental and radical islamic groups will decide that they have some problem with you.... and begin to send suicide bombes terorist or will send a small atomic bomb to your home – you will cry to your goverment to use every military power it has to stop this threat, suddenly you will realize that humaniterian reason will put aside while your life is in real danger.
This take me back to the 11th of september when a teror group atacked the USA and killed so many innocent lives just because "it can" – you could watch America united in it's war in terror – America and the UK are two countries who realize that the war against terror must be without compromise.
Israel is fighting now for it's existant – not for fun. When israel acted restraint – the arab terorist groups around us thought it for a weakness of israeli army and govenment (that is how they think).
I'm sorry for the innocent civilians ppl who were kiled in this war – this is not israel intention –we are the only country that call! And send flaiers to civilians in advance and before the bombs go down.
If israel wanted to distroy lebanon – it could do it – it's not a big problem, but lebanon is not israeli enemy – Huzbulla is the enemy – and this cold bluded enemy uses civilans as a human shelters – so there is no way to beat this war without hearting civilans.
Part of those civilians are helping the Hizbulla and don't care what will happen – they let him to put in their own houses bombs and let him launch missiles from there – after that, when an israeli F16 strikes back they start yelling that "inocent civilians"were heart.
This is the most justified war that had been in this area for a long time – lebanon could prevent it if only controlled it's own territory and dismantle Hizbulla – like any other sovereign country would do – but it didn't do it!
If only lebanon was enforcing the UN decision who orderes it to dismantle Hizbulla – this war could never happen – but it didin't do it!
So the only one, the poor people of lebanon should blame for this war is their own government who did nothing to dismantle the bomb called Hizbulla which located in it's back yard.
I hope for better days and belive me when i say that i also don't like the Hizbulla missiles who hit (only!) our hoeses and only innocent civilians – but i know that this is the price i and all the ppl in israel must pay for cleaning lebanon from this teror organization called Hizbulla.
Eyal – Haifa – Israel.
Thk u . I luv it when ppl reply (to my shit) makes me feel im so important - specially that my shit took so much time n energy from u !!!
After said that let me correct some of ur information:
"When israel ocupied the "security strip" in lebanon so that hizbulla will not beable to launch missiles on innocent civilians"
oh yes - Israel was so able to destroy Hizbollah back then .. wow .. i mean gr8 job... thats y its striking missiles 60 km inside Israel today.. let's see how THAT will stop !
"it's surrounded by countries like Syria and Iran who's leaders would love to destry it " - I hear the cowboy...
I'm sorry to know u R bwing bombed 2.. but comparing the death tolls.. and knowing that a katiosha fired on Israel which can barely break some windows... maybe needs like 5 to kill a human being when ppl in Lebanon r toastes by F-16's - I guess that leaves no room for comparison
"If only lebanon was enforcing the UN decision who orderes it to dismantle Hizbulla"
I don't get how LEBANON SHOULD IMPLEMENT UN RESOLUTIONS - but u fail to mention resolutions n/194-242-425-426 that ISRAEL took over 25 years ... and guess what ITS STILL NOT IMPLEMENTED.. how old is resolution 1559... 12 months?????????? gees.. u made a point there !
U call Hizbollah terrorist.. I'LL GO AS FAR AS SAYIN MAYBE THEY R.....
but guess what .. ISRAEL IS A STATE OF TERROR
quoting an american CS teacher @ AUB b4 the evacuation :
" I just hope this chaos stops.. I so feel like throwing a huge bomb on ISRAEL and elimintating it from the map"
SMTHG i havent heard EVEN LEBANESE SAY !!!!!
P.S. It's not me thats' demonstrating in Haifa asking Olmert to stop the WAR !!!!... u might wanna check ur fellow citizens who think Israel is comitting a crime.
And it's NOT hizbollah that's using chemical bombs that are internationally restricted
"oh yes - Israel was so able to destroy Hizbollah back then .. wow .. i mean gr8 job... thats y its striking missiles 60 km inside Israel today.. let's see how THAT will stop !"
don't be worry - be happy - we will end the job now it won't take much longer, you can depend on the idf.
"I'm sorry to know u R bwing bombed 2.. but comparing the death tolls.. and knowing that a katiosha fired on Israel which can barely break some windows... maybe needs like 5 to kill a human being when ppl in Lebanon r toastes by F-16's - I guess that leaves no room for comparison"
oh ye? barely? what about the people it killed, what about the houses it destroyed? what about the terror it inflict on entire population for years???
the big diferent between us - is that we do everything we can to avoid hearting innocent people - but accidents do happen in particular when Hizbulla uses people as human shelters.
and what about Hisbulla? he aim for civil population! he want's to kill as much civilian as he can! it's not accident - we are his targerts - this is the way terror organization acts.
how can you even try to compare us with that terror organization.
believe me - if israel was a "state of terror" you couldn't write (phisically) anything now - not you and not anyone else in lebanon.
you have a great luck that israel is the country next to you and not ant other country, believe me no other country will send leters and call you to leave before the strike comes.
and about the minor number of people who demonstrating in Haifa - it's a small radical group that not represent anything and anyone - every country has that.
(btw... i will wisper it that no one will hear - there are few lebanon ppl - who also justified israel action - and would love to see Hizbulla on his knees).
Eyal - Haifa - Israel.
"the big diferent between us - is that we do everything we can to avoid hearting innocent people "
V. true.. an example of that is the Qana massacre
for those who don't know what that is.. (it's the massacre that was held in the village of Qana in southern Lebanon - around 150 ppl were gathered in what they thought was a safe refuge (a U.N. camp in the region) guess what.. Israel bombed a U.N. camp and killed 120 ppl...
Oh no no.. wait .. shimon peres says hes sorry.. it wasnt the target of the israeli F-16.. theyll pay all the victims and the UN for all the damages..
@ least that was what the UN resolution asked Israel to do... I didnt c a penny paid.. as for the UN.. it forgave the israeli gvmnt (no need to pay the loss of the material) so much they care for human life....
B4 asking me to feel sorry for the TERROR u say u were under for the past 20 years dear.. pls check the number of ppl dead throughout the years on the lebanese side.. check who occupied the lebanese land.. and p.s. ISRAEL did not occupy lebanon to prevent hizbollah from launching missiles.. Hizbollah was a resistance force that was launched AFTER israel occupied the land....
Damn.. u proved me wrong.. congrats !
i think you need to read what i wrote again and again until you will fully understand it (if you need help with that - just ask).
i'v just wrriten you that when you fight in a war innocent people can can get hurt specially if the war is near civil area because terrorist organizations like Hamas and Hizbulla use them as human shelter - no one in israel wanted to hurd anyone in Qana - it was an accident - and accidents do happen - BUT NO ONE DID IT IN PURPOSE!!! and that is the different between terrorist who aim only for innocent people, and us, who don't do it and try as much as we can to avoid it.
i hope that now you will understand what i meant, and if not, don't hasitate to ask me for an explanation (we the israelies are very nice and patient ppl)
and for your second remark:
the only reason idf ever got inside lebanon is because the Lebanon government can't controll it and can't prevent from radical islamic groups to terrorise the north of israel - we have nothing to do in south of lebanon, we don't need this area, if the lebanon state could controll it - we needn't be there in the past or even now.
soo it all leads to my first post conclusion: if you look for someone to blame - look to your own government - who decide to look aside when Hizbulla controlls big parts of it's land and terrorize civilians israeli ppl.
this should be your govenment aim to kick Hizbulla out, if some day it wants to run a sovereign country. lebanon can't be a puppet on the cord of the Iranien or the Syrian governet forever, because if it will happen lebanon will never be free.
you should look on the big picture instead of the nerrow one - look for the reason we got inside lebanon (in the past or now in the present) and always remember that we will never go to war with lebanon if we will not be terrorise by it.
we have peace with egypt, and with jordan - there is no logical reason why there will not be peace with lebanon AFTER you will get rid of the cancer called Hizbulla, Iran and syria - for your own sake.
Eyal - Haifa - Israel.
p.s. - i see you can still type that is one more proof for the israeli compassion.
"cancer called Hizbulla" reminds me some of the radical islamist groups that say "the cancer called ISRAEL" somehow i can figure where they came up with it !!!!
"i see you can still type that is one more proof for the israeli compassion" HOW DARE U... U BASTARD !!!!!
AS FOR MY GOVERNMENT - well how about a simple solution.. why won't ISRAEL get OUT of our fuckin lands in CHEBAA and take back the palestinians and deal with her own shit with the palestinians by implementing the resolution 194 as the U.N said (which u r very fund of it seems) some 5 no 10 no no 20 oh no no no 25 years agoooooooooooooo !!!!!!
then maybe ud let us live in peace - regardless of ur shit of with the palestinians which i honestly don't give a damn about !
I just don't get one thing here.. how can HIZBOLLAH the TERRORIST organisation kill only 15 civilians when they;re terrorists... and the israelis kill 330 civilians and they're not the terrorist..
oh NO no no
let me read again what u just wrote.. - "no one in israel wanted to hurd anyone in Qana - it was an accident - and accidents do happen - BUT NO ONE DID IT IN PURPOSE!!! "
yeah- somehow it just keeps on happenin and happenin and happenin..... u must really have a whole buch of dumb pilots i guess !!!!
Oh. p.s. just for every1 to know.. the compound in QANA hit back in 96 was as large as a 1000 sq. m.
hit with about 5 bombs
not 1 mistake
not a 2nd
not a 3rd
not a 4th
but 5 FUCKIN MISTAKES>..
spare me ur crap would u ?
oh just ask ur unintentional government .. when they throw those useless leaflets which mostly r a bunch of lies by the way.. whats the use of asking ppl to leave their homes in 2 hours and then when they do bombing them ??? like in Marwa7in.. pics r available on the thread.
well i guess the polls say it all.. hell israelis believe nasrallah (hizbollahs leader) more than their own government... do i need to comment?
i'm sorry i made you mad mr. ET... but one thing i could read (and not between the lines) the "humaniterian reasons" are not your cup of tea...let me just remind you that in your first post you asked for money the help the poor people... and in your last post you wanted to throw the palestinians and said: "the palestinians which i honestly don't give a damn about !"
the only thing you care is your own ass - and you want other to help you but you will not help other...(a point for thinking)
and why couldn't you face my answer directly - and instead brought out the palestinians issue out of the blue.
for some reason you insist to count dead israeli civilians from missiles just in the few past days - and "forget" the hundreds of ppl who died here in israel from terror action and missile rockets in the past years.
and you can write 1000 times the numbers from both sides and it still will not change the fact that we didn't do it in purpose and terrorist aim for civilians.
and about our pilots - if you want to be sure you are right, we can try their skilles on you as a target - do you want to participate in this test? (btw... i can't promise you that you will beable to type me such long answers afterwords... of even move...)
Eyal - Haifa - Israel
and for your second post:
just for your knowlage - airplanes don't fire on target jast because the pilot wnats to fire - they must depend on intelligece info, and if the inter is wrong - yes, you can make a mistake - am i clear now? or you want also diagrams and pictures to understand it fully?
and for nasralla - as i'v said before (and you will beable to chack me not in long time from now) - the guy is dead, but still don't know that...
so why should we believe to a ghost? do you believe in ghosts? well i don't...
below is an excerpt from 'hateful' benjamin netanyahu's official web site. it is from one of his favorite articles, i gather. by an equally 'dark' elliott a green.
c'mon, this guy was a prime minister and still a strong figure in israeli politics. so much for 'israel's right to exist' bullshit.
live and let live benny boy... palestinians do exist.
browse this man's web site, he is full of hate and arrogance.
------
PEOPLE THAT NEVER EXISTED IN HISTORY NEEDS A USEFUL PAST.
by Elliott A Green
Review-article on the notion of a "Palestinian people," specifically referring to the book published in English and Hebrew editions: Baruch Kimmerling and Joel Migdal, The Palestinians: Making of a People (New York: Free Press, 1993). Barukh Kimmerling & Yoel Shmuel Migdal, HaPalestinim: `Am b'Hivatsruto (Yerushalayim: Keter, 1999).
It is curious that so often those who purport to scorn old myths go on to make up and promote new myths. Referring to Israeli national traditions, Barukh Kimmerling not long ago wrote (Cathedra no. 80, 1996 [Hebrew]): "Every society needs a past of some sort. This past is interpreted, and sometimes partly invented, in accord with the current needs of the society and of building its collective identity." In his book on the so-called "Palestinian people," Kimmerling and his associate Joel Migdal seek to provide a suitable, useful past for the "Palestinians." In line with Kimmerling's own words, they promote the relatively new myth of a Palestinian people --which never existed in history. The book covers sociological and historical aspects of the so-called Palestinians, while neglecting the conceptual problem of a "Palestinian people" almost totally. The history presented in the book is rather superficial and often wrong, while the questions of when the notion of a "Palestinian people" first emerged and who conceived it and who promoted it and why and how it developed are neglected. This is curious since the sub-title of the book, Making of a People, would lead the reader to think that these questions would be answered in the book. After all, the formation of a people has to do with, among other things, when (and if!) it became aware of itself as in some way a people, a distinct people, different from others, and when (and if) others came to think of it as a distinct, separate people, and whom do the "Palestinians" see as being part of their collectivity and who is left out. The authors do not prove that a "Palestinian people" exists, rather they assume it, consistently using the term. At the same time they neglect the political impact of the new notion, the new label, in contrast with the earlier notion of "Palestinian Arabs" or possible alternative notions, such as "Arab Muslims of Palestine," etc. The usefulness of a separate "Palestinian" identity as a weapon of psychological warfare against Israel does not seem to occur to them.
-----
during the lebanese civil war, the amal militia, which is the shia group from which hezbollah is derived, fought a bloody campaign against the palestinians who were thought to have gained too much power in lebanon. just an fyi.
i wish this thread had a different title. each time i post something in it i feel like i am taking a chance to be misinterpreted.
just for the record, i am for israel to exist forever and peacefully, contributing to the well being of her citizens, the region and the world. otherwise, we will see nothing but bloodshed.
people on both sides are being robbed by hate mongers and religious manipulators. majority israelis are specially being used and manipulated by zealots who undermine the secular peoples' future and peaceful existance.
it is shame that jews, who contributed so much to mankind's evolution, be subject to bloody wars and violance and kept away from coming up with a peaceful solutions to their problems in 21 st century. what is a military might if the people can't sleep comfortably and enjoy everyday pleasures like sitting in a sidewalk cafe?
israels' biggest enemy exists within but thats also the biggest dogma to be reckoned with. israel will be strongest when people like netanyahu have no chance of holding a public office.
its ok orhan i wasnt misinterpreting. i was just pointing out that its a complicated mess and loyalties and influence with lebanon has shifted in the past and can shift again etc.. what a confused mess that was . just seems that lebanon is caught in the middle. first with the plo, now with hezbollah. and everybody's got a finger in the pie there. not to mention all the internal sectarian divisions that exists.
of course not vado, not you.
i was relating to some recent experiences of certain people calling me names for being critical about israel here, a taboo for many. i said before, israel is not and should not be above critisism. it is un jewish to be above critisism, in fact it is greatest strength and wonderful quality about jews to be critical and be open to it. that quality is something the whole world could learn from it. specially muslims.
it is not a cake walk, coming out of a devestating holocust so vivid with people still alive to tell about it and archive loads of documentations as recent as 6o years ago sanya. but i am not about to go in there and analyse it, nor i can. but i did hear the stories first person, from the people who has been there.
it is still to soon to recover from that as a people.
no comment here..
just i was this weekend in sidon helping with the humanitarian aids.. it was really depressing.. u see a family of 10 people evacuated without any cothes any food.. yesterday amn of 50's years old.. was crying and lost his concious several times because hi sonly son was still buried under the wreckage of their home. the man has 7 daughters an one son of 7 years old.. all his daughters are fine .. but his son was buried under the wreckage and the red cross couldnt yet take him out of there.. it is really sad thats one example of all the families that are suffering there..
STop the damn war... we want to live in peace wer just fed up...
read this article: http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/23/perry.tyre/index.html
Haifa guy !
Nasrallah dead or alive.. do i care?
I'm not even a fan of Hizbollah.. - but u simply don't get one fact.
U're trying to asl me to feel sorry for what u'r going thru ...when all i c is a war on LEBANESE infrastructure, and a war on Lebanese civilians....
It's not me who hasnt; answered ur question.. but instead u failed ( so typical) to prove me y Israel hasn't implemented every single U.N. resolution that was ever made..
194-242-425-426....
when u get to think abt it and send me an answer... we'll continue discussing this..
U just r the product of Israeli false media unforetunately... stupid propaganda !!!
somehow as weird as this is.. i hear of 750 000 ppl evacuated from southern Lebanon... none in Israel !!!! weird !!!!!
is it 2008 yet?
ET said
"somehow as weird as this is.. i hear of 750 000 ppl evacuated from southern Lebanon... none in Israel !!!! weird !!!!!"
it's because you hear only what you want to hear.... i bet you didn't hear about 1 milion israelies evacuated their houses and left to the south of israel, about the fear from the "next missile" in the eyes of the people who stayed here and the injured children and the dead bodies of civilians who only wanted to go to their work.
we are not taking their pics right after they die to show the world in web sites like you do but it will not change the fact it happens here every day and in the past years.
and to mr Orhan Ayyuce who brought us benjamin netanyahu's official web site:
first, i want to thank you that you brougt us this great web site - loved it - i bet you can learn alot from this great leader!
second, mr benjamin netanyahu's is one of the greatest pm israel ever had (i hope he will be back soon to be pm again).
i can see why you hate him so much, because you know he is right and can explain the world clearly why he and the israeli people right in their only wish to have a small country.
you hate him because you afraid of him - you would like that weak leders will run our country - so you will beable to destroy it...well it will not happen.
let me just say to you one more thing: israel has the right to exist - period! if you like it or not, with you acception or not - you can jump to the moon and hate us and spread your cheap propoganda it will not help you the sooner you will realize that the better.
if the palestines wanted to live in peace they could do that easily - but they want more, much more - they wish us to leave our country just as Hizbulla, Iran and Syria would like that - that is why they use terror against us.
but thx to great leaders like benjamin netanyahu, ariel sharon, menachem begin and more - this will never happen.
we will do everything in our power to make israel exist forever - if we will have to go to war, then we will do it again and again even with the horrible cost of innocent lives in both sides, because we have only one small country belong to us, and you - the arab ppl has soo many counties with soo many teritories to live there, but for some "strange" reason you want only our country.
and mr. ET about the UN decision you mention: israel folow every decision that will not bring to it's end - if israel want to exist it can't bring here all the palestines in the world - because that will be the end of israel, and as i'v said before we will not shoot at our own leg.
if we will go back in time you will find that all israel (and much more territory) was a jew land - so we could demand the arab countries around us to give it back to us, but we don't.
you must understand that as long as we will not have security - no one around us will have it, and if you will leave us alone - and do not try to wipe us up - you will also have peace.
we don't have anything against the lebanon people - but if there is a danger for our existance from lebanon - we will fight to get rid of it.
if it will come from Syria - we will not hasitate to go to war with Syria and also Iran and any other terror state or organization.
Eyall - Haifa - Israel
Eyall,
you need spanking. why not let Netanyahu whip you good.
see here :
" and you can write 1000 times the numbers from both sides and it still will not change the fact that we didn't do it in purpose and terrorist aim for civilians. "
" if we will go back in time you will find that all israel (and much more territory) was a jew land - so we could demand the arab countries around us to give it back to us, but we don't. "
"we are not taking their pics right after they die to show the world in web sites like you do but it will not change the fact it happens here every day and in the past years."
funny world.
i am deeply sorry for eyalll27 and if he thinks like the majority of israelis, for all of them.
occupy, kill and destroy and still think your the victim !
funny world.
This may be the first time archinect has been involved in international diplomacy- if we can't build the world, maybe we can help save it from hate.
The complexity of the situation is staggering- finding the nuanced middle ground that will be the eventual source of peace will take a long time- but discussions between individuals is where we can start.
A cease fire will happen when idf finds it to be adventageous, unfortunetely not when the citizens of the world cry out.
What is the endgame? will lebanon be bombed back to a preindustrial state? will syria really give up pulling strings? will the region be safer? will there be more jobs, food, water for everyone?
Is this the start of wwIII as the american neocons are hoping for (or is that code for armegeddon?)
Our best hope is to keep on talking! I applaud the efforts of both sides to articulate what is happening... just please try to see through the othersides eyes and be tolerant. This is a situation where there is no right or wrong- everyone is suffering.
Eyall, ET, Aphro, Sanya and others- lets talk about our architecture, our common passion. We are more similar then different - we are architects and design professionals first, or you wouldn't be discussing politics on archinect.
treekiller aka BL - Los Angeles - citizen of the earth
treekiller :)
you are right i fully agree with you - what can i say.
sanya - please breath! one, two, three, ahhhhhh....
The issues with the middle east are more appropriately blamed on the british empire/ottoman empire and prior waves of european/eurasian invasions, then at the feet of the israelies and the palestinian who are just the current tenants in a superfund site of toxic goo left by all the previous landlords.
We now need to figure out how to clean up the mess, not fling it at each other.
Everybody has done bad things, stupid things, and hateful things in the region.
Coexistance is not what Arafat built into his power base (nor what hezbolla/syria/iran wants), and yes there have been lots of atrocities by the israeli government- but please don't blame one side or claim that they are evil.
Building a wall is not a solution either-
So, do you have any ideas on how to create a cosmopolitan and vibrant multi-cultural middle east???? Then we all win!
"My solution would be: Disarm all of them. Israel as well as all whoever..."
oh ye? and then we will have to live by your mercy?
this is you "great solution"???
how will you disarm Iran? they now want atom bombs.
how will you disarm Hizbulla?
what could happen Israel if we didn't have a strong army? the arab around us would eat us alive.
you "solution" sounds like a sentence used in a beauty contest by miss world...
the situation in the middle east much more complicted.
i will ignore your "personal remark" for me but must bring one sentence of yours that said it all:
"eyalll27, if you as an idiot are going to tell to me that Israel has right to Exist, I am going to blow-up your idea of Israel tomorrow, if not today."
i will tell you one thing: you and your arab friends can talk with us peace, but that will happen only when you realize at last that israel is not going anywhere - we will stay here if you will like it or not, and if you will do anything to try and heart us - you will suffer more.
as long you use terror as a tool to try achive your goles - we will not able to talk with you - and we will fight you.
when you finally realize that israel is here to stay - you will be ready to talk peace with us, until that time - your palestines friend will suffer, and also your Hizbulla friend will sufer because not israel and any other civilize country can tolerant terror.
btw - calling me an idiot or any other curse will not help you to explain yourself better... it just tells us - the reader, who is the ugly person behind the words..
Eyal -Haifa - Israel.
There it is, you actually did it. I hope you are all satisfied with your actions. The long road has come to an end and you have only yourself to blame for the result. Now that he is gone, what will you do?
sanya,
ignore eyalll27, he is just emotional because his city is under a rocket attack.
but it seems you have suggested an excellent idea!
as someone who opposes force you will probably be able to sweet-talk israel into handing you over all their squadrons of f-16s, all gassed up and ready to fly, and hizbulla to give away their rocket launchers to the salvation army in detriot, gift wrapped!
but what if they say no?
will you then resort to pain inflicting force?
you see sanya, it doesnt take more than a silly idea to start a war.
and i bet you are not even a bad person.
power corrupts- military power corrupts as much as political power. disarming is one of the toughest things to do. It took the british 30+ years of negociating to disarm the IRA, and there are still splinter factions that kept their guns. Trading one form of power for another seems to be the only way to get this to work- arms/terrorism for political power worked in irland- but hasn't worked yet for the palestinians and lebaneses. I guess it takes time for stability to sway the hardcore into moderation.
Eyal- how many israeli-arab members of parliment are there?
If we can turn swords into plowshears, they we will have solved global warming.
The Israel's have never experienced terror? The Israeli's don't know what its like to be refugees?
What are you talking about?
this discussion leads nowhere, but offers some intersting insight.
the Arab side keeps blaming Israel fro the so called "Zionist-Terror" and at the same time restrains from saying ISRAEL HAS A RIGHT TO EXIST THERE.
the Israeli side keeps blaming the militant Arab groups (Hamas, Hisbollah etc.) for the terror they bring into their country (by rockets or suicide bombers) and at the same time they reastrain from saying WE WILL GIVE UP THE SETTLEMENTS AND OCCUPIED TERRETORIES.
Having said that, it's strange that over the last years if there were any signs close to the statements mentioned, the came from Israel.
Israel moved out of the Gaza-strip and the southern Lebanon, while at the same time Ahmadenedschad/Iran, while building its Nuclear-bomb, keeps sayin that Israel should be wiped out. (I think he doesn't even use the term State or Country for Israel).
So I still think that Israel is clearly overreacting and that destroying civil infrastructure won't stop Hezbollah's terror, but I can somehow understand the fear that this overreaction comes from.
"during the lebanese civil war, the amal militia, which is the shia group from which hezbollah is derived" vado
that is incorrect, fyi. the amal movement (a.m.l :acronym for lebanese resistance detachments ,check wiki, also meaning 'hope') started with the long abducted shiiite cleric moussa elsader and hussein elhusseini. it is not to be confused with its now-allied then-occasional enemy hizbollah faction.
hizbollah was initiated specifically to combat the israeli occupation of lebanese territory
these are two independent and independently led parties. there were, in the tradition of discrete lebanese wars-within-the-war, fierce battles between both primarily to gain the shiite uperhand. they both have a history of resisting israeli occupation, be it that hizbollah's is the more extensive and therefor cited. ironically, whilst hizbollah is seen as the 'terrorist' organization, amal's actions during the civil war were the more atrocious towards palestinians and other lebanese. they are renown for pillages, petty theft, mass killings (as cited, hounding palestinian refugees) and cut throat power hunger. none of which typifies hizbollah. the only reasons that have been presented in the case for calling hizbollah a terrorist organization are the acts of resistance apropos israeli occupation and some freely associated links to random terrorist acts, kidnappings and organizations abroad that are more paranoid assumptions than anything else.
Is Islam's hate of Israel solely because of Israel's "occupation of Palestine"?
Would that mean this conflict is a political problem and not a religious problem or is there no difference in this situation?
The Islamic fundamentalists prefer to have a sociecty based on a literal interpretation of the Quran. But, many times they say they have received a message from the Divine that seemingly is founded on hate, separation, descrimination, killing, etc. for their smallest offense. This, by my limited understanding of the Quran, appears to be the opposite of Mohamed's divine teaching. Is this the way of all Islam or is a small faction with roots in fundamentalist Saudi Arabia responsible for a new and different Islam.
Was the Taliban society of Afganistan the Islamic utopia.
Why was nothing said or done by the leaders (people and nations) of the Islamic world about the wide spread killings of Islami by Islami in the past ten years in Iraq?
Is it the Western press or do all the Islamic clerics look like they want to kill someone and why do so many young Islamic men come out of the mosques angry and ready to kill?
What would happen in this world if Islam was not so hateful, as it appears from this side.
Is it so "Facile and Pollyannish" to think that the actions in the Middle East could be civil and yet retain a disagreement or mutual Disunderstanding?
The article below offers some frightening ideas. From the discussion above, there seems to be no one on this forum with a background to expand on this matter, is there?
http://markhumphrys.com/israel.html
to cf and other stainers who regularly throw irresponsible racist and hate mongering statements hiding behind israel's well being,
can we discuss this in istanbul?
are your innards so beyond repair that you can throw stained lies and repeatitious propoganda at somebody else's faith so casually and supposedly given insights to islam in the same article which also bears israeli air force amblem? what kind of jew are you? stop. you have no right to identify your ancient faith with racist garbage like that.
are you a student of kahane?
do you ever read articles coming out from many writers in islamic countries, continuosly criticising radical islamic movements world over?
no you don't. because it is a lot easier for pawns like you to throw punches in the air.
Orhan:
I would be interested in any internet sites that offer your Western shrouded viewpoint.
Do you have any comments on the information in the interent site I refered to above?
Why should we discuss this in Istanbul? I don't see the significance.
Please tell me the relationship between digestion and lies.
Why do you call Islam a faith?
well cf, what do u suggest?
i think u say :
its all muslims fault, they shouldnt be muslim in the first place and should have gay prade, let israelies write their schoolbooks and remember they should be on britain side on ww2(if not germans) and in last centuries all wars were muslims faults?
'cause you only see what u like to see
and is this your conclusion ?
lets do what israel is doing to the whole muslim world ?!? because they are muslim ?
Like the narcissitic rightwing christian neo-cons ruling the USA, a small minority of all creeds and religious practices around the world believe 'because we have the only true god, we can hate everybody else'. Argh &*@$! I hate this aspect of religion- this is so primative and narrow minded! (see - even I fall into this line of thinking). Even the most butterfly loving buddhism has its share of intolerance (my guru is better then yours!)
Misperception of beliefs and groups that are different then ourselves is a universal human weakness.
The misperception about islam in the western/christianized world springs from the meglomaniac leaders of a specific few countries that can only preserve their power through stoking hate in their populance. That said, a few religious leaders find they have power through the same path. The global military-industrial complex loves this situation because they can make even more money by selling arms to both sides. So hate=power=money in a few countries.
The historic antagonism between christians and arabs makes it easier to propagandize in the western media - the east versus the west, europe versus genghis khan, or blame what ever the origin of this persistant disease was...
I want to commend the participants for shifting from vitriolic diatribes to something that more closely resembles a dialog. Now if we could restore American neutrality and credibility with the entire world (that might take till after the next election), then peace has a chance.
Istanbul is a good symbolic choice- it once was the center of the roman, then byzantine empire, then the ottoman empires. it is a very cosmopolitan and diverse city.
Treekilla- citizen of the world
i digress...
also cf, i won't give you any sources to read about, only to get you to do your own research. hoping you might come across with something on the way, that might make you think a little differently. hint; you will not look very far and long.
orhan ayyuce- citizen of the world.
If more people join the citizen of the world club- we can rule the world!!!!! (evil cackle)
oh yeah, power corrupts, so why do we want to rule the world? does power really make a difference? or is all about HIStory- what would Katha Pollit do?
really- I'm not trying to downplay the severity of the situation, but humor has been in short supply on this thread (thanks cf and the world of pie). Maybe that's the problem- just like americans don't find french comedy funny, the israelis and arabs don't get each others jokes.... and so become offended, pull out a gun, and demand retribution for the unintended slight.
TK- c.o.t.w.
I've been keeping myself out of this horrible thread (where's a voice of reason like Tariq Ramadan when you need him?), but would be glad to join the c.o.t.w. club. My naive wishes for a peaceful solution to this situation!
a-f : citoyen du monde
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