John McCain.
Normally, I don't vote Repugnicant, but McCain's a Very interesting character, eith an Interesting biography. McCain is kind of
that image of the American Maverick that we used to idolize.
He won New Hampshire & South Carolina. Florida's gonna be interesting.
I'm one of those swing voters. Hillary & Obama don't turn me off.
But people like a Kucinich or Dean (thank Gawd not enough people like them ), Nader (NADER! I think I Voted for NADER!! Bush,jrs true friend), & the remaining field of republicants (would you really vote fro Fred Thompson?) do make me wanna sober up & vote for someone who can build some bridges...& knock at his own party, to boot. BTW, I do know that Dean & Nader aren't running, thankfully. i read the papers!
So, anyone out there interested in McCain? what are your thoughts?
Here is some McCain reading:
Faith of My Fathers, by John McCain and Mark Salter.
John McCain: An American Odyssey, by Robert Timberg.
The Nightingale's Song, by Robert Timberg.
I personally like McCain and I have a lot of respect for everything he's gone through. I was disgusted by the way he was smeared by Bush & Co. during the 2000 primaries, and that whole episode was the final straw that permanently pushed me out of the GOP. (I was on my way out anyway, but that hastened the process.)
That said, I abhor his politics, and would vote for almost anybody running against him in the general election.
I respect McCain immensly, although some time ago he spearheaded a movement to put an end to mixed martial arts fighting. I just can't see a guy that doesn't enjoy MMA becoming president.
Looking like a 3-2 split so far...McCain may have to start courting Chuck Norris to win SandRoad over, though. How 'bout Jackie Chan? Can a Hong Konger be VP?
With the whole "maverick" thing, and the fact that McCain was a fighter pilot, I think the natural thing would be for him to get Tom Cruise on his side to court the liberal wannabe tough guy Democratic swing voters. Then we could have a battle royal pitting Tom Cruise's acting skills against Chuck Norris' fighting skills.
As they say, there are only 3 kinds of people in the world...
After the shenanigans that the Clintons are pulling I think that if it is a McCain-Clinton race he has my vote without a question, although usually I do not vote for Republicans. Billary, by using Rove-like tactics, are killing the democratic party for me. McCain is a true gentleman that understands and has done a lot.
If it is the dreaded Romney-Clinton, the U.S. would have already lost and I am just moving out.
see now, growing up in Arizona, I can't forget that he was part of the Keating Five. Yeah, he did his best to repent with the McCain/Feingold Act, but I'm not buying it. Underneath, he's out for whatever he can get for himself. The man lost my trust before I was even 8 years old.
url=http://www.votesmart.org/voting_category.php?can_id=53270]VoTiNg ReCoRd[/url] of the distinguished gentlemen. Hope you don't like freedom of choice, education or the arts.
McCain...short history....elected to congress with the backing of his father inlaw. Who happened to be largest booze distributor in Arizona. McCain aspires for more....but Moe Udal is in his way. So father inlaw buys new home for McCain in adjoining political district.
McCain becomes Senator McCain. I just don't know....I just don't know if you can trust someone like that.
Oh...ya the other thing which concerns me is there has been tons of political corruption in Arizona Politics....I can think of two governors who have had to step aside and half of the State Legislature.....so if
you sleep with bad fellows....it will likely make you a bad fellow. He
was certainly rubbing butts with all of the above as a US Congressman and US Senator....
he was one of the keating five. remember back in the morning of amerika when raygun deregulated the banking industry and we had a little event known as the savings and loan collapse? ah glory daze amerika.
BTW, Snook, re: McCain moving to AZ - we have to remember that Hillary also moved to NY to become a Senator.
A bit of coincidence, here; McCain's 'house' was a condo next to my Aunt & Uncles' place in Tempe. Funny development, but kinda interesting. It was reminiscent of a So. FLA canal paradise.
I can't see McCain beating Romney... projecting ahead, a McCain v. Hillary series of debates seem like it would get just really really uncomfortable to watch...
But a Romney v. Obama debate, now THAT would get interesting. I'm not Romney biggest fan, but when things move ahead to the point where it's mano-a-mano, and all the grandstanding gives way to a little more point-by-point, issue-by-issue debate, man I think Obama will have his hands full.
are you serious about Romney? Romney with his MILLIONS and cheap rhetoric cannot beat a couple of dead-beats and you think he is even remotely interesting? I think Nader can take him easily.
I would LOVE to see a Romney vs. Obama, the overwhelming landslide for Obama would do the uniting for him.
Ron Paul and Huckabee score more points at debates than he does!! He is despised by other republican candidates and leaders. It is not that he is a maverick or brings anything to the table of substance, it is just that he EXUDES phoniness and $1,000 dollar bills.
I think Hillary seems more genuine in her beliefs and warm than he.
Seriously the only presidential aspect of his campaign is his hair. Even that is almost 'too' perfect, to the point that it is a minus.
My no1 choice is Obama no matter what.
I would vote for a republican any day, to tell you the truth both Huckabee and McCain call my attention. huckabee is a little too extreme on his 'moral issues' for me, but I love his stances and common on some domestic issues. McCain is a hero and I would love to see him elected, but I need to see his VP choice, as I fear that McCain just may not make it. But I am still open on both, and very close to a sell with McCain.
However, if Romney gets it, I may re-think my current stance and vote for Hillary if Obama does not win.
Read what I wrote. I'm no romney guy, I'm saying Obama will not steamroll over him as easily as you're saying in a substantive debate... should one of those ever miraculously occur.
mccain is a hypocrite - he teamed up with teddy kennedy for last years failed amnesty bill
he keeps repeating 'straight talk' but don't be fooled
he keeps repeating 'straight talk' but don't be fooled
he keeps repeating 'straight talk' but don't be fooled
please, if you want an alternative to clintobama, vote for romney
Patrick, I understand what you are saying. Though I don't agree with all of it, I do think that indiscriminate withdrawal is not a good plan at this point, and would probably create more damage to Iraq than what it has already endured. I think these candidates need a more detailed plan concerning a withdrawal that would not lead Iraq into a bloody civil war (though I know that's easier said than done).
But this sentence of yours is really cold:
"And I feel that the American public (read: all civilians) shows amazing hypocrisy in expressing weariness or fatigue for the War in Iraq. What have we sacrificed which makes us feel so weary?"
I mean "all civilians"? All hypocrites? What about basic human empathy and feeling? I can't feel immensely sad and weary of 3,945 young men that are no longer alive (that might now be alive and leading happy lives if one member of the Supreme Court had not cast a vote one way, but the other, because then very likely this war would not have been fought) and an even larger number of civilians there that have died caught in the middle of the fighting? I mean, yes, most Americans have not ripped off their clothes and run into the middle of the street tearing their hair out and wailing (have you?), or are over there fighting like your brother and cousin: we all try to go on with our lives as best we can. So that makes us all hypocrites? Please, I beg you, show a little empathy yourself in this issue.
Yea, that's some optimistic diatribe (somebody get me a drink).
"People are just so damn detached from reality, it is a joke. They become outraged when this war it is not as pretty or as aseptic as the talking heads claimed it would be."
"People", "they": do you make any statements that are not gross generalizations? Do you mean everyone but yourself is detached from reality? How exactly do you know this? People want war to be pretty? What the f**k are you talking about? Which people, cause you ain't talking about me. Some people just don't want this war, period, and that's very much different.
Again, I ask you, according to you no one can have real empathy and sorrow about what is going on over there except you? Yes, the US casualties have been "low", but they are now far more than died on 9/11, and of course the innocent civilians that died over there don't count, do they? People are continuing to die while the man most responsible for 9/11 still sits in a cave in the border country of Pakistan. A citizen can emphatize and support the soldiers over there, who are only doing what they signed up to do, but still question the point of this war. What exactly HAS this war achieved, in your eyes, since you speak so highly of the necessity of war?
You speak from a very high moral ground about this country and its decadence, but from what I read, most of the people on this forum are thinking about this country and the implications of this election, they're far from "arrogant" and "naive". Get off your high horse, why don't you.
First, your emotions must be clouding your judgment, a point you have noted that many Americans are guilty of.
While I strongly question the wisdom of invading Iraq, Obama's call for an immediate/quick withdraw is in my mind ludicrous. It has no basis in reality or understanding of what is going on right now in Iraq. There is no single military leader out there whom you could find that would support such a scheme. If anything, they are asking for more troops so they can continue their gains, and Obama wants to do the opposite! What is going to happen when we start pulling two combat brigades a month? How will the troops left in the rear deal with the almost certain implosion of the government into civil war? My brother and cousin are in this war, right in the most active combat areas. So, I admittedly have a very personal stake in this one issue.
I feel like Obama is pandering to the masses and populist sentiment when he makes such promises. And I feel that the American public (read: all civilians) shows amazing hypocrisy in expressing weariness or fatigue for the War in Iraq. What have we sacrificed which makes us feel so weary?
Now, I get your point here, because when I consider the war my father and his brother were in - Vietnam - and the casualties, 50,000+, were lost in short time, 3,900 seems comparatively small. http://icasualties.org/oif/WndByState.aspx and http://icasualties.org/oif/default.aspx and http://www.iraqbodycount.org/ A few things to consider though; we were lied to about the urgency for the war and how we got into the war, the last time I checked the People are the ones that got us here and should be the ones to get us out, I liken it to what my friend Clay's mom would say to him, "I brought you into this world, and I can take you out." If Obama is "pandering to anything, he is at least tapping in to 74% of the people that want something completely different, and let me say this position of getting out is not based on some willy-nilly idea, he does have many reputable advisers helping make that point http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/opinions/documents/the-war-over-the-wonks.html
I feel for you and your family, but do you think you are the only one here going through that or have gone through that? I wish my father was not in Vietnam, I wish I had a father that was not a drunk and detached person, that that "Vietnam Conflict" left. I have a cousin in country right now. What did Vietnam ever bring us? Oh yeah, homeless and mentally wrecked vets with little or no support systems. Good job USA!
The idea that the UN or NATO could resolve the administrative and governmental issues of the country also seems grounded in the absurd. What crisis has this organization been able to alleviate lately? Israel-Palestine? Lebanon? Dafur? Burma? And the way our NATO allies (France + Germany) are treating us in the theater of Afghanistan is bordering on the criminal.
Agreed, NATO and the UN are flawed, but they need to change focus and start dealing with a different world, something they have not been able to do as of yet.
I just need a more moderate and pragmatical leader in the White House. I think Obama seems very intelligent but then he does not seem to say much either, in the way of details. And domestic issues like healthcare are simply not highest priority to me (even though I lack affordable healthcare).
Not the highest priority? Then you have not been paying attention. What candidate pray tell - outside Ron Paul - has been discussing or presenting policy point for point on the campaign trail? Part of why I am voting for Obama is that he has forced me to at least pay attention to the issues, and realize that I need to get more involved in shaping this country, and sitting on the sidelines is not getting anything done.
I was between Clinton and McCain, but a lot of what I have witnessed lately in the Democratic nomination race has brought back to suspicions I once harbored over the Clinton's integrity. They just seem to do whatever it takes to win and that whole crying episode of Hillary's was really revolting (a woman that strong and smart does NOT cry in public unless it is scripted).
McCain's integrity is unassailable. He is not a special interest goon nor a hypocrite and the man speaks in concrete details. I believe he will hold heavy sway over the independent vote, should he win the GOP nomination.
Wait, wait, unassailable? He pandered to the Christian Right! He is not running the straight talk express. Now, I must say that in all honesty I am still considering McCain, only because I can't vote for Clinton and she still may get the nod, but his most recent comments that we'd be there in Iraq for 100 years is a major fucking faux pas.
Man, that's what I get for being new at Archinect, I fall for these sucker plays. But I'm learning.
"I feel extreme personal guilt over the way my life can continue without significant ramifications."
Again, you never answer any of my questions: there's a war on, we know that, so what exactly do you expect people to do about this, other than be concerned that it's now gone longer than WW2 and be politically involved and vote in primaries, look at the candidates, make a decision about their and the country's future, try to live their lives as best they can? Will you please just tell me what the f**k you would like people to do? This seems to me to be your attitude: there's a war on, so we should just continue it without tought, not only that, we should amplify the fight, create more war, and because the majority of Americans now think this is folly they are "detached from reality" and "hypocrites". Well, SAYS YOU. You are trapped in a fool's logic, in which saying you are against the war is detachment and idiocy, so the war should just continue ad infinitum.
"...all Iraqi people still deserve the rights and protections afforded by liberal democracy."
Yea, they do, but how many billions do we have to pour down a drain for them to get this "liberal democracy"? Couldn't all those billions be doing something good for the people in this country? When exactly, in your eyes, will we have spent enough money and killed enough militants (not to mention soldiers and civilians) so that we can call an end to this debacle? When exactly will we know that we have "prosecuted it effectively"? Also, you're not the only person who's got loved ones over there (and some are never coming back) so it's not totally your call to determine that everyone's not "suffered enough".
But really, that statement is garbage anyway: not ONE of our soldier needed to die in that country; what we should have done is take the billions we've poured into Iraq and used that money to hunt down Bin Laden and his cronies, and we'd have gotten a million times better results.
But you won't answer any of the questions I asked because you enjoy your pro-war diatribe too much, so, yea, ok, you've included yourself in this club of the "detached" and "decadend", but just include me out...I'm done, over and out.
Also, since this is a thread on McCain, you might want to comment on why practically all of the Republican pundits are focusing on destroying his nomination.
mccain 'crosses the aisle' for the wrong issues (if you're a fiscal conservative)
-amnesty for illegal aliens
-tax gas to combat 'global warming' (50 cent tax per gallon? the hell?)
he's conservative on social issues: pro-life (i don't care about the abortion issue). not sure about gay marriage, but i'm guessing he's against it (who cares? let the gays marry!)
it's the amnesty and recent global warming stance that gets to me, i want to see his nomination destroyed
Im copying this response cause it got lost in the obama thread. I dont think its difficult to argue that the failed logic to invade to begin with is not at all besides the point, especially considering McCain is so delusional he still thinks it was a good idea.
"
Look man, my heart goes out to to your brother and your cousin, but Iraq isnt a fucking US colony. The Iraqis may not want us out tomorrow, but they sure as hell dont want us still there 100 years from now. McCains plan sounds great if this is 1940, but this is the 21st century now. Im sad to say to the man but the world has changed. Its just a fact. I mean I respect his military experience, but hes so lost in this WW2 culturally ignorant mindset he cant see out of it. Hes no better than bush. Iraq wasnt a just a tactical failure, it was a fundamental error in judgment and displayed such a profound lack of foresight and cultural awareness its caused more harm to americas diplomatic influence in 6 years than any blunder in our history. Hes making the same mistakes Bush made, the same mistakes Regan made, and hes committing us to the same insane cultural murder-suicide pact with the jihadis that Bin Laden has been dreaming for. The man just cant see the forest for the trees.
Maybe the best thing about nominating Obama will be we will finally get to have this debate. When Obama says "its not just about ending the war, its about ending the mentality that got is into it in the first place," he means it. The level of self-deception and lack of historal-introspection in this country borders on the pathological. The middle east isnt a gas pump. The world isnt Americas fucking plantation. The arab world doesnt want some patronizing western stewardship. They just want some respect. They want to be treated like actual human beings and not bomb fodder. They want to be able to control their own political fates. I dont think thats unreasonable.
Now of course, its true, we are in this mess now and we cant just pull out in 6 months without any forethought or preparation. It has to be a very careful process handing things over to them. But the Iraqi government (and the whole middle east for that matter) does need to know we are leaving, and when. Until they get that message they simply have no incentive to do anything. They can squabble and filibuster and jockey for oil money as long as they want. Theres no urgency to get their own police and military together because who cares? The americans stirred up this fucking mess let them take the heat. And its not even their fault, all theyve ever wanted was some legitimate control over their own affairs, and as long as we're there, as long as theyre dumping most of their gdp into halliburtons profit margin, the government just looks like a hapless puppet regime. The sad fact of the matter is our posture there does more to reinforce the propaganda and recruiting of the people we are fighting than it does to benefit our cause.
What matters more than anything is that we change the terms of the discussion we are having with that entire region. Like I said, I respect McCains experience, but the way hes framing this thing is fundamentally insane. This isnt a choice between victory and surrender. Its a choice between diplomatically resolving conflicts and just trying to kill enough people that the militias just give up. Even if you do it, all youve accomplished is to raise another generation of people with every right to hate america and everything it represents. Its so mindnumbingly counter-productive I can scarcely believe people seriously buy into it. All of the serious gains made there have been made because of political and diplomatic exchanges. Anbar didnt go genocide when we turned it over to the people there, neither did the south when the British pulled out. In fact, surprise, surprise, hey killed off al qaeda themselves and got down to resolving their own conflicts. Until we can make similar political exchanges the greater government and the greater region there is no progress that can be made. Until we can re-frame this conflict as a legitimate dialog, until we can say we arent in some cosmic-death pact, until we can just engage them at the table the same way we would with europe or china nothing is going to change.
Now that some of these candidates have built up massive financial backing, is anybody else thinking there's a chance that some of the 2nd and/or 3rd place finishers in the primaries might break rank and run as independents? might be fun to see the chaos of 4-5 candidates taking the election to the wire.
personally i'd like to see a democratic candidate commit to staying in iraq for long haul. that would be an attractive candidate
wtf is up with joe lieberman??? he's a democrat who's supporting mc cain. he's a freakin mc cainiac and for this he should absolutely be forced to sit in the back of the freaking aisle the dems should freeze that fucker out.
Are you a McCainIAC?
John McCain.
Normally, I don't vote Repugnicant, but McCain's a Very interesting character, eith an Interesting biography. McCain is kind of
that image of the American Maverick that we used to idolize.
He won New Hampshire & South Carolina. Florida's gonna be interesting.
I'm one of those swing voters. Hillary & Obama don't turn me off.
But people like a Kucinich or Dean (thank Gawd not enough people like them ), Nader (NADER! I think I Voted for NADER!! Bush,jrs true friend), & the remaining field of republicants (would you really vote fro Fred Thompson?) do make me wanna sober up & vote for someone who can build some bridges...& knock at his own party, to boot. BTW, I do know that Dean & Nader aren't running, thankfully. i read the papers!
So, anyone out there interested in McCain? what are your thoughts?
Here is some McCain reading:
Faith of My Fathers, by John McCain and Mark Salter.
John McCain: An American Odyssey, by Robert Timberg.
The Nightingale's Song, by Robert Timberg.
the problem with McCain, IMO, is that he's a closet case authoritarian and a McCain presidency worries me immensely.
Anyone who wants to be president fits that bill.
I personally like McCain and I have a lot of respect for everything he's gone through. I was disgusted by the way he was smeared by Bush & Co. during the 2000 primaries, and that whole episode was the final straw that permanently pushed me out of the GOP. (I was on my way out anyway, but that hastened the process.)
That said, I abhor his politics, and would vote for almost anybody running against him in the general election.
Funny how McCain's gotten to be so contraversial. I personally think we got cheated out of a great contest between Gore & MCCAin in 2000.
Bill Clinton lost it for Gore, & he made it possible for LBJ#2 to get elected on name recognition alone. We're a really sick nation...
Agreed... The whole 2000 election was a sham months before they even began casting ballots in Florida.
i'll be nice. anybody who proclaims themself a reagan republican makes me throw up a little in my mouth.
Yeah, i know. I try not to think about the references to Ray-gun.
I try to remember that politicians do that kind of stuff, though.
I respect McCain immensly, although some time ago he spearheaded a movement to put an end to mixed martial arts fighting. I just can't see a guy that doesn't enjoy MMA becoming president.
Looking like a 3-2 split so far...McCain may have to start courting Chuck Norris to win SandRoad over, though. How 'bout Jackie Chan? Can a Hong Konger be VP?
With the whole "maverick" thing, and the fact that McCain was a fighter pilot, I think the natural thing would be for him to get Tom Cruise on his side to court the liberal wannabe tough guy Democratic swing voters. Then we could have a battle royal pitting Tom Cruise's acting skills against Chuck Norris' fighting skills.
As they say, there are only 3 kinds of people in the world...
I'm more partial to Jackie Chan's acting skills.
After the shenanigans that the Clintons are pulling I think that if it is a McCain-Clinton race he has my vote without a question, although usually I do not vote for Republicans. Billary, by using Rove-like tactics, are killing the democratic party for me. McCain is a true gentleman that understands and has done a lot.
If it is the dreaded Romney-Clinton, the U.S. would have already lost and I am just moving out.
see now, growing up in Arizona, I can't forget that he was part of the Keating Five. Yeah, he did his best to repent with the McCain/Feingold Act, but I'm not buying it. Underneath, he's out for whatever he can get for himself. The man lost my trust before I was even 8 years old.
url=http://www.votesmart.org/voting_category.php?can_id=53270]VoTiNg ReCoRd[/url] of the distinguished gentlemen. Hope you don't like freedom of choice, education or the arts.
McCain...short history....elected to congress with the backing of his father inlaw. Who happened to be largest booze distributor in Arizona. McCain aspires for more....but Moe Udal is in his way. So father inlaw buys new home for McCain in adjoining political district.
McCain becomes Senator McCain. I just don't know....I just don't know if you can trust someone like that.
Oh...ya the other thing which concerns me is there has been tons of political corruption in Arizona Politics....I can think of two governors who have had to step aside and half of the State Legislature.....so if
you sleep with bad fellows....it will likely make you a bad fellow. He
was certainly rubbing butts with all of the above as a US Congressman and US Senator....
he was one of the keating five. remember back in the morning of amerika when raygun deregulated the banking industry and we had a little event known as the savings and loan collapse? ah glory daze amerika.
Thankfully George Bailey took over. Actually yours are only one set of ideas on choice, school, and the arts, there, Kafka.
It says it all in his Professional Experience protion ov Vados Site mentioned above:
Professional Experience:
Senate Navy Liaison, 1977-1981
Captain, United States Navy, Vietnam, 1958-1981
Beer Distributor.
Wonder if he is elected if he will throw a national Beer Bash!?
Beer Bash...that's really why I'm voting for him.
BTW, Snook, re: McCain moving to AZ - we have to remember that Hillary also moved to NY to become a Senator.
A bit of coincidence, here; McCain's 'house' was a condo next to my Aunt & Uncles' place in Tempe. Funny development, but kinda interesting. It was reminiscent of a So. FLA canal paradise.
Florida. Super Tuesday Next?
please god, no
YES YES YES...Say hello to our next president, hands down.
I can't see McCain beating Romney... projecting ahead, a McCain v. Hillary series of debates seem like it would get just really really uncomfortable to watch...
But a Romney v. Obama debate, now THAT would get interesting. I'm not Romney biggest fan, but when things move ahead to the point where it's mano-a-mano, and all the grandstanding gives way to a little more point-by-point, issue-by-issue debate, man I think Obama will have his hands full.
i'd love obama vs. romney
please god, yes
yup, I hope Romney makes it. He's easy to dislike.
are you serious about Romney? Romney with his MILLIONS and cheap rhetoric cannot beat a couple of dead-beats and you think he is even remotely interesting? I think Nader can take him easily.
I would LOVE to see a Romney vs. Obama, the overwhelming landslide for Obama would do the uniting for him.
It's a "cheap rheotric" show sustaining BOTH sides thus far Elim...
I think you're wrong. Obama would not find the easy time you're suggesting in debating Romney.
Sand,
Ron Paul and Huckabee score more points at debates than he does!! He is despised by other republican candidates and leaders. It is not that he is a maverick or brings anything to the table of substance, it is just that he EXUDES phoniness and $1,000 dollar bills.
I think Hillary seems more genuine in her beliefs and warm than he.
Seriously the only presidential aspect of his campaign is his hair. Even that is almost 'too' perfect, to the point that it is a minus.
My no1 choice is Obama no matter what.
I would vote for a republican any day, to tell you the truth both Huckabee and McCain call my attention. huckabee is a little too extreme on his 'moral issues' for me, but I love his stances and common on some domestic issues. McCain is a hero and I would love to see him elected, but I need to see his VP choice, as I fear that McCain just may not make it. But I am still open on both, and very close to a sell with McCain.
However, if Romney gets it, I may re-think my current stance and vote for Hillary if Obama does not win.
Read what I wrote. I'm no romney guy, I'm saying Obama will not steamroll over him as easily as you're saying in a substantive debate... should one of those ever miraculously occur.
I'm diggin' ron paul, myself...
mccain is a hypocrite - he teamed up with teddy kennedy for last years failed amnesty bill
he keeps repeating 'straight talk' but don't be fooled
he keeps repeating 'straight talk' but don't be fooled
he keeps repeating 'straight talk' but don't be fooled
please, if you want an alternative to clintobama, vote for romney
Patrick, I understand what you are saying. Though I don't agree with all of it, I do think that indiscriminate withdrawal is not a good plan at this point, and would probably create more damage to Iraq than what it has already endured. I think these candidates need a more detailed plan concerning a withdrawal that would not lead Iraq into a bloody civil war (though I know that's easier said than done).
But this sentence of yours is really cold:
"And I feel that the American public (read: all civilians) shows amazing hypocrisy in expressing weariness or fatigue for the War in Iraq. What have we sacrificed which makes us feel so weary?"
I mean "all civilians"? All hypocrites? What about basic human empathy and feeling? I can't feel immensely sad and weary of 3,945 young men that are no longer alive (that might now be alive and leading happy lives if one member of the Supreme Court had not cast a vote one way, but the other, because then very likely this war would not have been fought) and an even larger number of civilians there that have died caught in the middle of the fighting? I mean, yes, most Americans have not ripped off their clothes and run into the middle of the street tearing their hair out and wailing (have you?), or are over there fighting like your brother and cousin: we all try to go on with our lives as best we can. So that makes us all hypocrites? Please, I beg you, show a little empathy yourself in this issue.
Yea, that's some optimistic diatribe (somebody get me a drink).
"People are just so damn detached from reality, it is a joke. They become outraged when this war it is not as pretty or as aseptic as the talking heads claimed it would be."
"People", "they": do you make any statements that are not gross generalizations? Do you mean everyone but yourself is detached from reality? How exactly do you know this? People want war to be pretty? What the f**k are you talking about? Which people, cause you ain't talking about me. Some people just don't want this war, period, and that's very much different.
Again, I ask you, according to you no one can have real empathy and sorrow about what is going on over there except you? Yes, the US casualties have been "low", but they are now far more than died on 9/11, and of course the innocent civilians that died over there don't count, do they? People are continuing to die while the man most responsible for 9/11 still sits in a cave in the border country of Pakistan. A citizen can emphatize and support the soldiers over there, who are only doing what they signed up to do, but still question the point of this war. What exactly HAS this war achieved, in your eyes, since you speak so highly of the necessity of war?
You speak from a very high moral ground about this country and its decadence, but from what I read, most of the people on this forum are thinking about this country and the implications of this election, they're far from "arrogant" and "naive". Get off your high horse, why don't you.
welcome back, patrick! jumping right back into the political threads, are we? ; )
Patrick,
First, your emotions must be clouding your judgment, a point you have noted that many Americans are guilty of.
While I strongly question the wisdom of invading Iraq, Obama's call for an immediate/quick withdraw is in my mind ludicrous. It has no basis in reality or understanding of what is going on right now in Iraq. There is no single military leader out there whom you could find that would support such a scheme. If anything, they are asking for more troops so they can continue their gains, and Obama wants to do the opposite! What is going to happen when we start pulling two combat brigades a month? How will the troops left in the rear deal with the almost certain implosion of the government into civil war? My brother and cousin are in this war, right in the most active combat areas. So, I admittedly have a very personal stake in this one issue.
No single military leader? http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/08/19/3266/ and http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/WSJ-iraq_study_group.pdf and http://www.fcnl.org/issues/item.php?item_id=2601&issue_id=35[/b]
I feel like Obama is pandering to the masses and populist sentiment when he makes such promises. And I feel that the American public (read: all civilians) shows amazing hypocrisy in expressing weariness or fatigue for the War in Iraq. What have we sacrificed which makes us feel so weary?
Now, I get your point here, because when I consider the war my father and his brother were in - Vietnam - and the casualties, 50,000+, were lost in short time, 3,900 seems comparatively small. http://icasualties.org/oif/WndByState.aspx and http://icasualties.org/oif/default.aspx and http://www.iraqbodycount.org/ A few things to consider though; we were lied to about the urgency for the war and how we got into the war, the last time I checked the People are the ones that got us here and should be the ones to get us out, I liken it to what my friend Clay's mom would say to him, "I brought you into this world, and I can take you out." If Obama is "pandering to anything, he is at least tapping in to 74% of the people that want something completely different, and let me say this position of getting out is not based on some willy-nilly idea, he does have many reputable advisers helping make that point http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/opinions/documents/the-war-over-the-wonks.html
I feel for you and your family, but do you think you are the only one here going through that or have gone through that? I wish my father was not in Vietnam, I wish I had a father that was not a drunk and detached person, that that "Vietnam Conflict" left. I have a cousin in country right now. What did Vietnam ever bring us? Oh yeah, homeless and mentally wrecked vets with little or no support systems. Good job USA!
The idea that the UN or NATO could resolve the administrative and governmental issues of the country also seems grounded in the absurd. What crisis has this organization been able to alleviate lately? Israel-Palestine? Lebanon? Dafur? Burma? And the way our NATO allies (France + Germany) are treating us in the theater of Afghanistan is bordering on the criminal.
Agreed, NATO and the UN are flawed, but they need to change focus and start dealing with a different world, something they have not been able to do as of yet.
I just need a more moderate and pragmatical leader in the White House. I think Obama seems very intelligent but then he does not seem to say much either, in the way of details. And domestic issues like healthcare are simply not highest priority to me (even though I lack affordable healthcare).
Not the highest priority? Then you have not been paying attention. What candidate pray tell - outside Ron Paul - has been discussing or presenting policy point for point on the campaign trail? Part of why I am voting for Obama is that he has forced me to at least pay attention to the issues, and realize that I need to get more involved in shaping this country, and sitting on the sidelines is not getting anything done.
I was between Clinton and McCain, but a lot of what I have witnessed lately in the Democratic nomination race has brought back to suspicions I once harbored over the Clinton's integrity. They just seem to do whatever it takes to win and that whole crying episode of Hillary's was really revolting (a woman that strong and smart does NOT cry in public unless it is scripted).
McCain's integrity is unassailable. He is not a special interest goon nor a hypocrite and the man speaks in concrete details. I believe he will hold heavy sway over the independent vote, should he win the GOP nomination.
Wait, wait, unassailable? He pandered to the Christian Right! He is not running the straight talk express. Now, I must say that in all honesty I am still considering McCain, only because I can't vote for Clinton and she still may get the nod, but his most recent comments that we'd be there in Iraq for 100 years is a major fucking faux pas.
He has mine.
To be continued...
Man, that's what I get for being new at Archinect, I fall for these sucker plays. But I'm learning.
"I feel extreme personal guilt over the way my life can continue without significant ramifications."
Again, you never answer any of my questions: there's a war on, we know that, so what exactly do you expect people to do about this, other than be concerned that it's now gone longer than WW2 and be politically involved and vote in primaries, look at the candidates, make a decision about their and the country's future, try to live their lives as best they can? Will you please just tell me what the f**k you would like people to do? This seems to me to be your attitude: there's a war on, so we should just continue it without tought, not only that, we should amplify the fight, create more war, and because the majority of Americans now think this is folly they are "detached from reality" and "hypocrites". Well, SAYS YOU. You are trapped in a fool's logic, in which saying you are against the war is detachment and idiocy, so the war should just continue ad infinitum.
"...all Iraqi people still deserve the rights and protections afforded by liberal democracy."
Yea, they do, but how many billions do we have to pour down a drain for them to get this "liberal democracy"? Couldn't all those billions be doing something good for the people in this country? When exactly, in your eyes, will we have spent enough money and killed enough militants (not to mention soldiers and civilians) so that we can call an end to this debacle? When exactly will we know that we have "prosecuted it effectively"? Also, you're not the only person who's got loved ones over there (and some are never coming back) so it's not totally your call to determine that everyone's not "suffered enough".
But really, that statement is garbage anyway: not ONE of our soldier needed to die in that country; what we should have done is take the billions we've poured into Iraq and used that money to hunt down Bin Laden and his cronies, and we'd have gotten a million times better results.
But you won't answer any of the questions I asked because you enjoy your pro-war diatribe too much, so, yea, ok, you've included yourself in this club of the "detached" and "decadend", but just include me out...I'm done, over and out.
Also, since this is a thread on McCain, you might want to comment on why practically all of the Republican pundits are focusing on destroying his nomination.
mccain 'crosses the aisle' for the wrong issues (if you're a fiscal conservative)
-amnesty for illegal aliens
-tax gas to combat 'global warming' (50 cent tax per gallon? the hell?)
he's conservative on social issues: pro-life (i don't care about the abortion issue). not sure about gay marriage, but i'm guessing he's against it (who cares? let the gays marry!)
it's the amnesty and recent global warming stance that gets to me, i want to see his nomination destroyed
Im copying this response cause it got lost in the obama thread. I dont think its difficult to argue that the failed logic to invade to begin with is not at all besides the point, especially considering McCain is so delusional he still thinks it was a good idea.
"
Look man, my heart goes out to to your brother and your cousin, but Iraq isnt a fucking US colony. The Iraqis may not want us out tomorrow, but they sure as hell dont want us still there 100 years from now. McCains plan sounds great if this is 1940, but this is the 21st century now. Im sad to say to the man but the world has changed. Its just a fact. I mean I respect his military experience, but hes so lost in this WW2 culturally ignorant mindset he cant see out of it. Hes no better than bush. Iraq wasnt a just a tactical failure, it was a fundamental error in judgment and displayed such a profound lack of foresight and cultural awareness its caused more harm to americas diplomatic influence in 6 years than any blunder in our history. Hes making the same mistakes Bush made, the same mistakes Regan made, and hes committing us to the same insane cultural murder-suicide pact with the jihadis that Bin Laden has been dreaming for. The man just cant see the forest for the trees.
Maybe the best thing about nominating Obama will be we will finally get to have this debate. When Obama says "its not just about ending the war, its about ending the mentality that got is into it in the first place," he means it. The level of self-deception and lack of historal-introspection in this country borders on the pathological. The middle east isnt a gas pump. The world isnt Americas fucking plantation. The arab world doesnt want some patronizing western stewardship. They just want some respect. They want to be treated like actual human beings and not bomb fodder. They want to be able to control their own political fates. I dont think thats unreasonable.
Now of course, its true, we are in this mess now and we cant just pull out in 6 months without any forethought or preparation. It has to be a very careful process handing things over to them. But the Iraqi government (and the whole middle east for that matter) does need to know we are leaving, and when. Until they get that message they simply have no incentive to do anything. They can squabble and filibuster and jockey for oil money as long as they want. Theres no urgency to get their own police and military together because who cares? The americans stirred up this fucking mess let them take the heat. And its not even their fault, all theyve ever wanted was some legitimate control over their own affairs, and as long as we're there, as long as theyre dumping most of their gdp into halliburtons profit margin, the government just looks like a hapless puppet regime. The sad fact of the matter is our posture there does more to reinforce the propaganda and recruiting of the people we are fighting than it does to benefit our cause.
What matters more than anything is that we change the terms of the discussion we are having with that entire region. Like I said, I respect McCains experience, but the way hes framing this thing is fundamentally insane. This isnt a choice between victory and surrender. Its a choice between diplomatically resolving conflicts and just trying to kill enough people that the militias just give up. Even if you do it, all youve accomplished is to raise another generation of people with every right to hate america and everything it represents. Its so mindnumbingly counter-productive I can scarcely believe people seriously buy into it. All of the serious gains made there have been made because of political and diplomatic exchanges. Anbar didnt go genocide when we turned it over to the people there, neither did the south when the British pulled out. In fact, surprise, surprise, hey killed off al qaeda themselves and got down to resolving their own conflicts. Until we can make similar political exchanges the greater government and the greater region there is no progress that can be made. Until we can re-frame this conflict as a legitimate dialog, until we can say we arent in some cosmic-death pact, until we can just engage them at the table the same way we would with europe or china nothing is going to change.
"
here's what i think...if you've got something to say, say it quickly and succinctly.
nobody's got time to read all of this back and forth...who cares about details?
details schmeetails.
if we're going to have any kind of debate, it's got to be based on bullet-points and buzz-words only.
C'mon people...BP's and BW's only!
Kissinger can't be good as an endorsement given his track record.
Don't know about the buzzwords, but bullets points...that's good, mightyl.
Patrick,
- ok, I'll write out f**k from now on ;-)
- by "sucker play" I meant discussions in which someone takes a position that is so absolute and ideological that there's really no "discussion".
- you are addressing me specifically because you said "everyone" and "people", and that includes me, I'm a people.
- I agreed with you that we can't just pull out and let the place descend into civil war, that doesn't mean the answer is just more escalated war.
- like putting as many people in as WW2. Hell, why don't we just nuke the whole Middle East, wouldn't that be quicker? That's more war, isn't it?
- what Beta said....
- I like what you said about those cretins too, and, but for the hawk attitude, might make a good president.
out
(how was that, mightyl?)
that should have been:
- what oe said...
better.
fewer words though please...
civil war is neither civil nor a war, discuss...
Now that some of these candidates have built up massive financial backing, is anybody else thinking there's a chance that some of the 2nd and/or 3rd place finishers in the primaries might break rank and run as independents? might be fun to see the chaos of 4-5 candidates taking the election to the wire.
personally i'd like to see a democratic candidate commit to staying in iraq for long haul. that would be an attractive candidate
wtf is up with joe lieberman??? he's a democrat who's supporting mc cain. he's a freakin mc cainiac and for this he should absolutely be forced to sit in the back of the freaking aisle the dems should freeze that fucker out.
Is Lieberman even officially still a Democrat? I thought he declared himself an Independent.
well ya i guess he's an independent, but he still seems to get to keep his accrued years as a dem...
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