I tend to agree.... I like McCain a lot better before he began pandering to the inbred redneck wing of the Republican Party. Now he seems to be pulling a Mitt Romney-style transformation from sensible moderate to mouth-breathing reactionary.
if mc cain hadn't have been shot down and captured during nam he wouldn't be against torture. if he hadn't have shot down he would have spent his tour of duty dropping napalm on vietnamese babies and flyin back to base for a martini. he's a douchebag.
Look Ive been in some rough places, but that guy has seen shit that would make your eyes bleed. I actually have a terrible respect for any human who can endure what he has endured. Long time ago as it may have been, and questionable as the political and human merits of the vietnam war were and are, I have genuine respect for the kind of personal wisdom that experience is bound to imbue within a person.
I happen to think he is wrong on just about everything, that the consolations made to him upon his return and the political company he keeps has bred in him loyalty to ideas that just arent genuinely helpful anymore in this new era, but that doesnt mean I dont respect his viewpoints and personal experiences.
"Do you look down upon all people who serve in uniform? Do you disregard the concepts inherent to Plato's Republic? Do you think that the quality of life and liberties that you currently enjoy are not the direct result of bloody wars fought and in many cases, civilian populations decimated?"
See, this is where you and I depart. The logic in this paragraph is so tortured Im just astounded this argument is still being made. And I honestly think it does a moral disservice to reduce the real human suffering weve faced in this world to this kind of black and white rhetoric.
"Philosophically, do you think that dropping the atom bomb in Hiroshima was an "atrocity" committed by inhuman warmongers? Do you think those people should be held to account?"
If the Japanese had dropped nuclear weapons on San Francisco and Los Angeles and killed millions of american civilians over the course of decades would you really still be asking this question?
the vietnam war had nothing to do with my quality of life then or now. as far as what stalin did to his people or what mao did to his or to what the shah of iran did to his or what the argentine junta did to theirs or what idi amin did to his has nothing to do with my statement.
The United States government brags about not torturing people, not targeting civilians, not being like the enemy when in fact we are because in war fucking awful shit happens.
But McCain is a hypocrit if he won't sign onto waterboarding being torture. He has surrendered the one thing that separated him from all his drinking buddy hawks hasn't he? yes, he has. And my criticism doesn't throw a blanket of guilt over all people who have served in uniform.
And as far as me personally committing an atrocity what's an atrocity. i may have fire bombed tokyo(more dead than hiroshima), i may have shot a ss prisoner, i may have fired mustard gas into the trenches, i may have burned atlanta, i may have garroted montezuma...
and as far as mcnamara is concerned his former boss curtis le may summed it up best "if we'd have lost world war II, we would have been tried as war criminals." in mcnamara's case, he would have been tried twice.
my criticism of mccain has to do with him and his hypocrisy. hiroshima and whether dropping an atomic bomb was morally reprehensible or not which is a totally different discussion and doesnt enter into my comments on this thread. and oh by the way we dropping the equivalent of a hiroshima a week on vietnam.
uh no matter the candidates, iraq and 9/11 will be at the forefront thanks to the culture of fear and fearmongering brought on by herr muschi - er i mean bush. but seriously, who the fuck cares anymore?
"
You people don't get it and you never will. I seriously don't give a shit about you pacifiscts anymore. You're the same people who cowered suring school while the kids in gangs extorted money from people.
I hope something happens in your life to give you perspective—maybe you'll be held up at gunpoint or talk to a Lithuanian who was sent to die in Siberia by the Soviets, merely for being a landowner.
You don't deserve someone like McCain or Obama. You deserve tyranny and to have your guts stamped out by a Jihadist who'd sooner kill you as ook at you.
"
Patrick, this is what I mean by black and white thinking. Just because someone doesnt agree with this war or doesnt think vietnam made any sense doesnt make them a pacifist, and it doesnt mean we dont understand the profound horrors that exist in this world. I have no illusions about the gravity of evil that existed under stalin or mao or that is being carried out by bin laden or Kim Jong Il right now. I think its very important that I also dont have any illusions about the evils the united states has perpetrated in Hiroshima and Dresden and Cambodia or Iraq. The question is not whether we as fellow human beings on this earth should be doing something to end evil in this world, but what we should be doing, what is the most effective way for us to make this world better, and how do we prevent ourselves from becoming what we are fighting against.
"
The Japanese were prepared to wage a long and bloody war. Extrapolating statistics from battles like Leyte, Luzon, Iwo Jima, and Okinawa, the estimated casualty cost of a land invasion of Japan was approximately one quarter of a million to one million US soldiers.
You do the math. Saving 10,000 US lives would have been worth 500,000 Japanese. That's war. You don't cry for your enemy. You kill them indiscriminately and without remorse. And if you doubt their resolve to fight a conventional war to the last man, consider the fact of their unwillingness to surrender after the first bomb. It took two for their emperor fascist god to admit defeat.
"
You must realize what a psychotic point of view this is. I mean how on earth can you condemn osama bin laden if you really feel this way? You demonize indiscriminately, you make no distinction between civilian and military life, and you show utter callousness for the loss of that life. This is exactly what I mean by becoming that which you seek to destroy. I mean we could have an extended conversation about the politics of Vietnamese vs Maoist vs Soviet communism and the quackery of the domino theory, or about the real military industrial state japan and germany had reached long before we firebombed and nuked civilian centers there, but youre so far off base I dont think we even have to go there. Freedom is a noble cause, but it isnt one that excuses all methods in the fighting for it. Not everything america has done in the last 50 years has been noble. Its true that 9-11 was murderous and horrendously evil beyond excuse, but in response weve now likely caused the deaths of most of a million people in the middle east. Can you not see that that is murderous and evil as well? Can you not see that the bush administration has managed to place itself among the same ranks of murmurous regimes they claim to be fighting?
Again, Im not against all wars. I would agree that under the utmost dire of circumstances, like those at our entrance into WW2, it does become necessary for people to fight to ensure a better world survives, but one's actions during those fights carries the most profound burden of proof and the most serious and sober responsibility and accounting for ones conduct in order to claim any real moral justice.
There are few in the world who would argue we achieved that in vietnam or are achieving that now in Iraq.
"
Do you look down upon all people who serve in uniform? Do you disregard the concepts inherent to Plato's Republic? Do you think that the quality of life and liberties that you currently enjoy are not the direct result of bloody wars fought and in many cases, civilian populations decimated?
"
And as just as an aside, have you read the republic?? Can you imagine actual real people living that way? That shit is a fucking nightmare!
You're wasting your time, oe, his views are written in stone, and EVERY life the USA (but just the USA) has ever taken is in his mind for a glorious cause and cannot be questioned, and he will brook no argument. It's the same sickness that plagues the present administration and many of those who elected it: never admit you did anything wrong, no matter what the evidence shows.
You're better off walking outside and banging your head against a brick wall. My preference was just to move on.
"I guess all of humanity was going through a mass psychosis during that era."
Yes!
"Are you seriously telling me that somebody in US government should have placed concern regarding the presence of civilians in those two Japanese cities above the lives of American troops?"
YES!!
I mean christ! Dont you think people like Stalin and Bin Laden should take that into consideration?? Even drafted soldiers make at some point a conscious decision to take a weapon and enter a battlefield and put their lives on the line for something they believe in. Civilians dont have that choice. Dont you remember liberty and individual free will? What good are these ideals we are fighting for if we dont make that distinction?
"In fact, if you were facing similar reactionary beliefs held by members of the Republican far right, you would almost certainly be foaming at the mouth in disgust."
But I am foaming at the mouth in disgust. Of course I think bin laden is a raving madman, but your attitude and americas methods these last years just arent helping anything. We may think we are the only sheriff in town, but about now I dont think many people in this world who really believe we are out there enforcing any laws. You may bemoan this perception, but there is a reason for it, one that in stubbornness eludes people like you and McCain, which is that our methods are frankly no longer coherent with the principles we espouse.
I may never have been a solider, and I will not pretend my pale experiences with death compare to real combat, but I have been to the middle east. I have been to Kashmir. Im sure the situation your brother and cousin are in make it extremely difficult to see this, but I will tell you that the most astounding majority of people in this world really do want nothing more than to live in peace. They want just want to feed their families without fear of being dragged off in the night or having a jdam come through their roof. Its really difficult for me to understand how youve come to such a hard-line position on altruism. Isnt that exactly what your brother is doing over there? Putting his own life at risk for those he loves? To suggest that altruism is not a part of human nature is just not remotely accurate in any sense I can think of, science least of all. If anything cooperation and social life is the defining human characteristic. Every social bond from parenting to civilization itself is based on it! Yknow I can understand your pessimism given your circumstance, but I just have to tell you that the world at its heart just aint that way.
Since this thread has run way off course into a military discussion just thought I'd bring up this little fact.
Ron Paul has received more donations from people in the military than any other canidate. And he clearly has the strongest anti-war platform of any canidate.
No Obabma anti-war platitudes from Paul, just a simple straightforward message - if elected we're out tomorrow.
it will be interesting to see what actually does happen in iraq in the next week. if al-sadr ends his truce, it could be the beginning of the end as it essentially could provide the impression among the american public that the surge is not working. this will affect the presidential race, period.
The public is losing support of Iraq not for political reasons, but for economic reasons. The base of support is starting to ask, how much is this war costing us, and that's what'll bring the troops home...not anti-war political ideology.
"It is in our nation's interest to fight for democracy wold wide because it makes for a smoother ride and less losses FOR US in the end."
Yes, let's make war all over the world so that everyone might have democracy: that statement would make me laugh were it not so fucking sad (funny, though, it's just Iraq we want to bring democracy too: let the North Koreans, the Myanmarians, the Kenyans, and all the rest of them rot in hell).
YOUR opinions are like farting to my ears.
"By contrast we wage a brutal but decisive war so that we might establish a democracy with individual liberties and separation of powers."
There is a Rand Corporation paper out that says that is exactly what we are NOT doing there: not MY opinion, theirs. You find it for yourself, but you probably won't look for it, because it's an opinion that differs from your stone tablets.
Yes Mr. Stone Wall, I misread everything you say glorifying the carrying out and necessity for war and the NEED to be in Iraq and give them democracy. Yes, you're right, there is no argument any one can make against your crystalline logic (not even the Rand Corporation).
Yes, I'll sit there and quote back ALL the gargage that you're spewing so that it won't be out of context...hell, you wrote the damn quotes: stand by them.
And no, I'm not going to go into North Korean strategic impossibilities with you...it's a waste of time and go fuck yourself.
If we lose, the insurgents we are fighting will undoubtedly take power.
Is that acceptable to you—that radical fundamentalists would establish a government in Iraq potentially far more oppressive and dangerous than the previous Hussein regime?
Patrick, do you really believe the world will sit idly by letting a country like Iraq devolve into a state similar, or worse, than the Taliban controlled Afghanistan?
I come from the camp that thinks Iraq is all about oil. I'm also crazy enough to belive that oil is a finite resource that is running out. Take one trip to Ft. McMurray Canada and then tell me Iraq has nothing to do with oil, I dare you.
If the US leaves it'll create a vacuum easily filled by either A.) China or B.) Russia. Obviously China needs a lot of oil. They've been in pursuit of the resource for years now....see Sudan, Kazakhstan, Canada, et. al. There's good evidence that the KSA has peaked in production and Iraq is the biggest prize out there in the quest for energy resources. Bush was actually very smart IMO regarding this. Given the reality of tight supply, $100 oil, I have no doubt another country would be in Iraq right now had the USA not gone there first. And for all the peace loving pacifists, I doubt China would worry much about civilian/collateral dead.
I'm not anti-war per se. I do think Iraq was mis-handled. But, I think it's absurd to conduct our military operations in the ME without a scant reference to conservation back home. Sales of SUV's and light trucks should be outright banned for example. Fossil fuel waste is a travesty paid for in the blood of americans...and has been for years.
yeah but regarding the question of the iraqis themselves, how would russia or china filling this vacuum make any difference to their quality of life? the iraqis will simply be fighting the chinese and the russians instead of us. personally i think the countries that will fill the vacuum will be turkey, iran, and saudi arabia, which is where we get into the possibility of the war spilling over in the broader region. the chinese seem too isolationist to put troops in iraq, and the russians (and chinese) would probably back iran intervening before they'd ever put themselves there in the first place.
it is much more complicated than russia or china. you have some pretty involved governments in the area that are closely monitoring and assessing the possible scenerios in iraq. i won't get into it but patrick might have some in depth information about those dynamics. not that i agree with his doctrines. but sure, if i was fighting a war, i'd like him to be my field general.
Are you a McCainIAC?
I tend to agree.... I like McCain a lot better before he began pandering to the inbred redneck wing of the Republican Party. Now he seems to be pulling a Mitt Romney-style transformation from sensible moderate to mouth-breathing reactionary.
if mc cain hadn't have been shot down and captured during nam he wouldn't be against torture. if he hadn't have shot down he would have spent his tour of duty dropping napalm on vietnamese babies and flyin back to base for a martini. he's a douchebag.
Look Ive been in some rough places, but that guy has seen shit that would make your eyes bleed. I actually have a terrible respect for any human who can endure what he has endured. Long time ago as it may have been, and questionable as the political and human merits of the vietnam war were and are, I have genuine respect for the kind of personal wisdom that experience is bound to imbue within a person.
I happen to think he is wrong on just about everything, that the consolations made to him upon his return and the political company he keeps has bred in him loyalty to ideas that just arent genuinely helpful anymore in this new era, but that doesnt mean I dont respect his viewpoints and personal experiences.
"Do you look down upon all people who serve in uniform? Do you disregard the concepts inherent to Plato's Republic? Do you think that the quality of life and liberties that you currently enjoy are not the direct result of bloody wars fought and in many cases, civilian populations decimated?"
See, this is where you and I depart. The logic in this paragraph is so tortured Im just astounded this argument is still being made. And I honestly think it does a moral disservice to reduce the real human suffering weve faced in this world to this kind of black and white rhetoric.
"Philosophically, do you think that dropping the atom bomb in Hiroshima was an "atrocity" committed by inhuman warmongers? Do you think those people should be held to account?"
If the Japanese had dropped nuclear weapons on San Francisco and Los Angeles and killed millions of american civilians over the course of decades would you really still be asking this question?
the vietnam war had nothing to do with my quality of life then or now. as far as what stalin did to his people or what mao did to his or to what the shah of iran did to his or what the argentine junta did to theirs or what idi amin did to his has nothing to do with my statement.
The United States government brags about not torturing people, not targeting civilians, not being like the enemy when in fact we are because in war fucking awful shit happens.
But McCain is a hypocrit if he won't sign onto waterboarding being torture. He has surrendered the one thing that separated him from all his drinking buddy hawks hasn't he? yes, he has. And my criticism doesn't throw a blanket of guilt over all people who have served in uniform.
And as far as me personally committing an atrocity what's an atrocity. i may have fire bombed tokyo(more dead than hiroshima), i may have shot a ss prisoner, i may have fired mustard gas into the trenches, i may have burned atlanta, i may have garroted montezuma...
and as far as mcnamara is concerned his former boss curtis le may summed it up best "if we'd have lost world war II, we would have been tried as war criminals." in mcnamara's case, he would have been tried twice.
my criticism of mccain has to do with him and his hypocrisy. hiroshima and whether dropping an atomic bomb was morally reprehensible or not which is a totally different discussion and doesnt enter into my comments on this thread. and oh by the way we dropping the equivalent of a hiroshima a week on vietnam.
uh no matter the candidates, iraq and 9/11 will be at the forefront thanks to the culture of fear and fearmongering brought on by herr muschi - er i mean bush. but seriously, who the fuck cares anymore?
"
You people don't get it and you never will. I seriously don't give a shit about you pacifiscts anymore. You're the same people who cowered suring school while the kids in gangs extorted money from people.
I hope something happens in your life to give you perspective—maybe you'll be held up at gunpoint or talk to a Lithuanian who was sent to die in Siberia by the Soviets, merely for being a landowner.
You don't deserve someone like McCain or Obama. You deserve tyranny and to have your guts stamped out by a Jihadist who'd sooner kill you as ook at you.
"
Patrick, this is what I mean by black and white thinking. Just because someone doesnt agree with this war or doesnt think vietnam made any sense doesnt make them a pacifist, and it doesnt mean we dont understand the profound horrors that exist in this world. I have no illusions about the gravity of evil that existed under stalin or mao or that is being carried out by bin laden or Kim Jong Il right now. I think its very important that I also dont have any illusions about the evils the united states has perpetrated in Hiroshima and Dresden and Cambodia or Iraq. The question is not whether we as fellow human beings on this earth should be doing something to end evil in this world, but what we should be doing, what is the most effective way for us to make this world better, and how do we prevent ourselves from becoming what we are fighting against.
"
The Japanese were prepared to wage a long and bloody war. Extrapolating statistics from battles like Leyte, Luzon, Iwo Jima, and Okinawa, the estimated casualty cost of a land invasion of Japan was approximately one quarter of a million to one million US soldiers.
You do the math. Saving 10,000 US lives would have been worth 500,000 Japanese. That's war. You don't cry for your enemy. You kill them indiscriminately and without remorse. And if you doubt their resolve to fight a conventional war to the last man, consider the fact of their unwillingness to surrender after the first bomb. It took two for their emperor fascist god to admit defeat.
"
You must realize what a psychotic point of view this is. I mean how on earth can you condemn osama bin laden if you really feel this way? You demonize indiscriminately, you make no distinction between civilian and military life, and you show utter callousness for the loss of that life. This is exactly what I mean by becoming that which you seek to destroy. I mean we could have an extended conversation about the politics of Vietnamese vs Maoist vs Soviet communism and the quackery of the domino theory, or about the real military industrial state japan and germany had reached long before we firebombed and nuked civilian centers there, but youre so far off base I dont think we even have to go there. Freedom is a noble cause, but it isnt one that excuses all methods in the fighting for it. Not everything america has done in the last 50 years has been noble. Its true that 9-11 was murderous and horrendously evil beyond excuse, but in response weve now likely caused the deaths of most of a million people in the middle east. Can you not see that that is murderous and evil as well? Can you not see that the bush administration has managed to place itself among the same ranks of murmurous regimes they claim to be fighting?
Again, Im not against all wars. I would agree that under the utmost dire of circumstances, like those at our entrance into WW2, it does become necessary for people to fight to ensure a better world survives, but one's actions during those fights carries the most profound burden of proof and the most serious and sober responsibility and accounting for ones conduct in order to claim any real moral justice.
There are few in the world who would argue we achieved that in vietnam or are achieving that now in Iraq.
"
Do you look down upon all people who serve in uniform? Do you disregard the concepts inherent to Plato's Republic? Do you think that the quality of life and liberties that you currently enjoy are not the direct result of bloody wars fought and in many cases, civilian populations decimated?
"
And as just as an aside, have you read the republic?? Can you imagine actual real people living that way? That shit is a fucking nightmare!
You're wasting your time, oe, his views are written in stone, and EVERY life the USA (but just the USA) has ever taken is in his mind for a glorious cause and cannot be questioned, and he will brook no argument. It's the same sickness that plagues the present administration and many of those who elected it: never admit you did anything wrong, no matter what the evidence shows.
You're better off walking outside and banging your head against a brick wall. My preference was just to move on.
Dresden's bombing was done by the brits.
It was both of us actually.
Read on the bulk was the Brits. but you equated it earlier as a strictly american action.
?
Oh. My bad. We just finished the last 1/3rd of the job and strafed people running from the fires. I feel so much better about the whole thing now.
^^^ Can someone please call me out on my smug prickness sometime?
*rolls-eyes-at-self*
Sorry vado, we agree on the matter.
"I guess all of humanity was going through a mass psychosis during that era."
Yes!
"Are you seriously telling me that somebody in US government should have placed concern regarding the presence of civilians in those two Japanese cities above the lives of American troops?"
YES!!
I mean christ! Dont you think people like Stalin and Bin Laden should take that into consideration?? Even drafted soldiers make at some point a conscious decision to take a weapon and enter a battlefield and put their lives on the line for something they believe in. Civilians dont have that choice. Dont you remember liberty and individual free will? What good are these ideals we are fighting for if we dont make that distinction?
"In fact, if you were facing similar reactionary beliefs held by members of the Republican far right, you would almost certainly be foaming at the mouth in disgust."
But I am foaming at the mouth in disgust. Of course I think bin laden is a raving madman, but your attitude and americas methods these last years just arent helping anything. We may think we are the only sheriff in town, but about now I dont think many people in this world who really believe we are out there enforcing any laws. You may bemoan this perception, but there is a reason for it, one that in stubbornness eludes people like you and McCain, which is that our methods are frankly no longer coherent with the principles we espouse.
I may never have been a solider, and I will not pretend my pale experiences with death compare to real combat, but I have been to the middle east. I have been to Kashmir. Im sure the situation your brother and cousin are in make it extremely difficult to see this, but I will tell you that the most astounding majority of people in this world really do want nothing more than to live in peace. They want just want to feed their families without fear of being dragged off in the night or having a jdam come through their roof. Its really difficult for me to understand how youve come to such a hard-line position on altruism. Isnt that exactly what your brother is doing over there? Putting his own life at risk for those he loves? To suggest that altruism is not a part of human nature is just not remotely accurate in any sense I can think of, science least of all. If anything cooperation and social life is the defining human characteristic. Every social bond from parenting to civilization itself is based on it! Yknow I can understand your pessimism given your circumstance, but I just have to tell you that the world at its heart just aint that way.
Since this thread has run way off course into a military discussion just thought I'd bring up this little fact.
Ron Paul has received more donations from people in the military than any other canidate. And he clearly has the strongest anti-war platform of any canidate.
No Obabma anti-war platitudes from Paul, just a simple straightforward message - if elected we're out tomorrow.
Thoughts?
a message like Paul, although great, would not win elections (how many delegates does he have?). Obama's is the realistic best thing.
"a message like Paul, although great,.."
Yknow, minus calling Martin Luther King a homosexual pedophile and wanting to administer the government via horse and buggy...
it will be interesting to see what actually does happen in iraq in the next week. if al-sadr ends his truce, it could be the beginning of the end as it essentially could provide the impression among the american public that the surge is not working. this will affect the presidential race, period.
The public is losing support of Iraq not for political reasons, but for economic reasons. The base of support is starting to ask, how much is this war costing us, and that's what'll bring the troops home...not anti-war political ideology.
"It is in our nation's interest to fight for democracy wold wide because it makes for a smoother ride and less losses FOR US in the end."
Yes, let's make war all over the world so that everyone might have democracy: that statement would make me laugh were it not so fucking sad (funny, though, it's just Iraq we want to bring democracy too: let the North Koreans, the Myanmarians, the Kenyans, and all the rest of them rot in hell).
YOUR opinions are like farting to my ears.
"By contrast we wage a brutal but decisive war so that we might establish a democracy with individual liberties and separation of powers."
There is a Rand Corporation paper out that says that is exactly what we are NOT doing there: not MY opinion, theirs. You find it for yourself, but you probably won't look for it, because it's an opinion that differs from your stone tablets.
I really do feel for oe, though, because he DOES make great points, mainly because he actually HAS a heart.
Yes Mr. Stone Wall, I misread everything you say glorifying the carrying out and necessity for war and the NEED to be in Iraq and give them democracy. Yes, you're right, there is no argument any one can make against your crystalline logic (not even the Rand Corporation).
Yes, I'll sit there and quote back ALL the gargage that you're spewing so that it won't be out of context...hell, you wrote the damn quotes: stand by them.
And no, I'm not going to go into North Korean strategic impossibilities with you...it's a waste of time and go fuck yourself.
and as far as hilarious,
BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!
you must me looking in the mirror
and YOU are what's gone very wrong with the world
and now I'm really done with you
but to everyone else here: feel free to waste your time.
(Note: I was characterizing the public as "immature", not you personally OE.)
hee, hee, hee
fuck you too
Some people's definition of a coward: anyone who disagrees with me.
this is not rethoric, it's just how one talks to an asshole.
but this is silly, why don't you just go and relax with a war tome, we're done
not worthy of a response
and you should be ashamed to be on a forum of people who create, you fucking warmonger
goodbye
hey, oe, do you smell something in here...smells like farts.
Did they lower the voting age?
Is there a noise in here? Never mind, it's just flatulance.
(Note: I was characterizing "the public" as "flatulance", not anyone personally.)
Funny, I still hear it....
.....
.....
don't know you from Adam either...don't care...have read enough.
guys
enough.
...oh im late.
Is that acceptable to you—that radical fundamentalists would establish a government in Iraq potentially far more oppressive and dangerous than the previous Hussein regime?
Patrick, do you really believe the world will sit idly by letting a country like Iraq devolve into a state similar, or worse, than the Taliban controlled Afghanistan?
I come from the camp that thinks Iraq is all about oil. I'm also crazy enough to belive that oil is a finite resource that is running out. Take one trip to Ft. McMurray Canada and then tell me Iraq has nothing to do with oil, I dare you.
If the US leaves it'll create a vacuum easily filled by either A.) China or B.) Russia. Obviously China needs a lot of oil. They've been in pursuit of the resource for years now....see Sudan, Kazakhstan, Canada, et. al. There's good evidence that the KSA has peaked in production and Iraq is the biggest prize out there in the quest for energy resources. Bush was actually very smart IMO regarding this. Given the reality of tight supply, $100 oil, I have no doubt another country would be in Iraq right now had the USA not gone there first. And for all the peace loving pacifists, I doubt China would worry much about civilian/collateral dead.
I'm not anti-war per se. I do think Iraq was mis-handled. But, I think it's absurd to conduct our military operations in the ME without a scant reference to conservation back home. Sales of SUV's and light trucks should be outright banned for example. Fossil fuel waste is a travesty paid for in the blood of americans...and has been for years.
yeah but regarding the question of the iraqis themselves, how would russia or china filling this vacuum make any difference to their quality of life? the iraqis will simply be fighting the chinese and the russians instead of us. personally i think the countries that will fill the vacuum will be turkey, iran, and saudi arabia, which is where we get into the possibility of the war spilling over in the broader region. the chinese seem too isolationist to put troops in iraq, and the russians (and chinese) would probably back iran intervening before they'd ever put themselves there in the first place.
it is much more complicated than russia or china. you have some pretty involved governments in the area that are closely monitoring and assessing the possible scenerios in iraq. i won't get into it but patrick might have some in depth information about those dynamics. not that i agree with his doctrines. but sure, if i was fighting a war, i'd like him to be my field general.
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