Iraq wasnt really a long belligerant regime. we used them quite effectively as a foil to iran in the 80's and should have used them to find osama. now we are worried about the influence of iran instead of the tyranny of saddam. africa''s chokin on its coca cola baby...
well i remember talking to a friend before the war and we both agreed the US wouldn't possibly go through all the trouble to drum up support in the world and invade iraq while isolating so many of our allies unless we were 100% certain iraq had the WMD. but we weren't. that's why i think obama would just as soon pull out.
right, and i think obama will be willing to use force - from the air, exactly like clinton. but i still think obama will pull most of the ground troops out either way.
But to say that Iraq is mainly about oil is misleading... because it is only a partial truth.
While I agree with that statement, I'd also argue that a ME w/out oil would be sparsely populated and of little interest to the western world.
Without oil people like Saddam Hussein would have very little power and certinaly no resources to build a strong military. So, I do think it's fair to paint the whole situation with a broad brush.
All along I've always said that I can understand and possibly in some way support this iraq adventure if Bush & Co. were honest about it.
First and foremost, honest about oil being finite and something we need to conserve. Rather than Cheney saying America's suburban way of life is non-negotiable.
Secondly, educating the American public why we need sercure and safe access to this resource. After all Texas crude played a big part in the Allies win in WWII. The 1980's oil glut played a big part in the collapse of the USSR. Not to mention the millions of uses for this very valuable product.
But...instead we get politicians giving speeches filled with empty platitudes about the war on terror and ending the war. Nary a scant mention of the underlying cause.
IF Clinton is the nominee, all mccain has to do is get a decent healthcare plan, and pick a not so scary VP (I actually like Condoleeza) and he has my vote.
I am thinking that if Hillary wins, with McCain at the helm, the republicans have a chance to enlarge their tent. I think that a lot of people, including many minorities will hold resent towards the Clintons. IF they win it will not be because of the issues (they have not changed their message since Iowa) it will be because of a picture of a turban (leaked by her staff), a 'as far as i know' on the muslim question (in 60 minutes), and other nasty smears.
I have seen pundits already painting Clinton and the democrats as the new racists. They are being careful, they even staged the McCain-Cunningham fight to make a point. They will go out of their way to not smear (officially) Obama (even Rove has said it).
All I am saying is that IF Clinton is the nominee, moderate McCain will have a chance to change the official face of the republican party.
we need to stop this war if, for no other reason (and there are of course better reasons) than this country needs our money to pull out of this recession, which is going to get very bad
War costs:
$100,000 per minute (my....God...!!!)
"Iraq war costs could top $2 trillion"
Basically, Bush put us in a war that can't be won and will have sent us into what could be a catastrophic financial/economic period.
Just think about what our country could be like if this kind of cash was spent on infrastructure, education, etc.
McCain will be more of the same. I just don't want more of the same.
I would not suggest an immediate pull out, of course.
It's like a wound that has a large stick in it, pull it out and it'll bleed more, but leave it in and you'll still die.
All I am suggesting is that we can't take a "the Iraqi war was not a mistake" approach, as McCain has.
We also need to focus on is improving our country. If we don't, we'll be on a downward spiral that can't be recovered from, which we are headed towards more and more each day (think the value of the dollar).
If McCain did win, we would be headed further down the same track. We need middle class tax cuts, health care, etc. No more breaks for the wealthy (which don't seem to be feeling a thing, judging by the sheer number of high end real estate developments that are selling out in days).
Yup, Bush f'd up the entire deal to the point that it kill our country.
I really think some people need to be put in jail for fraud, Bush/Cheney impeached, etc. It'll never happen, but to me lying to a country to start a war is about the worst thing a human could do.
I think there are bad guys everywhere. It's like a naive ivy tower white guy walking into some inner city gang area randomly pointing a gun. He's gonna get shot, but if he weren't in the wrong place, there would be peace (in a relative sense).
I dunno, I agree there are problems that need addressing, but I don't see how we can ever make it better. Shit, even the oil ain't worth it now!
I wish I believed that we could establish peace and allow Irag to mature into a capable free nation, but I just can't see how that is possible. There are too many nut jobs everywhere and too much corruption.
I'd love to be proven wrong, but I also think that continued occupation at these prices will bankrupt our country. Analysts differ in opinion, but I do think this will have a direct impact on our economy (it has to) and could really put us into the worst recession/depression in 80 years.
Again, hope this is just a pessimistic/extreme view point, but I don't see any info or news to the contrary.
Sen. John McCain, traveling in the Middle East to promote his foreign policy expertise, misidentified in remarks Tuesday which broad category of Iraqi extremists are allegedly receiving support from Iran.
He said several times that Iran, a predominately Shiite country, was supplying the mostly Sunni militant group, al-Qaeda...
McCain said he and two Senate colleagues traveling with him continue to be concerned about Iranian operatives "taking al-Qaeda into Iran, training them and sending them back."
Pressed to elaborate, McCain said it was "common knowledge and has been reported in the media that al-Qaeda is going back into Iran and receiving training and are coming back into Iraq from Iran, that's well known. And it's unfortunate." A few moments later, Sen. Joseph Lieberman, standing just behind McCain, stepped forward and whispered in the presidential candidate's ear. McCain then said: "I'm sorry, the Iranians are training extremists, not al-Qaeda."
this is the guy with the supposedly rock-solid foreign policy experience?
when you say that the insurgents are 'thugs' - i tend to agree in general.
when you state: "Do not obscure the essential difference between us and them. Between our civilizations", then i hear racism hiding behind support for democracy and freedom.
what IS the essential difference between our civilizations? and if what you proffer is true (god forbid), then there is NO reason to stay and fight to create a "democratic" Iraq. you can't have it both ways. you can't suggest we NEED to be there for the sake of the people, of the future of a 'democratic' Iraq, and the whole region, and then condemn them to being a people - a whole 'civilization' that is so essentially different from ours as to demand continued military action for however long it takes. in that case, let's get serious and wipe them all out - men, women and children - just to make sure.
either the insurgents are mere criminals and thugs, in which case the military operations need to act that way, or there is something more profound about the fact that the presence of large numbers of American forces is itself a de-stabilizing factor - much less the de-stabilization cause by the invasion and destruction of the existing social fabric some 5 years ago.
if at the end of the day, - especially after we learned there were no WMDs, after we no categorically that there were no links to Al Qeada, that if the only current justification is to get rid of Saddam Hussein, then why couldn't we have just assisinated him and be done with it?
isn't it the height of arrogance and ignorance to assume that only America the moral imperative to go half way around the world to "teach" another nation a lesson - whether they asked for it or not, and then condemn them to unending war just because they haven't learned the lesson.
While Obama is giving speeches about race and Hillary is trying deperately for a re-vote in MI & FL there hasn't been jack in the media about McCain. I sure the democrats have something saved up, ready to release when the politics finally turn Dem vs. Rep, but right now I imagine it isn't bad being McCain.
After 2006 I heard a lot about how dysfunctional the republican party was, which I agree, but 2008 is showing us the democrats are equally screwed up.
A slip of the tongue is one thing: the campaign trail is taxing on all its travelers, but since he has gotten it wrong multiple times, what does it say about his understanding of this complicated issue?
While traditional media have something of a priapism for Senator McCain, issues like this will always be ignored in favor of his self-styled "Maverick", "Straight-Talk Express" persona (circa 2000) that they have locked in an unending embrace. If the media actually gave a damn about issues and not stories, they would more closely examine their Hero. Aqua, I believe we'll be seeing some appropriate scrutiny in the near future, once the general election is begun.
yeah a poor and tasteless joke .. you can tell in the video McChange was surprised one of the largest exports to iran was cigarettes. which led to the idiotic 'joke' reaction to that fact.
Another reason for favoring Obama is his middle name Hussein, which is also the name of the third Shiite Imam who is highly respected in Iran.
people like to laugh about what makes them most uncomfortable to relieve those feelings as a natural coping mechanism. at least we know he is human by his flaws a very sick one.
he can't even speak with out looking down to read and his voice gets worse by the day with age, this guy could never lead let alone get it up with out 3x the Viagra of a regular joe.
whenever i read this thread, with the "IAC" in caps, i think about the old-timey numero-roboputer-motron, ENIAC...maybe it sounds similar, or maybe b/c it's outdated like mccain? maybe. because you can't get email on the ENIAC, baby. and you sure as shit can't google. now way. so don't even try.
Are you a McCainIAC?
wow...just wow.
nothing wrong with parking garages. paul rudolph even gave 'em a go.
Iraq wasnt really a long belligerant regime. we used them quite effectively as a foil to iran in the 80's and should have used them to find osama. now we are worried about the influence of iran instead of the tyranny of saddam. africa''s chokin on its coca cola baby...
well i remember talking to a friend before the war and we both agreed the US wouldn't possibly go through all the trouble to drum up support in the world and invade iraq while isolating so many of our allies unless we were 100% certain iraq had the WMD. but we weren't. that's why i think obama would just as soon pull out.
right, and i think obama will be willing to use force - from the air, exactly like clinton. but i still think obama will pull most of the ground troops out either way.
i felt the same way myself, actually. especially with bush in the whitehouse and his axis of evil speech.
this conversation seems similar to one we had some time ago
no, not that long ago. like last year.
John, this does not look good for you;
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/02/20/john-mccain-affair-links_n_87690.html
While I agree with that statement, I'd also argue that a ME w/out oil would be sparsely populated and of little interest to the western world.
Without oil people like Saddam Hussein would have very little power and certinaly no resources to build a strong military. So, I do think it's fair to paint the whole situation with a broad brush.
The whole WMD argument is something I just cannot buy. I don't doubt that Saddam had some very lethal weapons. But the USA had just come out of the cold war. All the experience from decades of spying and we could never find the weapons? I just cannot believe that. This is the same gov't that could find lost russian subs in the middle of the Pacific....then go retreive it. I believe we are in agreement on that.
All along I've always said that I can understand and possibly in some way support this iraq adventure if Bush & Co. were honest about it.
First and foremost, honest about oil being finite and something we need to conserve. Rather than Cheney saying America's suburban way of life is non-negotiable.
Secondly, educating the American public why we need sercure and safe access to this resource. After all Texas crude played a big part in the Allies win in WWII. The 1980's oil glut played a big part in the collapse of the USSR. Not to mention the millions of uses for this very valuable product.
But...instead we get politicians giving speeches filled with empty platitudes about the war on terror and ending the war. Nary a scant mention of the underlying cause.
IF Clinton is the nominee, all mccain has to do is get a decent healthcare plan, and pick a not so scary VP (I actually like Condoleeza) and he has my vote.
I am thinking that if Hillary wins, with McCain at the helm, the republicans have a chance to enlarge their tent. I think that a lot of people, including many minorities will hold resent towards the Clintons. IF they win it will not be because of the issues (they have not changed their message since Iowa) it will be because of a picture of a turban (leaked by her staff), a 'as far as i know' on the muslim question (in 60 minutes), and other nasty smears.
I have seen pundits already painting Clinton and the democrats as the new racists. They are being careful, they even staged the McCain-Cunningham fight to make a point. They will go out of their way to not smear (officially) Obama (even Rove has said it).
All I am saying is that IF Clinton is the nominee, moderate McCain will have a chance to change the official face of the republican party.
the republican party is dead, they are about total intolerance and protecting their own class and ass. move on
can i not respect them without agreeing that they are 'better than us'? we all got our things to do...
yup
we need to stop this war if, for no other reason (and there are of course better reasons) than this country needs our money to pull out of this recession, which is going to get very bad
War costs:
$100,000 per minute (my....God...!!!)
"Iraq war costs could top $2 trillion"
Basically, Bush put us in a war that can't be won and will have sent us into what could be a catastrophic financial/economic period.
Just think about what our country could be like if this kind of cash was spent on infrastructure, education, etc.
McCain will be more of the same. I just don't want more of the same.
I would not suggest an immediate pull out, of course.
It's like a wound that has a large stick in it, pull it out and it'll bleed more, but leave it in and you'll still die.
All I am suggesting is that we can't take a "the Iraqi war was not a mistake" approach, as McCain has.
We also need to focus on is improving our country. If we don't, we'll be on a downward spiral that can't be recovered from, which we are headed towards more and more each day (think the value of the dollar).
If McCain did win, we would be headed further down the same track. We need middle class tax cuts, health care, etc. No more breaks for the wealthy (which don't seem to be feeling a thing, judging by the sheer number of high end real estate developments that are selling out in days).
Yup, Bush f'd up the entire deal to the point that it kill our country.
I really think some people need to be put in jail for fraud, Bush/Cheney impeached, etc. It'll never happen, but to me lying to a country to start a war is about the worst thing a human could do.
I think there are bad guys everywhere. It's like a naive ivy tower white guy walking into some inner city gang area randomly pointing a gun. He's gonna get shot, but if he weren't in the wrong place, there would be peace (in a relative sense).
I dunno, I agree there are problems that need addressing, but I don't see how we can ever make it better. Shit, even the oil ain't worth it now!
I wish I believed that we could establish peace and allow Irag to mature into a capable free nation, but I just can't see how that is possible. There are too many nut jobs everywhere and too much corruption.
I'd love to be proven wrong, but I also think that continued occupation at these prices will bankrupt our country. Analysts differ in opinion, but I do think this will have a direct impact on our economy (it has to) and could really put us into the worst recession/depression in 80 years.
Again, hope this is just a pessimistic/extreme view point, but I don't see any info or news to the contrary.
I dont know whether to laugh or cry.
i'm guessing that's the puppy video
i won't click on that
but i will cry
aw too cute!
from the dailykos:
Sen. John McCain, traveling in the Middle East to promote his foreign policy expertise, misidentified in remarks Tuesday which broad category of Iraqi extremists are allegedly receiving support from Iran.
He said several times that Iran, a predominately Shiite country, was supplying the mostly Sunni militant group, al-Qaeda...
McCain said he and two Senate colleagues traveling with him continue to be concerned about Iranian operatives "taking al-Qaeda into Iran, training them and sending them back."
Pressed to elaborate, McCain said it was "common knowledge and has been reported in the media that al-Qaeda is going back into Iran and receiving training and are coming back into Iraq from Iran, that's well known. And it's unfortunate." A few moments later, Sen. Joseph Lieberman, standing just behind McCain, stepped forward and whispered in the presidential candidate's ear. McCain then said: "I'm sorry, the Iranians are training extremists, not al-Qaeda."
this is the guy with the supposedly rock-solid foreign policy experience?
Well. He is old. old. old. old. His pick for running mate will matter a lot - just picture Lieberman as president in a few years...
Why do people like to believe the U.S. military is like a warmer, fuzzier March of Dimes?
when you say that the insurgents are 'thugs' - i tend to agree in general.
when you state: "Do not obscure the essential difference between us and them. Between our civilizations", then i hear racism hiding behind support for democracy and freedom.
what IS the essential difference between our civilizations? and if what you proffer is true (god forbid), then there is NO reason to stay and fight to create a "democratic" Iraq. you can't have it both ways. you can't suggest we NEED to be there for the sake of the people, of the future of a 'democratic' Iraq, and the whole region, and then condemn them to being a people - a whole 'civilization' that is so essentially different from ours as to demand continued military action for however long it takes. in that case, let's get serious and wipe them all out - men, women and children - just to make sure.
either the insurgents are mere criminals and thugs, in which case the military operations need to act that way, or there is something more profound about the fact that the presence of large numbers of American forces is itself a de-stabilizing factor - much less the de-stabilization cause by the invasion and destruction of the existing social fabric some 5 years ago.
if at the end of the day, - especially after we learned there were no WMDs, after we no categorically that there were no links to Al Qeada, that if the only current justification is to get rid of Saddam Hussein, then why couldn't we have just assisinated him and be done with it?
isn't it the height of arrogance and ignorance to assume that only America the moral imperative to go half way around the world to "teach" another nation a lesson - whether they asked for it or not, and then condemn them to unending war just because they haven't learned the lesson.
While Obama is giving speeches about race and Hillary is trying deperately for a re-vote in MI & FL there hasn't been jack in the media about McCain. I sure the democrats have something saved up, ready to release when the politics finally turn Dem vs. Rep, but right now I imagine it isn't bad being McCain.
After 2006 I heard a lot about how dysfunctional the republican party was, which I agree, but 2008 is showing us the democrats are equally screwed up.
*smells a generalization*
Patrick, McCain has made such a mistake, and on more than one occasion.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6GBdyws5YU&feature=related
http://thinkprogress.org/2008/04/08/mccain-confused-about-al-qaeda-again-suggests-its-a-sect-of-shiites/
A slip of the tongue is one thing: the campaign trail is taxing on all its travelers, but since he has gotten it wrong multiple times, what does it say about his understanding of this complicated issue?
While traditional media have something of a priapism for Senator McCain, issues like this will always be ignored in favor of his self-styled "Maverick", "Straight-Talk Express" persona (circa 2000) that they have locked in an unending embrace. If the media actually gave a damn about issues and not stories, they would more closely examine their Hero. Aqua, I believe we'll be seeing some appropriate scrutiny in the near future, once the general election is begun.
as well as the biggest loss in history
what is the biggest one now i wonder, anybody know?
honestly, this guy is atrociously scary, malignantly negligent, and a horrible idea for president.
more of his bullshit rhetoric here.
Don't tell me 'killing Iranians' is a joke asshole! Because Hitler used to joke about 'killing Jews' too!
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1001326.html
yeah a poor and tasteless joke .. you can tell in the video McChange was surprised one of the largest exports to iran was cigarettes. which led to the idiotic 'joke' reaction to that fact.
Another reason for favoring Obama is his middle name Hussein, which is also the name of the third Shiite Imam who is highly respected in Iran.
ha!
people like to laugh about what makes them most uncomfortable to relieve those feelings as a natural coping mechanism. at least we know he is human by his flaws a very sick one.
Happy birthday John!
Congratulations on a great pick for VP in Sarah Palin!!
I wonder if he has her picture at his bedside, just in case he needs to call her at 3:00 am in the morning?
he can't even speak with out looking down to read and his voice gets worse by the day with age, this guy could never lead let alone get it up with out 3x the Viagra of a regular joe.
whenever i read this thread, with the "IAC" in caps, i think about the old-timey numero-roboputer-motron, ENIAC...maybe it sounds similar, or maybe b/c it's outdated like mccain? maybe. because you can't get email on the ENIAC, baby. and you sure as shit can't google. now way. so don't even try.
^ i tried to post a photo of mighty ENIAC but failed, when i jammed the width piece into the code. ah well. y'all know about ENIAC anyway.
thanks emilio!
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