yeah, times are bad and many are turning to frivolousness.
or sheer stupidity and meanness. I really think that archinect wasn't always like this - the idiocy meter is up and I've stopped posting.
i havent been on here that long, but when i did join 2 months ago, it did seem like there was a shitty attitude at times. if you old timers really want to place your stamp on a holy forum. i'd get a clue from what the "pick-up artists" did when they first started their forums about how to pick up girls.. back in 1999, before the tv show. Until then there will be good stuff with a mix of garbage on here forever, "diabase" and "tkarch" included. architecture can be artistically-inclined and well artists can be crazy. no one on here or in the profession is going to change that.
Orhan is totally unacceptable to come in and start posting 144 characters or less diatribes just because you can in this forum and lessen the value of something that took years and many thoughtful posts by other members to build up.
if it is unacceptable, then why is it being accepted (by way of being tolerated) by the moderators?
also, in my opinion, is archinect really a sum of its thoughtful posts? the centre ville of archinect, its downtown, is a cacophonic mesh of basically personal communication encouraging a sort of communal core to this site: Thread Central, where you served apple pies and dog pictures. in my opinion, what was "built up", this community of liberty bells and wards and vados and mdlers, in archinect is not necessarily bound to what was "thoughtful". these people could have been non-architects, uneducated and not so thoughtful and yet, might readily have still bonded. and when all these people pass away, the forum will not register it with the new fadetoblackto's.
the past of a cyber forum is less reifying than that of a real time place.
i am happy that archinect is basically not moderated (only in extreme cases), and in the long run things always settle down. there are peaks of new, interesting or even annoying posts or posters. i remember a similar time when SOULIKEIT was really pissing everybody off....eventually he/she faded away.
tammuz, actually when i said built, i meant people who have something to say like yourself. i don't necessarily find it so interesting someone opening a dozen or so new threads in 10 minutes just because they are 'bored.' then if it starts to repeat itself every day it becomes a nuisance and pushes away other threads out of the way. as simple as that.
yes there is a community of some sort here and you might not call it or like it but you are a part of it too.
if somebody is pushing their narcissism on my face, i should be able to call it 'stop.'
thread central is an interesting thread as to, it built up its own space and people avoid it for many reasons including their contempt for apple pie and dog talk. it perfectly knows why others are not posting in it yet couple dozen people find it spatially comforting and familiar and they post there. it is not force fed and it is unique in a way where most people personally know and met each other.
Thread Central was the begining of the end of this forum. Thread Central declared, "We are the aristocracy of this board".
And Orhan, Javier and other moderators do us no favors with their political loaded posts drawing out the emotional responses of other archinectors. Its only a comunity if you agree with them, which is no way to have a forum.
Excuse me? Now I have to be called a racist and profane by one of the dear leaders of the board? No thanks. I'll be sure to NOT recomend this site to other architects looking for a place to go on the internet.
frankly, i don't find myself communally bound to this 'place' or its members and i have been here for a long time now. i am only occasionely interested in some, few, of the topics raised here and my personal identity has little gravity here. it takes more than certain ways of contribution to elect yourself into that core community. perhaps, you have to be actually amused by their dog pictures and their diy car-fixing on weekends. i find that stuff as irrelevant to my interest as those diatribes that concern you. or does the blabla spewed by an old member hold more value than by a new member's?
there is a certain hypocrisy in having someone, who might be very sweet natured, like liberty bell...to claim: I've been avoiding posting here because I'm so completely one of the old timers that everyone thinks is also somehow in a position of power. I'm not.
in fact, she is, she wields the confidence to declare this. and she must know it. not because she is a moderator but because she is part of a core archinect clique...however nice and well meaning its members are.
just to be clear, i'm not being captious for the sake of it and i don't blame her or this clique.
but lets not pretend that it only takes intellectual and thoughtful participation to be an integral member of this place. you can be sweetly trivial and intellectually vapid here and it won't be frowned upon and you might hold more influence on individual posts.
to be fair, one must recognize that there was a growing anti-social clique, paradoxical that might sound, with evilplatypus and a few satellites of dissenting rather bitter-sounding youngsters.
This is exactly the problem with the forum. People like Orhan can call someone a racist and profane without reason. I have never posted a racist remark and maybe skirted the edge of profanity but who hasnt? The hyper sensitivity of Orhan and others when disagreements arise is stifling to any conversation. Hundreds of times I have had to post responses to Orhan, Javier or Holz or Beta who repeatedly and unrelentingly post subtle anti-American, Anti-Business or anti-anything else in a never-ending stream of self righteous indignation and woe be to those who dare confront them.
I think it has become quite clear that archinect supports a one sided discussion and view point by this point in it's history. It should be more up front about it rather than pretending to be an "open" forum.
Once you allow editors to roam the boards you have moderation, even if you pretend otherwise.
"I dont give crap what religion you follow except that in my experience the muslims are trouble. My neighborhood in Chicago hosts a lot of faiths, I don't care what they are, except for the Muslims. They are rude, incitefull and a general pain in the ass and refuse to assimilate or even try to blend into American life. Send them back, they dont deserve American or Swiss Citizenship. They are an Antidemocratic society and will never integrate unless they refute their traditional ways which support such lovely ideals as their Jihad or holy wars. Fuck 'em all. We have been too nice as it is and it was repaid the destruction of our World Trade Centers."
come again, whats the problem with voicing anyone's anti-anythings? if you haven't been racist and you haven't been censored, jack klompus, then what is your issue?
I stand by my statement that is not racist. I invite you to my neighborhood and to live among them for a year and see if your opinion changes.
1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.
I do not believe I am better than them, just that many of them are un-american and unfit for life in the west.
I do not believe we should deny them rights, but we should make them respect ours
I believe point number 3 is more directed at me by my lovely muslim neighbors than by my posting on an anonymous board.
why are you posting if you don't like it here? just out of curiosity, you know?
i didn't remember the racist stuff jack, and was willing to believe you , but sorry that stuff is racist, whether you care to admit it or not. but you know, it is still up there and searchable so i guess the editors, speaking up as they are, are not censoring you. says something, doesn't it? these editors don't do too much editing at all.
that is not entirely normal on the web, so i say enjoy it, and your anger, because in some places you would be forced to visit this site as a lurker and nothing more.
somehow jack i get the impression you don't think many americans are fit for life in america ;-)
regarding: Jack Klompus, posted on 12/11/09 at 19:54
jack, you are a hyper-sensitive man. i suggest you see a counselor before you take the matter into your own hands...
but anyway.. let's not turn this thread into jack's 'me and the muslims' thing.;.)
Maybe FP and Orhan would like to post the rest of the discussion for context?
And TAMUZ , I have seen you before on this board with some pretty inflamatory, any-Isreali fight for Palastein liberation stuff. So be careful with the racist paint brush.
do you think i keep a record of what you have said and in what context? is it even necessary?
you say the same thing all the time like the broken record jack.. all you do is blame others for singling you out, denying you your rights and you are right at all times..
(and since when it is racist to sympathize with palestinian plight? There are thousands of israelis sympathize with palestinians.)
Great! Thank you. You have all done a great job at exhibiting some of the behavior I was originally
Now that all the problems are out there, why do you think that so many people are likely to be rude, overly obnoxious and otherwise act like morons?
Anonymity.
At Archinect you can change your screen name after you have made your account, hardly anyone reveals their actual identity and comments made about subjects that relate to the 'real world' (such as where you work) are disencouraged.
Behind the mask of the username, people come here and make comments that they would never dream of making in 'real life'.
As more outlets for 'real life' synchronization with your online persona become available via Facebook, LinkedIn, Architizer, etc.
For instance, Jack Klompus, while steadfastily agreeing with comments he made of a racial tone on the internet behind the mask, would surely have a different opinion if say, he was speaking to a group of Muslims in his own community or while applying for a job where the principal was a Muslim.
Of course there are positive and negative aspects to anonymity but perhaps instead of outright subjective censorship there could be a system put in place that compels people to reveal their identity...
Hundreds of times I have had to post responses to Orhan, Javier or Holz or Beta who repeatedly and unrelentingly post subtle anti-American, Anti-Business or anti-anything else in a never-ending stream of self righteous indignation and woe be to those who dare confront them.
um... right.
1. you don't have to post anything. and who cares if javier or anyone else posts something that's pro-other countries? this is an international board, clown. not everyone is going to be beating the drums of american exceptionalism. if you don't like it, you've always got LGF and free republic to vent your racist, anti-worker/anti-europe frustrations. please don't direct your idiot friends to this website. there's been enough of that lately.
2. i'm not anti-business or anti-american. far from it. but i AM pro-worker. pro-science. pro-environment. pro-innovation. based on your posts, im pretty sure you're against all of those things.
3. i'm never subtle about anything.
4. i'm not buying any of the AEI/heritage foundation/faux noise/let's ruin america for all but the top 2% B.S. you continually bring to the discussion. as the 'necttends to run a younger artistic crowd, naturally it's a little more progressive. also, the group here is international, and most countries aren't buying the failed neocon utopia bit, either.
5. you should CYA on calling out others on the self-righteous indignation front, jacko. hypocrisy is an awful, awful thing.
6. gee, you still can't see you're a racist, jack? really? really? i mean seriously. really?
I do not believe we should deny them rights, but we should make them respect ours
and in doing so, you would violate there rights.
Great! Thank you. You have all done a great job at exhibiting some of the behavior I was originally referring to!
Now that all the problems are out there, why do you think that so many people are likely to be rude, overly obnoxious and otherwise act like morons?
Anonymity.
At Archinect you can change your screen name after you have made your account, hardly anyone reveals their actual identity and comments made about subjects that relate to the 'real world' (such as where you work) are disencouraged.
Behind the mask of the username, people come here and make comments that they would never dream of making in 'real life'.
Theory : As more outlets for 'real life' synchronization with your online persona become available via Facebook, LinkedIn, Architizer, etc. more people turn to Archinect to vent their anger and confusion through the alter-ego.
For instance, Jack Klompus, while steadfastily agreeing with comments he made of a racial tone on the internet behind the mask, would surely have a different opinion if say, he was speaking to a group of Muslims in his own community or while applying for a job where the principal was a Muslim.
Of course there are positive and negative aspects to anonymity but perhaps instead of outright subjective censorship there could be a system put in place that compels people to reveal their identity...
So now you want to pick a fight with me to Orhan? Obviously you must keep a record because your posting my past comments and seem to be able to locate them quickly.
the old-timers are old-timers because we like this place and like to come around and see what's up when we're at lunch, having coffee in the morning, etc. sometimes even (gasp!) when we're talking on the phone or between tasks. we come because - when not so negative - archinect can be informative, entertaining, and can connect us to people we might want to know better. it's certainly worked that way for me.
thread central has been welcoming to anyone that sticks around and becomes known. tammuz, you may have been around for a while but i'm guessing you've changed your name. i don't know who you are. it's not that you're not welcomed, it's that we have no context from which to understand who 'tammuz' is.
there are certainly people in tc with whom i don't share political or religious beliefs, but i'm glad they're there. just like i'm glad to have people with whom i disagree in my facebook group. keeps things interesting.
nothing says archinect has to be about architecture. it's about a social space for interaction. i'd suggest everyone embrace what good archinect can provide, ignore the politics if you choose (i do ignore it fairly often, unless something draws me in) and treat it like what it is: a way to connect with those with similar interests.
the negative stuff - i can usually look over it. i commented on one thread yesterday, just wondering what a certain over-enthusiastic poster gets from his intentional provocations. you know? what's the thrill? he thought i was pissed, which is funny.
lorem: IMO, this forum is headed to the scrapheap. Anything remotely resembling a thoughtful, intelligent conversation evolves almost instantly to irrelevance and a spiteful argument between individual posters. The owners of the forum don't seem to care, or if they do care, are not willing to undertake any action designed to restore the utility of what was, at one time, a pretty good place to spend some time. It's really sad.
Hate speech is one place where *the law* (not archinect, but the law, the american justice system) has placed limits on freedom of speech because it threatens the safety of an individual or group, it actually does harm to citizens by creating an environment of hate. There are muslims on this forum... Are you directing your comments at them? Don't you think your comments would be offensive and seem completely ignorant to me if I were a muslim?
The other place limits of free speech have happened are with regard to obscenities... pornography and violence, etc. It's not that these things cannot exist, but the argument for why it is okay *legally* to limit them is that you cannot impose obscenities on peopel (i.e. plaster them up in public places where people are forced to be subjected to them) because these things also threaten *harm* on individuals: the legal argument being that it can influence children and creates an unsafe environment that, in the case of pornography, harms the freedom of women by objectifying them... You can debate this as well, but you can't post pornographic pictures or obscenities on a public forum because it's actually illegal...
You probably do have a point that this forum tends towards towards the political left, although I've had some pretty real debates with some of the right wing members of the forum...
But I don't think offense at your comments about muslims are left or right... Your comments *are* prejudice. I think most educated people would point out that they are an unfair and hateful generalization: even if what you say about the muslims you've met in your neighborhood is true, your comments are a gross mischaracterization and generalization with regards to a diverse religion that has 1.57 billion people... Why can't you just say "your neighbors" instead of characterizing an entire quarter of the world's population based on your limited *midwestern city* experience of a handful of people in your neighborhood?
I grew up in the Chicago area so I can sort of understand where you are coming from... the idea of the *melting pot* where all people regardless of origin come to a place and "blend together"... But that is a very local midwestern phenomenon... It's not like that most places, in the States and in the rest of the world... For most people who live in other cities, "diversity" doesn't just mean people with different skin color who all "blend together and fit in"... "Diversity" means actually allowing people to live together but allow for different cultural perspectives, in most places, people *are* actually different, they actually have different traditions and languages and customs and they can live together without being the same or acting the same... This exists, this is how most cities are...
If you lived in a different neighborhood, you might find that the Chinese people or blacks or hispanics, or Italians, or Jews, or Mormons, or Anglicans don't fit with your idea of "being american"... What then? Are you going to banish everyone who doesn't act like you do? They are citizens too, they have the same rights as you... what is to say that they shouldn't banish *you*?
You can argue that *cultural diversity* isn't good... Maybe it's not. Maybe different people *should* live in different places... You can present that argument... I wouldn't agree, but that's a point of view, and I think if you can defend that position, people would debate you, and that is fine, but that is not what you are saying. You are saying that "muslims are unamerican and not fit for life in the west" which is simply prejudice and your personal opinion. The reason that is not acceptable (by law) is that it borders on hate speech, incites prejudice against a particular group... You are free to say those things in a private setting, but you just can't legally say things like that on a public forum...
yes jack klompus; i'm adamantly anti-Israel. that doesn't make me racist, i have no qualms with the race or religion of Israelis but by their preclusion of palestinian-arab, and others', rightful belonging to their land by elevating Jewish religio-ethnicity into a rabid nationalism. the country is called Palestine and it belongs to endemic christians, moslems and jews...not colonialists.
if that makes me a racist, well then it also makes you an idiot.
i also disagree with holz. this is not really an international forum; its largely and unavoidably North American-centric. perhaps he means there are a lot of internationally-minded americans who frequent this site.
Steven Warden, it doesn't matter 'who' i am or what my context is..and thats partially my point.
Brink I appreciate the response but let me re-post my context from the old thread dug up by the instigators and pot stirring element of the archinect crowd;
My post following the one published for all to see:
"Let Me clarify the above - after 9/11 I saw an increase at least 5 fold of the number of headscarves, burka and general traditional muslim garb as if 911 was a moment to proclaim your nationality. If my culture had just committed an atrocity on the scale of 911 the last thing I would do is promote the custom dress but this is exactly what the majority of the Muslims in America chose to do. I have no feelings for them.
Bounce them, they dont deserve our freedom. And for those who do cherish our freedoms I honestly feel bad for them getting painted with the same anti-western brush. But thats the way the ball bounces."
My provincialism led me to the conclusion that an increase in public display of cultural dress and actions in the wake of such an attrocity means a large portion of the imported culture is in open defiance of the culture they live in. My provincial attitude is and has been accepting of a lot of people but no group has had such a abrasive existence in such large numbers within the western world. and no group since the Japanese and Germans has had such a potentially damaging trajectory. The poor Japanese were put in camps on the west coast, the Germans being far to numerous started changing their names, and stopped speaking German in respect to their NEW homeland. I see no such capitulation from the muslims. In fact it seems we are supposed to be sorry to them, or thats the way my Provincial, midwestern brain comprehends it.
I guess the moderators only wanted posts from people who didnt want to ban minarets, too bad, I think the counter argument is much more contemporary and relevant than their tired ass diversity game in 2010.
The whole strength of American culture is precisely that it is (relatively) multi-cuiltural and open - drawing its strength from the assimilation and integration of immigrants. That's the main thing we have going for us in the longterm, unless one really believes in the White Man's Burden as a determinent of national success. It's the only thing that differentiates our capabilities from those of the Europeans, the Chinese or anybody else.
Without multiculturalism - and our national confidence in multiculturalism - we might as well practice kowtowing. Our new Chinese masters will expect that we'll all have at least that one skill...
I'm pessimistic but not that pessimistic. The odds are stacked against our continued prosperity as it is...
what's really sad here is that a well-intentioned thread, meant to discuss both the future of Archinect and ways to make it more valuable to all, has been hijacked by certain self-absorbed individuls so they can engage in a bitter personal argument.
as loremipsum says in his opening post: "you can't open a thread without seeing someone's belligerent idiocy put on display"
I just don't see that. I can assure you that I have desire to engage in a personal argument here. I'm just very much personally interested in the big-picture issues that'll shape our society in the yaers to come and in perspectives on it. That does not mean that we're self-absorbed.
i think 'multiculturalism' is more of a british , and to an extent european, than an american thing. the US is nominally a "melting pot". therefor transformation into a medley rather than the identifiable subsistence of multiple cultures.
it seems a lot of people need to calm down a bit about how much they care about what a website says
no one can really pick a fight with you on a message board
it's really simple to end, as you just ignore it
of course its easy to lose sight of this from time to time, but to carry on for pages and pages?
really?
i may not really be that old yet, but i have learned that no matter where you go, there are going to be people who disagree with you. and there is nothing you can do to really change their mind. trying to, and then getting angry and beligerant about it is a complete waste of time
As the perpetual database that it is, do you think that the historians will look back to this online community for clues to a movement characterized by... Archinect?
yea, and Paul Petrunia will be hailed as the true prophet...c'mon, man, this forum is basically like a water cooler (and that's shown nowhere better than at Thread Central) and sometimes like a late night college era conversation after a couple of beer and maybe a few tokes. Or maybe it's like the public square, where all opinions will be aired, including pessimism, racism, and all the other gnarly human characteristics. It's also a great way to quickly exchange good information from many sources. But historians looking back on all this as a movement?...methinks someone is exaggerating a bit.
Urbanist: this comment is not directed to you individually but is more general in its intent. IMO the self-absorption comes not so much from a particular person's views on a particular topic as the lack of respect for the intent of this tread.
I believe Archinect welcomes intelligent dialogue on any topic. But, very little of what's posted above has much, if anything, to do with the topic that caused loremipsum to initiate this thread. the personal invective began to creep in after about 20 posts and hasn't let up yet.
I think where we differ is in our interpretation of the intent of the thread, then. Lor raised the question about why all the sadness and pessimism and whether this prevailing mood reflects negatively on ourselves as professionals, on the site, and on the industry as a whole. I for one have tried, as have others, to respond specifically to the question posed by pointing out that the attitudes of the site's proposers reflect trends in society at large and not merely the personality of the posters - this is a a time for pessimism, for many of us, and that we shouldn't dress up the national mood for pessmism just because we want to impress our potential bosses (or the one large firm CEO that Lor says frequents these boards).
I frankly have no idea what Orhan and a few others are arguing about above, but I do think that most of the posts have stayed true to the question asked as opposed, perhaps, to the question that one might argue SHOULD have been asked.
Why is there an expectation that archinect should function differently than any other forum on the internet or, for that matter, exhibit attitudes that are more tempered than other form of communication between any other group of people? Posters' contributions here range from disrespectful, to helpful, to annoying as hell, to self-serving, to racist, to intelligent, to informative, etc...and sometimes the people who post disrespectful, bigoted crap in one thread also post excellent, informative comments on others.
I think there's an unrealistic expectation that contributors must be at their very best behavior at all times, always considering the feelings of others despite participating in discussions that are often contentious and/or controversial. I believe it's actually helpful to be confrontational sometimes. And there's nothing wrong with pessimism. And, frankly, some people don't deserve respectful answers to their posts. I say this knowing very well that I've participated in some of my own heated exchanges and have been called some pretty nasty shit because of my opinions...and I've done the same to others, often without regret. But generally, most people here are very helpful (especially when posting about professional practice and licensing issues, schools, portfolio critiques, etc). Some 'random tangents' go off course, but that's kinda what that category is there for.
I'll admit that it's unfortunate that some people don't want to post on these threads because they want to avoid the occasional idiotic comment, but (sorry to say this) that's kinda their problem. It's an anonymous, public internet forum. There's only so much you can expect.
it seems a lot of people need to calm down a bit about how much they care about what a website says
no one can really pick a fight with you on a message board
it's really simple to end, as you just ignore it
That's exactly right, marmkid.
There is no "problem" here at Archinect. The Forum is what it is, and the relative lack of moderation helps it be that way.
loremipsum, it's great to meet you. As I hope everyone who cares knows, my screen name links to my real identity, which has been up for years. Architecture - meaning all the people involved in architecture in various individual countries and in the world as well - is a small, small community. To be visible on Archinect and not anonymous takes a lot of faith in the general goodwill of your fellow humans. Maybe naivete, too, but that's fine for me.
Well stated, FP. Didn't some famous writer once say "If you don't want to risk be offended by another person, don't leave the house." Granted,t his was pre-internet.
To be visible on Archinect and not anonymous takes a lot of faith in the general goodwill of your fellow humans.
cliche'd and not really, it takes much more faith in your own goodwill. a person who distrusts her goodwill is more likely to remain anonymous for fear of.. unforseen reprecussions perhaps. hence my previous post its more of a feat to retain respectabilityandanonymity.
Archinect, Attitude and the Future.
yeah, times are bad and many are turning to frivolousness.
or sheer stupidity and meanness. I really think that archinect wasn't always like this - the idiocy meter is up and I've stopped posting.
wow, didn't think other people would be as decietful and clever as me. I posted multiple fake job listings to thwart the competition while looking for a job in NYC earlier this fall. For me, it wasn't just an 'intelligence' operation to see who my competition was; actually I just wanted to waste other people's time applying to jobs that did not exist, so that I had a better chance getting any actual job oppurtunities. I don't feel bad...but now I wonder: did I also apply to fake jobs listings? btw. I was also tempted to create a alternate alias email, thru which I would harrass and threaten firms offering 'unpaid jobs' and "internships". Sad that our current job climate calls for 'black tactics' while seeking unemployment
that is an ingenious idea ckl - i wish I could have thought of that sooner before I myself applied to all the frivolous ads
i havent been on here that long, but when i did join 2 months ago, it did seem like there was a shitty attitude at times. if you old timers really want to place your stamp on a holy forum. i'd get a clue from what the "pick-up artists" did when they first started their forums about how to pick up girls.. back in 1999, before the tv show. Until then there will be good stuff with a mix of garbage on here forever, "diabase" and "tkarch" included. architecture can be artistically-inclined and well artists can be crazy. no one on here or in the profession is going to change that.
Orhan is totally unacceptable to come in and start posting 144 characters or less diatribes just because you can in this forum and lessen the value of something that took years and many thoughtful posts by other members to build up.
if it is unacceptable, then why is it being accepted (by way of being tolerated) by the moderators?
also, in my opinion, is archinect really a sum of its thoughtful posts? the centre ville of archinect, its downtown, is a cacophonic mesh of basically personal communication encouraging a sort of communal core to this site: Thread Central, where you served apple pies and dog pictures. in my opinion, what was "built up", this community of liberty bells and wards and vados and mdlers, in archinect is not necessarily bound to what was "thoughtful". these people could have been non-architects, uneducated and not so thoughtful and yet, might readily have still bonded. and when all these people pass away, the forum will not register it with the new fadetoblackto's.
the past of a cyber forum is less reifying than that of a real time place.
i am happy that archinect is basically not moderated (only in extreme cases), and in the long run things always settle down. there are peaks of new, interesting or even annoying posts or posters. i remember a similar time when SOULIKEIT was really pissing everybody off....eventually he/she faded away.
tammuz, actually when i said built, i meant people who have something to say like yourself. i don't necessarily find it so interesting someone opening a dozen or so new threads in 10 minutes just because they are 'bored.' then if it starts to repeat itself every day it becomes a nuisance and pushes away other threads out of the way. as simple as that.
yes there is a community of some sort here and you might not call it or like it but you are a part of it too.
if somebody is pushing their narcissism on my face, i should be able to call it 'stop.'
thread central is an interesting thread as to, it built up its own space and people avoid it for many reasons including their contempt for apple pie and dog talk. it perfectly knows why others are not posting in it yet couple dozen people find it spatially comforting and familiar and they post there. it is not force fed and it is unique in a way where most people personally know and met each other.
Thread Central was the begining of the end of this forum. Thread Central declared, "We are the aristocracy of this board".
And Orhan, Javier and other moderators do us no favors with their political loaded posts drawing out the emotional responses of other archinectors. Its only a comunity if you agree with them, which is no way to have a forum.
^ regardless of all the profanities and racist remarks, nobody is stopping you. right?
Excuse me? Now I have to be called a racist and profane by one of the dear leaders of the board? No thanks. I'll be sure to NOT recomend this site to other architects looking for a place to go on the internet.
frankly, i don't find myself communally bound to this 'place' or its members and i have been here for a long time now. i am only occasionely interested in some, few, of the topics raised here and my personal identity has little gravity here. it takes more than certain ways of contribution to elect yourself into that core community. perhaps, you have to be actually amused by their dog pictures and their diy car-fixing on weekends. i find that stuff as irrelevant to my interest as those diatribes that concern you. or does the blabla spewed by an old member hold more value than by a new member's?
there is a certain hypocrisy in having someone, who might be very sweet natured, like liberty bell...to claim:
I've been avoiding posting here because I'm so completely one of the old timers that everyone thinks is also somehow in a position of power. I'm not.
in fact, she is, she wields the confidence to declare this. and she must know it. not because she is a moderator but because she is part of a core archinect clique...however nice and well meaning its members are.
just to be clear, i'm not being captious for the sake of it and i don't blame her or this clique.
but lets not pretend that it only takes intellectual and thoughtful participation to be an integral member of this place. you can be sweetly trivial and intellectually vapid here and it won't be frowned upon and you might hold more influence on individual posts.
to be fair, one must recognize that there was a growing anti-social clique, paradoxical that might sound, with evilplatypus and a few satellites of dissenting rather bitter-sounding youngsters.
This is exactly the problem with the forum. People like Orhan can call someone a racist and profane without reason. I have never posted a racist remark and maybe skirted the edge of profanity but who hasnt? The hyper sensitivity of Orhan and others when disagreements arise is stifling to any conversation. Hundreds of times I have had to post responses to Orhan, Javier or Holz or Beta who repeatedly and unrelentingly post subtle anti-American, Anti-Business or anti-anything else in a never-ending stream of self righteous indignation and woe be to those who dare confront them.
I think it has become quite clear that archinect supports a one sided discussion and view point by this point in it's history. It should be more up front about it rather than pretending to be an "open" forum.
Once you allow editors to roam the boards you have moderation, even if you pretend otherwise.
"I dont give crap what religion you follow except that in my experience the muslims are trouble. My neighborhood in Chicago hosts a lot of faiths, I don't care what they are, except for the Muslims. They are rude, incitefull and a general pain in the ass and refuse to assimilate or even try to blend into American life. Send them back, they dont deserve American or Swiss Citizenship. They are an Antidemocratic society and will never integrate unless they refute their traditional ways which support such lovely ideals as their Jihad or holy wars. Fuck 'em all. We have been too nice as it is and it was repaid the destruction of our World Trade Centers."
- Jack Klompus, posted on 12/11/09 at 19:54
come again, whats the problem with voicing anyone's anti-anythings? if you haven't been racist and you haven't been censored, jack klompus, then what is your issue?
I stand by my statement that is not racist. I invite you to my neighborhood and to live among them for a year and see if your opinion changes.
1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.
I do not believe I am better than them, just that many of them are un-american and unfit for life in the west.
I do not believe we should deny them rights, but we should make them respect ours
I believe point number 3 is more directed at me by my lovely muslim neighbors than by my posting on an anonymous board.
yes, that must have warranted "hyper-sensitivity"
If you found yourself in a 2 page 3 day arguement with Holz, Beta and Orhan you would probably open a vien first
why are you posting if you don't like it here? just out of curiosity, you know?
i didn't remember the racist stuff jack, and was willing to believe you , but sorry that stuff is racist, whether you care to admit it or not. but you know, it is still up there and searchable so i guess the editors, speaking up as they are, are not censoring you. says something, doesn't it? these editors don't do too much editing at all.
that is not entirely normal on the web, so i say enjoy it, and your anger, because in some places you would be forced to visit this site as a lurker and nothing more.
somehow jack i get the impression you don't think many americans are fit for life in america ;-)
regarding: Jack Klompus, posted on 12/11/09 at 19:54
jack, you are a hyper-sensitive man. i suggest you see a counselor before you take the matter into your own hands...
but anyway.. let's not turn this thread into jack's 'me and the muslims' thing.;.)
Maybe FP and Orhan would like to post the rest of the discussion for context?
And TAMUZ , I have seen you before on this board with some pretty inflamatory, any-Isreali fight for Palastein liberation stuff. So be careful with the racist paint brush.
do you think i keep a record of what you have said and in what context? is it even necessary?
you say the same thing all the time like the broken record jack.. all you do is blame others for singling you out, denying you your rights and you are right at all times..
(and since when it is racist to sympathize with palestinian plight? There are thousands of israelis sympathize with palestinians.)
btw, are you evilplytapus v.2?
Great! Thank you. You have all done a great job at exhibiting some of the behavior I was originally
Now that all the problems are out there, why do you think that so many people are likely to be rude, overly obnoxious and otherwise act like morons?
Anonymity.
At Archinect you can change your screen name after you have made your account, hardly anyone reveals their actual identity and comments made about subjects that relate to the 'real world' (such as where you work) are disencouraged.
Behind the mask of the username, people come here and make comments that they would never dream of making in 'real life'.
As more outlets for 'real life' synchronization with your online persona become available via Facebook, LinkedIn, Architizer, etc.
For instance, Jack Klompus, while steadfastily agreeing with comments he made of a racial tone on the internet behind the mask, would surely have a different opinion if say, he was speaking to a group of Muslims in his own community or while applying for a job where the principal was a Muslim.
Of course there are positive and negative aspects to anonymity but perhaps instead of outright subjective censorship there could be a system put in place that compels people to reveal their identity...
um... right.
1. you don't have to post anything. and who cares if javier or anyone else posts something that's pro-other countries? this is an international board, clown. not everyone is going to be beating the drums of american exceptionalism. if you don't like it, you've always got LGF and free republic to vent your racist, anti-worker/anti-europe frustrations. please don't direct your idiot friends to this website. there's been enough of that lately.
2. i'm not anti-business or anti-american. far from it. but i AM pro-worker. pro-science. pro-environment. pro-innovation. based on your posts, im pretty sure you're against all of those things.
3. i'm never subtle about anything.
4. i'm not buying any of the AEI/heritage foundation/faux noise/let's ruin america for all but the top 2% B.S. you continually bring to the discussion. as the 'necttends to run a younger artistic crowd, naturally it's a little more progressive. also, the group here is international, and most countries aren't buying the failed neocon utopia bit, either.
5. you should CYA on calling out others on the self-righteous indignation front, jacko. hypocrisy is an awful, awful thing.
6. gee, you still can't see you're a racist, jack? really? really? i mean seriously. really?
I do not believe we should deny them rights, but we should make them respect ours
and in doing so, you would violate there rights.
face it jacko, you're a racist.
^ Please ignore... (edit function would be nice)
Great! Thank you. You have all done a great job at exhibiting some of the behavior I was originally referring to!
Now that all the problems are out there, why do you think that so many people are likely to be rude, overly obnoxious and otherwise act like morons?
Anonymity.
At Archinect you can change your screen name after you have made your account, hardly anyone reveals their actual identity and comments made about subjects that relate to the 'real world' (such as where you work) are disencouraged.
Behind the mask of the username, people come here and make comments that they would never dream of making in 'real life'.
Theory : As more outlets for 'real life' synchronization with your online persona become available via Facebook, LinkedIn, Architizer, etc. more people turn to Archinect to vent their anger and confusion through the alter-ego.
For instance, Jack Klompus, while steadfastily agreeing with comments he made of a racial tone on the internet behind the mask, would surely have a different opinion if say, he was speaking to a group of Muslims in his own community or while applying for a job where the principal was a Muslim.
Of course there are positive and negative aspects to anonymity but perhaps instead of outright subjective censorship there could be a system put in place that compels people to reveal their identity...
So now you want to pick a fight with me to Orhan? Obviously you must keep a record because your posting my past comments and seem to be able to locate them quickly.
the old-timers are old-timers because we like this place and like to come around and see what's up when we're at lunch, having coffee in the morning, etc. sometimes even (gasp!) when we're talking on the phone or between tasks. we come because - when not so negative - archinect can be informative, entertaining, and can connect us to people we might want to know better. it's certainly worked that way for me.
thread central has been welcoming to anyone that sticks around and becomes known. tammuz, you may have been around for a while but i'm guessing you've changed your name. i don't know who you are. it's not that you're not welcomed, it's that we have no context from which to understand who 'tammuz' is.
there are certainly people in tc with whom i don't share political or religious beliefs, but i'm glad they're there. just like i'm glad to have people with whom i disagree in my facebook group. keeps things interesting.
nothing says archinect has to be about architecture. it's about a social space for interaction. i'd suggest everyone embrace what good archinect can provide, ignore the politics if you choose (i do ignore it fairly often, unless something draws me in) and treat it like what it is: a way to connect with those with similar interests.
the negative stuff - i can usually look over it. i commented on one thread yesterday, just wondering what a certain over-enthusiastic poster gets from his intentional provocations. you know? what's the thrill? he thought i was pissed, which is funny.
lorem: IMO, this forum is headed to the scrapheap. Anything remotely resembling a thoughtful, intelligent conversation evolves almost instantly to irrelevance and a spiteful argument between individual posters. The owners of the forum don't seem to care, or if they do care, are not willing to undertake any action designed to restore the utility of what was, at one time, a pretty good place to spend some time. It's really sad.
Jack Klompus...
Hate speech is one place where *the law* (not archinect, but the law, the american justice system) has placed limits on freedom of speech because it threatens the safety of an individual or group, it actually does harm to citizens by creating an environment of hate. There are muslims on this forum... Are you directing your comments at them? Don't you think your comments would be offensive and seem completely ignorant to me if I were a muslim?
The other place limits of free speech have happened are with regard to obscenities... pornography and violence, etc. It's not that these things cannot exist, but the argument for why it is okay *legally* to limit them is that you cannot impose obscenities on peopel (i.e. plaster them up in public places where people are forced to be subjected to them) because these things also threaten *harm* on individuals: the legal argument being that it can influence children and creates an unsafe environment that, in the case of pornography, harms the freedom of women by objectifying them... You can debate this as well, but you can't post pornographic pictures or obscenities on a public forum because it's actually illegal...
You probably do have a point that this forum tends towards towards the political left, although I've had some pretty real debates with some of the right wing members of the forum...
But I don't think offense at your comments about muslims are left or right... Your comments *are* prejudice. I think most educated people would point out that they are an unfair and hateful generalization: even if what you say about the muslims you've met in your neighborhood is true, your comments are a gross mischaracterization and generalization with regards to a diverse religion that has 1.57 billion people... Why can't you just say "your neighbors" instead of characterizing an entire quarter of the world's population based on your limited *midwestern city* experience of a handful of people in your neighborhood?
I grew up in the Chicago area so I can sort of understand where you are coming from... the idea of the *melting pot* where all people regardless of origin come to a place and "blend together"... But that is a very local midwestern phenomenon... It's not like that most places, in the States and in the rest of the world... For most people who live in other cities, "diversity" doesn't just mean people with different skin color who all "blend together and fit in"... "Diversity" means actually allowing people to live together but allow for different cultural perspectives, in most places, people *are* actually different, they actually have different traditions and languages and customs and they can live together without being the same or acting the same... This exists, this is how most cities are...
If you lived in a different neighborhood, you might find that the Chinese people or blacks or hispanics, or Italians, or Jews, or Mormons, or Anglicans don't fit with your idea of "being american"... What then? Are you going to banish everyone who doesn't act like you do? They are citizens too, they have the same rights as you... what is to say that they shouldn't banish *you*?
You can argue that *cultural diversity* isn't good... Maybe it's not. Maybe different people *should* live in different places... You can present that argument... I wouldn't agree, but that's a point of view, and I think if you can defend that position, people would debate you, and that is fine, but that is not what you are saying. You are saying that "muslims are unamerican and not fit for life in the west" which is simply prejudice and your personal opinion. The reason that is not acceptable (by law) is that it borders on hate speech, incites prejudice against a particular group... You are free to say those things in a private setting, but you just can't legally say things like that on a public forum...
Wow.
This is sad.
lets see,
yes jack klompus; i'm adamantly anti-Israel. that doesn't make me racist, i have no qualms with the race or religion of Israelis but by their preclusion of palestinian-arab, and others', rightful belonging to their land by elevating Jewish religio-ethnicity into a rabid nationalism. the country is called Palestine and it belongs to endemic christians, moslems and jews...not colonialists.
if that makes me a racist, well then it also makes you an idiot.
i also disagree with holz. this is not really an international forum; its largely and unavoidably North American-centric. perhaps he means there are a lot of internationally-minded americans who frequent this site.
Steven Warden, it doesn't matter 'who' i am or what my context is..and thats partially my point.
Brink I appreciate the response but let me re-post my context from the old thread dug up by the instigators and pot stirring element of the archinect crowd;
My post following the one published for all to see:
"Let Me clarify the above - after 9/11 I saw an increase at least 5 fold of the number of headscarves, burka and general traditional muslim garb as if 911 was a moment to proclaim your nationality. If my culture had just committed an atrocity on the scale of 911 the last thing I would do is promote the custom dress but this is exactly what the majority of the Muslims in America chose to do. I have no feelings for them.
Bounce them, they dont deserve our freedom. And for those who do cherish our freedoms I honestly feel bad for them getting painted with the same anti-western brush. But thats the way the ball bounces."
My provincialism led me to the conclusion that an increase in public display of cultural dress and actions in the wake of such an attrocity means a large portion of the imported culture is in open defiance of the culture they live in. My provincial attitude is and has been accepting of a lot of people but no group has had such a abrasive existence in such large numbers within the western world. and no group since the Japanese and Germans has had such a potentially damaging trajectory. The poor Japanese were put in camps on the west coast, the Germans being far to numerous started changing their names, and stopped speaking German in respect to their NEW homeland. I see no such capitulation from the muslims. In fact it seems we are supposed to be sorry to them, or thats the way my Provincial, midwestern brain comprehends it.
I guess the moderators only wanted posts from people who didnt want to ban minarets, too bad, I think the counter argument is much more contemporary and relevant than their tired ass diversity game in 2010.
The Klompus thing is pretty disturbing.
The whole strength of American culture is precisely that it is (relatively) multi-cuiltural and open - drawing its strength from the assimilation and integration of immigrants. That's the main thing we have going for us in the longterm, unless one really believes in the White Man's Burden as a determinent of national success. It's the only thing that differentiates our capabilities from those of the Europeans, the Chinese or anybody else.
Without multiculturalism - and our national confidence in multiculturalism - we might as well practice kowtowing. Our new Chinese masters will expect that we'll all have at least that one skill...
I'm pessimistic but not that pessimistic. The odds are stacked against our continued prosperity as it is...
Jack,
We are not the French.
what's really sad here is that a well-intentioned thread, meant to discuss both the future of Archinect and ways to make it more valuable to all, has been hijacked by certain self-absorbed individuls so they can engage in a bitter personal argument.
as loremipsum says in his opening post: "you can't open a thread without seeing someone's belligerent idiocy put on display"
quizzical,
I just don't see that. I can assure you that I have desire to engage in a personal argument here. I'm just very much personally interested in the big-picture issues that'll shape our society in the yaers to come and in perspectives on it. That does not mean that we're self-absorbed.
i think 'multiculturalism' is more of a british , and to an extent european, than an american thing. the US is nominally a "melting pot". therefor transformation into a medley rather than the identifiable subsistence of multiple cultures.
it seems a lot of people need to calm down a bit about how much they care about what a website says
no one can really pick a fight with you on a message board
it's really simple to end, as you just ignore it
of course its easy to lose sight of this from time to time, but to carry on for pages and pages?
really?
i may not really be that old yet, but i have learned that no matter where you go, there are going to be people who disagree with you. and there is nothing you can do to really change their mind. trying to, and then getting angry and beligerant about it is a complete waste of time
Does anyone care to reveal themselves as actual people?
I am a real (digital) person.
:)
its more of a feat to retain respectability andanonymity.
it's really not a feat at all
yea, and Paul Petrunia will be hailed as the true prophet...c'mon, man, this forum is basically like a water cooler (and that's shown nowhere better than at Thread Central) and sometimes like a late night college era conversation after a couple of beer and maybe a few tokes. Or maybe it's like the public square, where all opinions will be aired, including pessimism, racism, and all the other gnarly human characteristics. It's also a great way to quickly exchange good information from many sources. But historians looking back on all this as a movement?...methinks someone is exaggerating a bit.
Urbanist: this comment is not directed to you individually but is more general in its intent. IMO the self-absorption comes not so much from a particular person's views on a particular topic as the lack of respect for the intent of this tread.
I believe Archinect welcomes intelligent dialogue on any topic. But, very little of what's posted above has much, if anything, to do with the topic that caused loremipsum to initiate this thread. the personal invective began to creep in after about 20 posts and hasn't let up yet.
quizzical,
I think where we differ is in our interpretation of the intent of the thread, then. Lor raised the question about why all the sadness and pessimism and whether this prevailing mood reflects negatively on ourselves as professionals, on the site, and on the industry as a whole. I for one have tried, as have others, to respond specifically to the question posed by pointing out that the attitudes of the site's proposers reflect trends in society at large and not merely the personality of the posters - this is a a time for pessimism, for many of us, and that we shouldn't dress up the national mood for pessmism just because we want to impress our potential bosses (or the one large firm CEO that Lor says frequents these boards).
I frankly have no idea what Orhan and a few others are arguing about above, but I do think that most of the posts have stayed true to the question asked as opposed, perhaps, to the question that one might argue SHOULD have been asked.
as I wrote, the comment was not directed to you individually
Why is there an expectation that archinect should function differently than any other forum on the internet or, for that matter, exhibit attitudes that are more tempered than other form of communication between any other group of people? Posters' contributions here range from disrespectful, to helpful, to annoying as hell, to self-serving, to racist, to intelligent, to informative, etc...and sometimes the people who post disrespectful, bigoted crap in one thread also post excellent, informative comments on others.
I think there's an unrealistic expectation that contributors must be at their very best behavior at all times, always considering the feelings of others despite participating in discussions that are often contentious and/or controversial. I believe it's actually helpful to be confrontational sometimes. And there's nothing wrong with pessimism. And, frankly, some people don't deserve respectful answers to their posts. I say this knowing very well that I've participated in some of my own heated exchanges and have been called some pretty nasty shit because of my opinions...and I've done the same to others, often without regret. But generally, most people here are very helpful (especially when posting about professional practice and licensing issues, schools, portfolio critiques, etc). Some 'random tangents' go off course, but that's kinda what that category is there for.
I'll admit that it's unfortunate that some people don't want to post on these threads because they want to avoid the occasional idiotic comment, but (sorry to say this) that's kinda their problem. It's an anonymous, public internet forum. There's only so much you can expect.
no one can really pick a fight with you on a message board
it's really simple to end, as you just ignore it
That's exactly right, marmkid.
There is no "problem" here at Archinect. The Forum is what it is, and the relative lack of moderation helps it be that way.
loremipsum, it's great to meet you. As I hope everyone who cares knows, my screen name links to my real identity, which has been up for years. Architecture - meaning all the people involved in architecture in various individual countries and in the world as well - is a small, small community. To be visible on Archinect and not anonymous takes a lot of faith in the general goodwill of your fellow humans. Maybe naivete, too, but that's fine for me.
will you be my friend liberty bell?
Well stated, FP. Didn't some famous writer once say "If you don't want to risk be offended by another person, don't leave the house." Granted,t his was pre-internet.
Aquilla I love your screen name. And how quickly you're upping your post count!
cliche'd and not really, it takes much more faith in your own goodwill. a person who distrusts her goodwill is more likely to remain anonymous for fear of.. unforseen reprecussions perhaps. hence my previous post its more of a feat to retain respectability and anonymity.
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