You don't have a right to own a car, zoolander, so there's no loss of freedom when you can't afford one. You do have a right to use the publicly-funded streets, and there have been lawsuits over streets built without sidewalks by people who don't own cars. They have the freedom to bring those lawsuits.
I agree that limited buying power relates to limited choice, of course, but it's not correlated to limited freedom. You're tossing the word "freedom" around pretty loosely, here. I think freedom means something a lot more significant than what you're talking about.
So what do you want? You seem pretty anti-government, but if the government set up a bikeshare program would you use it, or would that be the government oppressing your ability to own a car?
The government in dublin set up a bike share scheme, a total con funded by private companies in return for billboards.
Firstly, you need a credit card to hire a bike, a piece of plastic I refuse to own. Secondly a massive deposit is needed.
Thridly, billboards were located in unsuitable positions, inhibiting driver vision (other than seeing the ads) and causing accidents.
I dont think it is too much for adults willing to work to be able to find a job in their own country.
Government are taking away our independance piece by piece, with CARBON TAXES being another significant step in this process.
“One of the emails under scrutiny, written by Phil Jones, the centre’s director, in 1999, reads: “I’ve just completed Mike’s Nature [the science journal] trick of adding in the real temps to each series for the last 20 years (ie, from 1981 onwards) and from 1961 for Keith’s to hide the decline,” reports the London Telegraph.
LB as much as I respect your opinions on this board I have to disagree with you on some of the limitations of freedom. The western world has worked hard, innovated and brought billions of people out of poverty and given then a quality of life and material goods and the CHOICE, which equals economic freedom. Maybe we could be cleaner, and no doubt the push for fuel efficient or even fuel-less vehicles may produce something breakthrough. After necessity is the mother of invention. But to adopt policy that effects our power over our way of life, our businesses on such a lopsided scale, whereby we pay 3 or 4 times the taxes (maybe more) than 3rd world countries who are taking our jobs with the help of the Al Gores, is just plain dumb. Who do you really think is going to benefit from carbon rationing? The factory in Chicago or the one in Delhi owned by a shell corporation in America with investors in Europe? They will literally be given the work, free to emit, while their competition in Chicago is left for dead.
People really need to wake up and see whats going on. Maybe they should take a trip to Gary, IN or South Chicago or Scranton, PA to see. Or why not go to Silicon valley and see the 100,000SF Intel plant thats decommissioning itself because of CA new 0 emission requirements for mfr. Yes - the state of CA has managed to shut down Intel and they are moving out of state. Good job guys.
jk3hl, What do you think the total effect would be of capping American Industry, whats left of it? Have you been to Gary, IN? It is a 3rd world country. So are many Industrial regions of America, Detroit comes to mind. In essence the Shame industry, is atoning for it's guilt of American and Western success by creating a 3rd world within our own borders in some sort of solidarity with the people of the developing world. This is bullshit and its gone way too far this time.
I'm in my 50's and I grew up in a time when the world looked to America for answers and solutions, not the UN. People were proud to be American and people all over wanted to be American to because we could lead the world as a locomotive pulls a train. 30 years of relentless America and Western bashing has spread the idea of a global village and many have taken it to heart. The west must be beaten into submission to become a more equal member of the village. This is the core belief of the people bringing this to you. And if you think America is corrupt, you havent seen anything until look at the UN.
Another Key Global Warming writer and cheerleader, George Monbiot writes:
"It’s no use pretending that this isn’t a major blow. The emails extracted by a hacker from the climatic research unit at the University of East Anglia could scarcely be more damaging. I am now convinced that they are genuine, and I’m dismayed and deeply shaken by them.
Yes, the messages were obtained illegally. Yes, all of us say things in emails that would be excruciating if made public. Yes, some of the comments have been taken out of context. But there are some messages that require no spin to make them look bad. There appears to be evidence here of attempts to prevent scientific data from being released, and even to destroy material that was subject to a freedom of information request.
Worse still, some of the emails suggest efforts to prevent the publication of work by climate sceptics, or to keep it out of a report by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change. I believe that the head of the unit, Phil Jones, should now resign."
Zoo - the last person in the world you can quote as having any credibility on the subject of climate change is Andrew Bolt. He is the David Irving of the climate debate.
As noted above:
"Co-authored by 26 climate scientists, The Copenhagen Diagnosis reports that melting of summer Arctic sea ice, loss of the Greenland and Antarctic ice sheets, and projections of the rise in sea levels have accelerated dramatically since 2007.
It finds the statistical global warming trend has continued over the past decade, contradicting assessments by some scientists - including Copenhagen Climate Council chairman Tim Flannery - that there has been a recent cooling."
Tim Flannery is wrong.
J Klompus - the western world has worked hard to produce a system of conspicuous, un-supportable consumption and resource exploitation such that Americans use 25x as much energy as in the developing world - such as India. So you want to maintain your freedom to pollute and deplete resources, but deny that to the rest of the world. you want the rest of the world to not be able to have a 1st world standard of living, if it means You have to live with some degree of social responsibility - after 200 years of exploitation. this is what it comes down to as YOUR freedom of choice.
no one is saying don't have a car - but do you have to have a car that gets only 25mpg? We have had the technology since 1975 to produce cars with 50-60mpg, and yet have regressed - under the banner of freedom and capitalism - to insist on the right to exploit the world without paying for its cost.
the carbon trading schemes are not TAXES - they are measures to implement the true, wholistic cost of using energy, water and resources.
dlb - Please tell me how Im responsible for the plight of the 3rd world? Really? My ancestors didnt have slaves, werent colonialists, they came from a surpressed Ireland. My grandma's parents died in a typhoid outbreak which is why she got to come here. In fact, you could say my family was 3rd world.
In the current 3rd world, theres an population explosion going on because of, well science. There used to be a natural balance of people and the food they could produce in places like Africa and India. But now, thanks to the UN and well intentioned scientists, they can make much more food and get more water, but then turn around and have 5 or 6 babies. The sum total of the UN's efforts has been AN INCREASE IN POOR PEOPLE
So no, I am not responsible for the plight of the 3rd world. But you might be if you support the UN's crazy ass fantasies.
When you are the no.1 country in the world, with all the power and might of the military and a dominant market position, you have no one to blame but yourself.
this sense of American manifest destiny to rule the world and to exploit all its resources for a way of life that demands multiple cars, large-screen TVs, more food - at the lowest possible price - than can be digested, and more rooms in more houses than one can keep track of -well, guess where it leads.
it leads to an ideology of freedom that says corporate American should not be regulated - so lets send jobs overseas. so who is screwing America? -- Americans.
an ideology that says we don't own anything to the future, so lets make as much as possible now - without investment. who's fault is that? -- Americans.
we have presidents that launch unprovoked wars, lying to the world about the evidence for invasion, demanding that "you are with us or against us" and we wonder why no one believes us anymore. whose fault? -- Americans.
an ideology of absolute personal freedom that bears no responsibility for its actions - except to tell the rest of the world what it must do and how it must act like America.
don't deceive yourself, you don't have "economic freedom" - you have an economy that now demands that you consume or it will collapse and disintegrate. Bush supported this and Obama has followed along. there is no "economic freedom" in America to not consume. if you don't consume, then you must be a socialist. so much for choice.
you want to blame everyone else in the world for the decline of America, but you don't want to look at the truth - that it is Americans who are ruining America.
Besides I AM your generation, having turned 56 last week.
i have lived in Houston, and i have lived in Detroit, and i have lived elsewhere in the world, so i have some experience about how cities and governments and societies get greedy, and arrogant and so self-absorbed that they will do anything - except sacrifice their comfort - to maintain an illusion of progress and greatness. the declines of Detroit and Gary, Ind were not caused by invasions, by international deceit or Arab oil producers - their declines were caused by corporate and labor (mis)management who didn't want to innovate; who didn't want to risk a new way of living, and who believed in some god-given-birthright to prosperity and luxury - no matter what actions were to be taken. they have no one to blame but themselves.
if you think America can become a great nation again - by resisting change and not seeing that the future of commerce and living standards will be vastly different than what has gone before - then good luck. go ahead and linger in a past that is increasingly indefensible.
Our generation sucks. We were raised in your image. The apple doesn't fall far from the tree!
But I wouldn't feel bad for us. I wouldn't give us sympathy.
You know why? We everything is said and done... our broke ass generation isn't going to have the money to pay out your retirements, to keep you alive through expensive medical technology or the ability to make payments on all the foreign debt.
Your generation has set our generation up for failure because you couldn't hold one thing sacred, do anything responsibly or show an ounce of altruism.
It may have been your parents who made the bomb but it was your generation that fueled a war machine. It was your generation that couldn't even "win" half the conflicts you started. It was your generation that gave hundreds of millions of dollars to tyrants, despots and militias.
It was your generation that lead to the proliferation of terrorist organizations. It was your generation that pumped Latin America with so much cash and capital to fuel the drug trade. It was your generation that introduced crack to the world. It was your generation that has ruined any mutual beneficial relationship we could have had. It was your generation that has continued to not listen to its own advice. It was your generation that promoted rampant materialism. It was your generation that lead to the dissolution of former society. It was your generation that has created one of the most abusive and restrictive legal systems in the US. It was your generation that promoted spread of gang culture from zero tolerance policies.
I do not like to play the blame game... but here I am.
Our generation has the lowest participation in the workforce in history. We have no money. We have no credit. We're expected to do jobs that no longer exist for 40% if adjusted for inflation of what they paid 30 years ago.
To be able to get a job or move, we have to spend thousands of dollars to do so. We're expected to buy all these things because that's what the threshold your generation has created.
So, you know what, I could really careless whether or not the governments takes all your money. I don't have any. I won't be getting any soon.
Our generation will never ever see a dollar of Medicaid or Social Security. Neither will you.
Thats smart, "I have no money so screw it, I dont care what the taxes are"?
You can blame my generation for a lot of things but it's not like every single person is responsible. I didnt pass the laws, I never drove cars I couldnt afford, I didnt inflate the cost of education by getting too many degrees and in fact I bought mine and my 2 kids'. I didnt ruin the family, take drugs and lose a war. In fact my taxes paid for them. Think before you speak, you sound like a whiner, a person of little action. Maybe thats why in your in the boat your in.
I dont need your taxes anyways. I saved. You can keep them, they are only paying intrest on the debt anyhow.
Jack I respect you too, I just don't agree with all of what you're saying. And my posting on this thread at all was more about yanking zoolander's conspiracy-theory-hysteria chain than anything else. zoolander, again, you choose to not own a credit card - fine. You have the freedom to make that choice. Be happy!
Also, Jack and dlb, I do think America has the potential to be a leader in innovation again - the kind of innovation that truly leads to a more balanced, sustainable, fair globe. Though we seem so mired in doing things status quo that sometimes I get pessimistic.
Here in NZ, we have just passed the 1st 'all gases' ETS scheme just in time for Copenhagen.
A few things on that. As an agricultural nation, we will be hit extremely hard by this. Agriculture accounts for approximately 40% of our emissions. Australia by contrast, runs at about 15%.
Most other countries farming industries are heavily subsidised and run as factory enterprises. NZ Farmers are not subsidised whatsoever and something like 98% of our farms are completely free range - as in, we allow cows to roam free over pasture.
On top of that, we export all of our product which will incure emissions taxes. And our currency is at the beck and call of the US dollar.
Despite all of this, we have the most efficient and successful farming industry in the world.
Forecasts for costs of the ETS over a 70 year period will be $92,000.00 for every citizen or an additional $1314 per annum. The average slary here is a;prox NZ$48,000 pa.
Council Chairman: “This meeting has been convened to discuss some concerns about a recent disturbing disappearance of trees and plants. It’s very alarming. Our best researchers have determined that there’s too many of us on the planet and some of us have just grown too large and eat far too much and thus we are decimating plant life on the planet.”
Dinosaur 1: “Oh, here we go again: blame the plant-eating dinosaurs, it’s always our fault isn’t it? Those so-called researchers are plain wrong! What’s really their agenda here? Most of them are meat eaters (they claim they think better as carnivores) and are always blaming us herbivores for ruining their precious landscape.”
Chairman: “But the evidence is right in front of your eyes: many areas that we formerly depended on for food are dead of all plant life and turning to desert. And there are very many more of us than there used to be: I can barely get a drink at the lake anymore, the lines are so long!”
Dinosaur 2: “Yea, the plants are obviously dying because of you plant-eating dinosaurs…I mean, look at the size of some of you! Why does any creature need to be that big? And those obscenely long necks can strip vegetation clean off of anything!”
Chairman: “But we are already at a crisis point here, and if any catastrophic event were to happen to change the weather suddenly, all plant life would most likely die and then we’ve had it!”
Dinosaur 3: “Oh, that’s right, use scare tactics to frighten us! What could possibly happen that would be so disastrous? Aliens from space, is that it? You make me laugh!”
Chairman: “Well, not very far from here there are witness reports that an object the size of ten mountains has recently plunged to earth: shortly after that the skier grew very dark, blocking out the sun even during the day. We must adress this problem and take some advance precautions.”
Dinosaur 2: “Well, other dinosaurs have been saying that this is an exaggeration, that no object that large could possibly fall to earth, and that the darkening skies are just temporary weather conditions.”
Dinosaur 1: “But this event was witnessed, and the sky is almost black in the middle of the day, and plants and trees are beginning to die off.”
Dinosaur 2: “Yea, you plant-eaters would trumpet these tall tales as fact, since it helps your cause in continuing to denude our landscape! Sheer nonsense, I say!”
Dinosaur 1: “You’re unbelievable! This is a true danger and all you’re interested in is pinning blame!”
Dinosaur 2: “Tsk, tsk, what poppycock: we dinosaurs are the supreme creatures on this planet. We rule it and will continue to rule it for eternity, what can possibly stop us?”
Dinosaur 3: “I second that, and propose that we kill and eat more of these damned plant-eaters who are ruining our planet!”
Chairman: “Order, order! Settle down, please, this is vital to our survival, let’s discuss this in a civil manner!
But the meeting degenerates into all out screaming and then an all out brawl. Meanwhile, totally ignored by the fighting dinosaurs, the sky above them slowly darkens in the middle of the day and the temperature begins to drop........
What most of you fail to do is tie all the different aspect of the agenda together.
The need to have a credit card to hire a bike essentially renders money useless, leading to a cashless society and reduced freedoms.
Carbon Taxes are a corrupt scheme to bring down the western countries, reducing our freedoms and choice. I don't believe in glocal warming can I OPT OUT OF PAYING CARBON TAXES? SOME CHANCE.
Obama has been outed as a liar and bluffer like ALL his predecesors, YET MOST PEOPLE ARE ALWAYS WAITING FOR THE NEXT SAVIOUR.
National Identity cards are used to enfore a police state.
CCTV everywhere is leading to a big brother society.
Vaccinations and this SWINE FLU rubbish are not only robbing billions of taxpayer money, but the vaccinations kill us in the process.
We are getting shafted from every angle, all by schemes designed
and implemented by the elites.
zoolander, you say I'm not tying all the pieces together; one could just as easily say you are adding 2 plus 2 and getting 37.
Yes, you're right to question things, (and I do enjoy the contrariness of your posts) but you need to question them from ALL sides and then not make blanket, overblown statements like "vaccines are killing us". Vaccines don't kill "us". They kill some people, yes, just as any medical procedure can unexpectedly kill some people. But vaccinations protect "us" as a society at such a high level that the tragic and accidental loss of a few is unfortunately part of the cost.
You seem to be accusing Archinect of quashing your request for a news item. Well, as has been said here before, Archinect is privately owned and does have the right to publish what they choose. You can start your own website - tell everyone here about it, please - if you deem something newsworthy: you have that freedom.
I won't be taking any vaccinations. I'll let the masses fight to be first in the que, as the gov tells us supplies are short (same old reverse psychology).
Problems is when they make mandatory vaccination by law!
So there we have it, top scientists who are being used by the government to steer us into oblivion have been ousted as cheat and liars. (We already knew the gov are cheats & liars.)
No point in the greenies even trying to defend the undefendable.
Proof of that the environmental agenda is a fraud.
So there we have it, top scientists who are being used by the government to steer us into oblivion have been ousted as cheat and liars. (We already knew the gov are cheats & liars.)
No point in the greenies even trying to defend the undefendable.
Im not going as far as Zoolander and saying the Green Movement is a total fraud. But the current rush towards Global restructuring of the Industrial Regions is. Growing up the air was literally orange in South Chicago and Gary. Now, I can clearly see the Sears Tower 20 miles away DuPage County. We've made major leaps in quality.
But go to China or India. The air is even worse there than it was in the 1950s here. They arent going to comply. Whos going to force them? Do you know what a Racket is? Its where you collude to force someone out of business and drive that business to your choosing. This is a Global Racket to enforce restrictions and laws on one group while diverting their jobs to another.
Face it - the Green Movement was hijacked and has become a political movement instead.
Some more emails from CRU concerning the divergence of tree ring data pointing to a decline in temps versus their measuring sites which show an increase and how to handle it;
“IMPORTANT NOTE: The data after 1960 should not be used. The tree-ring density records tend to show a decline after 1960 relative to the summer temperature in many high-latitude locations. In this data set this ‘decline’ has been artificially removed in an ad-hoc way, and this means that data after 1960 no longer represent tree-ring density variations, but have been modified to look more like the observed temperatures.”
“NOTE: recent decline in tree-ring density has been ARTIFICIALLY REMOVED to facilitate calibration. THEREFORE, post-1960 values will be much closer to observed temperatures then (sic) they should be which will incorrectly imply the reconstruction is more skilful than it actually is. See Osborn et al. (2004).'
In addition to emails there are many folders of computational formulas and code for analysing data sets, many legit, many others fall into the precarious range between highly questionable (removing MXD data which demonstrate poor correlations with local temperature) to downright fraudulent (replacing MXD data entirely with measured data to reverse a disorderly trend-line).
and from 1998-2008, exxon funnelled $17-$23 million to anti-AGW groups.
just 3 groups have dumped $50 million to anti-AGW groups. most of them aren't even scientists, they're conservative, anti-government, anti-tax think tanks. hell, one even offered tens of thousands of dollars to scientists who could refute IPCC, and there were ZERO TAKERS...
Vaccinations and this SWINE FLU rubbish are not only robbing billions of taxpayer money, but the vaccinations kill us in the process.
you are right... eradication of diseases like polio was a stupid, stupid idea... (well, almost as dumb as folks like jenny mccarthy convincing idiot parents vaccines cause autism)
here's how dumb the swine flu is:
cost of a shot: $10
cost of treatment of a neighbr who's lung collapsed and has been in ICU for 3 weeks: $34,000
Holz - maybe the increased hype surrounding man made global warming and the scare tactics like falling polar bears from airplanes has less to do with caring for the environment and more to do with the plumeting cost of CO2 on the American Exchange;
I love how these forums just devolve and devolve into hysterics.
Tens of thousands of scientists work on climate change. A few of them wrote emails that could be incriminating—and a few of those who wrote emails are considered "bigwigs" in the community of climate change scientists.
So?
There's so much data that supports the notion of global climate change that a few emails can't counter the overwhelming science.
Many, if not most, of the climate change deniers are funded by conservative/libertarian think tanks that are in turn heavily funded by the petroleum industry. Look up Willie Soon, Sallie Baliunas, Roy Spencer, etc. follow the trail of their research. It will take you to both the Marshall Institute and the Heartland Institute, which are funded in part by the American Petroleum Institute. You'll find that these researchers' papers have also been funded by the American Petroleum Institute. Willie Soon Marshall Institute Heartland Institute
etc.
On the flip side, many if not most of the researchers who have discovered climate change trends have been funded by non-partisan agencies or universities, using a verifiable and peer-reviewed process. Sure, it has it's hiccups, but that's a far cry from being bought and owned by a single industry whose very existence depends on climate change being a hoax.
What's interesting to me is that so many of the climate change deniers seem to begin with their libertarian or conservative perspective, which says "less government, less regulation, etc." They then use this political perspective to come up with an argument in which climate science is seen as a hoax. This is the opposite of how legitimate science works.
"No point in the greenies even trying to defend the undefendable."
No zoo, there just isnt much point debating something with people who dont have any genuine interest in actually understanding what theyre talking about. For instance, I dont imagine you'll have much interest in this article describing the "trick" to "hide" the "decline" in question. I dont imagine youre concerned about all that technical sciency stuff about 'calibration', or how 'global average temperatures' doesnt mean the same thing as 'regional data.' After all! How could that vast evil cabal of Illuminati scientists resist all that money they could spend on grants crawling around the wilderness drilling into trees! Nevermind the fucking trillions being made on the other side of the argument, representing 85% of the largest industry on the planet. Weve got to an evil global conspiracy to kill or inconvenience a statistically infinitesimal proportion of the population using vaccines! probably the single most important lifesaving medical advance in human history behind fucking soap.
Jack, while I appreciate your diligence, you must understand that calibration isnt by its nature nefarious. If youve got 6 types of data showing a tightly correlated movement in one direction, and one that is divergent, it could be that that piece of evidence is effected by isolated conditions which drive it from the mean, or that its simply erroneous. If thats the case, weighting that data as a strict 1/7 of the average may not give you the most accurate result. The statistical mechanics of how you deal with that are certainly debatable, but what you and many on the skeptics side are doing is taking minuscule differences in interpretation and using them to question an extraordinarily well defined trend. There are no calibration tricks that change the global trend in a way that helps you. They simply adjust the trend between dangerously steep and catastrophically steep.
Thank you, oe. That was nicely put, and should be directed at Jack Klompus as well.
As my wife--a very moderate person politically--said last night, "even if it turns out the globe isn't warming, isn't curbing our use of fossil fuels and trying to live in a more carbon neutral way a good thing regardless?"
Exactly.
Isn't it ultimately better to use a completely inert energy source (solar, or wind) than to use finite fossil fuels? What I don't understand from the climate change denier crowd is why they don't see this logic. Whether climate change is happening or not, better to use a completely inert energy source, isn't it?
Oh, wait. Could it have to do with James Inhofe and Joe Barton being in the back pocket of Big Petroleum? Could it be that they're whores and shills for a single industry?
Yes, that's it exactly. The biggest anti-climate change loudmouths in this country are handpuppets of the oil industry.
OE - I agree a statisticle sample set needs to have deviation smoothing. However the data packages downloaded are being reported as going well beyond smoothing.
There is also the cherry picking of tree samples, where the IPCC rports used trees with ring samples to better fit the hypothis than other tree ring researchers' showed. In fact theres emails dealing with tree ring scientists who disagreed with what CRU was saying and they to were silenced.
I understand science is an in progress endeavour, and I would argue that "big oil" or "big energy", the people who keep your lights on for a profit, are pretty smart to, and if they could find a way to extract more energy than the Hydro-Carbon bond supplies they would be all over it. Who else has the pockets deep enough to fund the research silly? The government? You guys talk like being productive, big and wealthy is a bad thing. Would rather have big, unproductive wealthy policy makers in control?
There is also the cherry picking of tree samples, where the IPCC rports used trees with ring samples to better fit the hypothis than other tree ring researchers' showed. In fact theres emails dealing with tree ring scientists who disagreed with what CRU was saying and they to were silenced.
And the people at Wired and New Scientist have looked at this and been extraordinarily critical of this as well. I actually completely agree that all the data needs to be put on the table, and its a completely legitimate discussion to be had about just how crazy do we need to go here. What bothers me are all the people out there looking at this and saying "leaked emails prove global warming is a hoax!" when they do absolutely nothing of the kind. Whats being discussed is not 'is this trend real', but 'how catastrophic is it'. Are we dealing with WW2-scale global disaster, or Chicxulub? No matter what, everyone reputable on this subject well agrees that the completely wimpy global effort thus far doesnt come close to adequately addressing either bound.
zoolander, all baiting and crazytalk aside: if you haven't gotten vaccines, then stay inside, all the time, and for sure don't go near any newborn infants who don't have immunity yet. I honestly don't care if you get sick and die via your own freedom of choice - BTW I thought you said we weren't free, so your choice to not get vaccinated seems to refute that, but whatevs - but if you get someone else sick then you truly are impinging on their rights. (And being an anti-science asshole on top of it, but again - whatevs.)
Climate Change Emails Hacked
You don't have a right to own a car, zoolander, so there's no loss of freedom when you can't afford one. You do have a right to use the publicly-funded streets, and there have been lawsuits over streets built without sidewalks by people who don't own cars. They have the freedom to bring those lawsuits.
I agree that limited buying power relates to limited choice, of course, but it's not correlated to limited freedom. You're tossing the word "freedom" around pretty loosely, here. I think freedom means something a lot more significant than what you're talking about.
So what do you want? You seem pretty anti-government, but if the government set up a bikeshare program would you use it, or would that be the government oppressing your ability to own a car?
The government in dublin set up a bike share scheme, a total con funded by private companies in return for billboards.
Firstly, you need a credit card to hire a bike, a piece of plastic I refuse to own. Secondly a massive deposit is needed.
Thridly, billboards were located in unsuitable positions, inhibiting driver vision (other than seeing the ads) and causing accidents.
I dont think it is too much for adults willing to work to be able to find a job in their own country.
Government are taking away our independance piece by piece, with CARBON TAXES being another significant step in this process.
Have you never questioned the gov LB?
GLOBAL WARMING IS A SCAM.
“One of the emails under scrutiny, written by Phil Jones, the centre’s director, in 1999, reads: “I’ve just completed Mike’s Nature [the science journal] trick of adding in the real temps to each series for the last 20 years (ie, from 1981 onwards) and from 1961 for Keith’s to hide the decline,” reports the London Telegraph.
THIS IS UNDEFENDABLE.
LIES, LIES, LIES.
GLOBAL WARMING IS A SCAM TO TAKE OUR FREEDOMS
(whats left of them!).
LB as much as I respect your opinions on this board I have to disagree with you on some of the limitations of freedom. The western world has worked hard, innovated and brought billions of people out of poverty and given then a quality of life and material goods and the CHOICE, which equals economic freedom. Maybe we could be cleaner, and no doubt the push for fuel efficient or even fuel-less vehicles may produce something breakthrough. After necessity is the mother of invention. But to adopt policy that effects our power over our way of life, our businesses on such a lopsided scale, whereby we pay 3 or 4 times the taxes (maybe more) than 3rd world countries who are taking our jobs with the help of the Al Gores, is just plain dumb. Who do you really think is going to benefit from carbon rationing? The factory in Chicago or the one in Delhi owned by a shell corporation in America with investors in Europe? They will literally be given the work, free to emit, while their competition in Chicago is left for dead.
People really need to wake up and see whats going on. Maybe they should take a trip to Gary, IN or South Chicago or Scranton, PA to see. Or why not go to Silicon valley and see the 100,000SF Intel plant thats decommissioning itself because of CA new 0 emission requirements for mfr. Yes - the state of CA has managed to shut down Intel and they are moving out of state. Good job guys.
I request a link to these emails are posted in the NEWS section.
Its only fair to report both sides of the debate.
DUDE. Freedom =/= your money. K? Paying a couple hundred extra dollars when you purchase a car to cover carbon tax isn't 'stealing your freedoms.'
jk3hl, What do you think the total effect would be of capping American Industry, whats left of it? Have you been to Gary, IN? It is a 3rd world country. So are many Industrial regions of America, Detroit comes to mind. In essence the Shame industry, is atoning for it's guilt of American and Western success by creating a 3rd world within our own borders in some sort of solidarity with the people of the developing world. This is bullshit and its gone way too far this time.
I'm in my 50's and I grew up in a time when the world looked to America for answers and solutions, not the UN. People were proud to be American and people all over wanted to be American to because we could lead the world as a locomotive pulls a train. 30 years of relentless America and Western bashing has spread the idea of a global village and many have taken it to heart. The west must be beaten into submission to become a more equal member of the village. This is the core belief of the people bringing this to you. And if you think America is corrupt, you havent seen anything until look at the UN.
Another Key Global Warming writer and cheerleader, George Monbiot writes:
"It’s no use pretending that this isn’t a major blow. The emails extracted by a hacker from the climatic research unit at the University of East Anglia could scarcely be more damaging. I am now convinced that they are genuine, and I’m dismayed and deeply shaken by them.
Yes, the messages were obtained illegally. Yes, all of us say things in emails that would be excruciating if made public. Yes, some of the comments have been taken out of context. But there are some messages that require no spin to make them look bad. There appears to be evidence here of attempts to prevent scientific data from being released, and even to destroy material that was subject to a freedom of information request.
Worse still, some of the emails suggest efforts to prevent the publication of work by climate sceptics, or to keep it out of a report by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change. I believe that the head of the unit, Phil Jones, should now resign."
Zoo - the last person in the world you can quote as having any credibility on the subject of climate change is Andrew Bolt. He is the David Irving of the climate debate.
As noted above:
"Co-authored by 26 climate scientists, The Copenhagen Diagnosis reports that melting of summer Arctic sea ice, loss of the Greenland and Antarctic ice sheets, and projections of the rise in sea levels have accelerated dramatically since 2007.
It finds the statistical global warming trend has continued over the past decade, contradicting assessments by some scientists - including Copenhagen Climate Council chairman Tim Flannery - that there has been a recent cooling."
Tim Flannery is wrong.
J Klompus - the western world has worked hard to produce a system of conspicuous, un-supportable consumption and resource exploitation such that Americans use 25x as much energy as in the developing world - such as India. So you want to maintain your freedom to pollute and deplete resources, but deny that to the rest of the world. you want the rest of the world to not be able to have a 1st world standard of living, if it means You have to live with some degree of social responsibility - after 200 years of exploitation. this is what it comes down to as YOUR freedom of choice.
no one is saying don't have a car - but do you have to have a car that gets only 25mpg? We have had the technology since 1975 to produce cars with 50-60mpg, and yet have regressed - under the banner of freedom and capitalism - to insist on the right to exploit the world without paying for its cost.
the carbon trading schemes are not TAXES - they are measures to implement the true, wholistic cost of using energy, water and resources.
dlb - Please tell me how Im responsible for the plight of the 3rd world? Really? My ancestors didnt have slaves, werent colonialists, they came from a surpressed Ireland. My grandma's parents died in a typhoid outbreak which is why she got to come here. In fact, you could say my family was 3rd world.
In the current 3rd world, theres an population explosion going on because of, well science. There used to be a natural balance of people and the food they could produce in places like Africa and India. But now, thanks to the UN and well intentioned scientists, they can make much more food and get more water, but then turn around and have 5 or 6 babies. The sum total of the UN's efforts has been AN INCREASE IN POOR PEOPLE
So no, I am not responsible for the plight of the 3rd world. But you might be if you support the UN's crazy ass fantasies.
When you are the no.1 country in the world, with all the power and might of the military and a dominant market position, you have no one to blame but yourself.
this sense of American manifest destiny to rule the world and to exploit all its resources for a way of life that demands multiple cars, large-screen TVs, more food - at the lowest possible price - than can be digested, and more rooms in more houses than one can keep track of -well, guess where it leads.
it leads to an ideology of freedom that says corporate American should not be regulated - so lets send jobs overseas. so who is screwing America? -- Americans.
an ideology that says we don't own anything to the future, so lets make as much as possible now - without investment. who's fault is that? -- Americans.
we have presidents that launch unprovoked wars, lying to the world about the evidence for invasion, demanding that "you are with us or against us" and we wonder why no one believes us anymore. whose fault? -- Americans.
an ideology of absolute personal freedom that bears no responsibility for its actions - except to tell the rest of the world what it must do and how it must act like America.
don't deceive yourself, you don't have "economic freedom" - you have an economy that now demands that you consume or it will collapse and disintegrate. Bush supported this and Obama has followed along. there is no "economic freedom" in America to not consume. if you don't consume, then you must be a socialist. so much for choice.
You are so full of hate. I feel bad for your generation.
Jack, that comment was directed more at zoolander. I sympathize with a lot of what you're saying.
exactly why is facing the facts seen as hate?
you want to blame everyone else in the world for the decline of America, but you don't want to look at the truth - that it is Americans who are ruining America.
Besides I AM your generation, having turned 56 last week.
i have lived in Houston, and i have lived in Detroit, and i have lived elsewhere in the world, so i have some experience about how cities and governments and societies get greedy, and arrogant and so self-absorbed that they will do anything - except sacrifice their comfort - to maintain an illusion of progress and greatness. the declines of Detroit and Gary, Ind were not caused by invasions, by international deceit or Arab oil producers - their declines were caused by corporate and labor (mis)management who didn't want to innovate; who didn't want to risk a new way of living, and who believed in some god-given-birthright to prosperity and luxury - no matter what actions were to be taken. they have no one to blame but themselves.
if you think America can become a great nation again - by resisting change and not seeing that the future of commerce and living standards will be vastly different than what has gone before - then good luck. go ahead and linger in a past that is increasingly indefensible.
Hey Jackie...
Our generation sucks. We were raised in your image. The apple doesn't fall far from the tree!
But I wouldn't feel bad for us. I wouldn't give us sympathy.
You know why? We everything is said and done... our broke ass generation isn't going to have the money to pay out your retirements, to keep you alive through expensive medical technology or the ability to make payments on all the foreign debt.
Your generation has set our generation up for failure because you couldn't hold one thing sacred, do anything responsibly or show an ounce of altruism.
It may have been your parents who made the bomb but it was your generation that fueled a war machine. It was your generation that couldn't even "win" half the conflicts you started. It was your generation that gave hundreds of millions of dollars to tyrants, despots and militias.
It was your generation that lead to the proliferation of terrorist organizations. It was your generation that pumped Latin America with so much cash and capital to fuel the drug trade. It was your generation that introduced crack to the world. It was your generation that has ruined any mutual beneficial relationship we could have had. It was your generation that has continued to not listen to its own advice. It was your generation that promoted rampant materialism. It was your generation that lead to the dissolution of former society. It was your generation that has created one of the most abusive and restrictive legal systems in the US. It was your generation that promoted spread of gang culture from zero tolerance policies.
I do not like to play the blame game... but here I am.
Our generation has the lowest participation in the workforce in history. We have no money. We have no credit. We're expected to do jobs that no longer exist for 40% if adjusted for inflation of what they paid 30 years ago.
To be able to get a job or move, we have to spend thousands of dollars to do so. We're expected to buy all these things because that's what the threshold your generation has created.
So, you know what, I could really careless whether or not the governments takes all your money. I don't have any. I won't be getting any soon.
Our generation will never ever see a dollar of Medicaid or Social Security. Neither will you.
Thats smart, "I have no money so screw it, I dont care what the taxes are"?
You can blame my generation for a lot of things but it's not like every single person is responsible. I didnt pass the laws, I never drove cars I couldnt afford, I didnt inflate the cost of education by getting too many degrees and in fact I bought mine and my 2 kids'. I didnt ruin the family, take drugs and lose a war. In fact my taxes paid for them. Think before you speak, you sound like a whiner, a person of little action. Maybe thats why in your in the boat your in.
I dont need your taxes anyways. I saved. You can keep them, they are only paying intrest on the debt anyhow.
Jack I respect you too, I just don't agree with all of what you're saying. And my posting on this thread at all was more about yanking zoolander's conspiracy-theory-hysteria chain than anything else. zoolander, again, you choose to not own a credit card - fine. You have the freedom to make that choice. Be happy!
Also, Jack and dlb, I do think America has the potential to be a leader in innovation again - the kind of innovation that truly leads to a more balanced, sustainable, fair globe. Though we seem so mired in doing things status quo that sometimes I get pessimistic.
Never mind America.
Here in NZ, we have just passed the 1st 'all gases' ETS scheme just in time for Copenhagen.
A few things on that. As an agricultural nation, we will be hit extremely hard by this. Agriculture accounts for approximately 40% of our emissions. Australia by contrast, runs at about 15%.
Most other countries farming industries are heavily subsidised and run as factory enterprises. NZ Farmers are not subsidised whatsoever and something like 98% of our farms are completely free range - as in, we allow cows to roam free over pasture.
On top of that, we export all of our product which will incure emissions taxes. And our currency is at the beck and call of the US dollar.
Despite all of this, we have the most efficient and successful farming industry in the world.
Forecasts for costs of the ETS over a 70 year period will be $92,000.00 for every citizen or an additional $1314 per annum. The average slary here is a;prox NZ$48,000 pa.
For what?
At the Meeting of the Dinosaur Council:
Council Chairman: “This meeting has been convened to discuss some concerns about a recent disturbing disappearance of trees and plants. It’s very alarming. Our best researchers have determined that there’s too many of us on the planet and some of us have just grown too large and eat far too much and thus we are decimating plant life on the planet.”
Dinosaur 1: “Oh, here we go again: blame the plant-eating dinosaurs, it’s always our fault isn’t it? Those so-called researchers are plain wrong! What’s really their agenda here? Most of them are meat eaters (they claim they think better as carnivores) and are always blaming us herbivores for ruining their precious landscape.”
Chairman: “But the evidence is right in front of your eyes: many areas that we formerly depended on for food are dead of all plant life and turning to desert. And there are very many more of us than there used to be: I can barely get a drink at the lake anymore, the lines are so long!”
Dinosaur 2: “Yea, the plants are obviously dying because of you plant-eating dinosaurs…I mean, look at the size of some of you! Why does any creature need to be that big? And those obscenely long necks can strip vegetation clean off of anything!”
Chairman: “But we are already at a crisis point here, and if any catastrophic event were to happen to change the weather suddenly, all plant life would most likely die and then we’ve had it!”
Dinosaur 3: “Oh, that’s right, use scare tactics to frighten us! What could possibly happen that would be so disastrous? Aliens from space, is that it? You make me laugh!”
Chairman: “Well, not very far from here there are witness reports that an object the size of ten mountains has recently plunged to earth: shortly after that the skier grew very dark, blocking out the sun even during the day. We must adress this problem and take some advance precautions.”
Dinosaur 2: “Well, other dinosaurs have been saying that this is an exaggeration, that no object that large could possibly fall to earth, and that the darkening skies are just temporary weather conditions.”
Dinosaur 1: “But this event was witnessed, and the sky is almost black in the middle of the day, and plants and trees are beginning to die off.”
Dinosaur 2: “Yea, you plant-eaters would trumpet these tall tales as fact, since it helps your cause in continuing to denude our landscape! Sheer nonsense, I say!”
Dinosaur 1: “You’re unbelievable! This is a true danger and all you’re interested in is pinning blame!”
Dinosaur 2: “Tsk, tsk, what poppycock: we dinosaurs are the supreme creatures on this planet. We rule it and will continue to rule it for eternity, what can possibly stop us?”
Dinosaur 3: “I second that, and propose that we kill and eat more of these damned plant-eaters who are ruining our planet!”
Chairman: “Order, order! Settle down, please, this is vital to our survival, let’s discuss this in a civil manner!
But the meeting degenerates into all out screaming and then an all out brawl. Meanwhile, totally ignored by the fighting dinosaurs, the sky above them slowly darkens in the middle of the day and the temperature begins to drop........
Yeah, well if a meteor hits were all f*cked regardless of how hot it is.
based on this thread, we're all fucked regardless.....
and anyway, we know that this is what REALLY happened....
LOL at both your last two posts, Emilio!
What most of you fail to do is tie all the different aspect of the agenda together.
The need to have a credit card to hire a bike essentially renders money useless, leading to a cashless society and reduced freedoms.
Carbon Taxes are a corrupt scheme to bring down the western countries, reducing our freedoms and choice. I don't believe in glocal warming can I OPT OUT OF PAYING CARBON TAXES? SOME CHANCE.
Obama has been outed as a liar and bluffer like ALL his predecesors, YET MOST PEOPLE ARE ALWAYS WAITING FOR THE NEXT SAVIOUR.
National Identity cards are used to enfore a police state.
CCTV everywhere is leading to a big brother society.
Vaccinations and this SWINE FLU rubbish are not only robbing billions of taxpayer money, but the vaccinations kill us in the process.
We are getting shafted from every angle, all by schemes designed
and implemented by the elites.
AGAIN ANOTHER REQUEST FOR THE CLIMATE CHANGE EMAILS LINK TO BE HIGHLIGHTED IN THE NEWS SECTION OF ARCHINECT.
Maybe that wouldn't fall in with the pro-greening agenda of this place.
An example of where the West is headed.
Anyone other than the elitists who will reap HUGE profits from the carbon tax SCAM with be caput.
Say goodbye job, hello scavanging (if your not scavanging already!)
zoolander, you say I'm not tying all the pieces together; one could just as easily say you are adding 2 plus 2 and getting 37.
Yes, you're right to question things, (and I do enjoy the contrariness of your posts) but you need to question them from ALL sides and then not make blanket, overblown statements like "vaccines are killing us". Vaccines don't kill "us". They kill some people, yes, just as any medical procedure can unexpectedly kill some people. But vaccinations protect "us" as a society at such a high level that the tragic and accidental loss of a few is unfortunately part of the cost.
You seem to be accusing Archinect of quashing your request for a news item. Well, as has been said here before, Archinect is privately owned and does have the right to publish what they choose. You can start your own website - tell everyone here about it, please - if you deem something newsworthy: you have that freedom.
*will be caput
Top Climatologist Phil Jones who was exposed as lying about climate change in the emails has received £13.7m pounds in grants!!
How would any right thinking person trust such corruption!
http://motls.blogspot.com/2009/11/hacked-hadley-cru-foi2009-files.html
He gets big grants from the government to provide false data to support their environmental (read POLITICAL) agenda.
Who pays the piper calls the tune.
LB, quite right, they own it and can publish what they want.
But they seem like such nice well rounded people who are interested in all sides of the argument in this democratic (ha ha) world we live in.
Vaccines kill millions.
http://searchtube.com/index.php/action::detail/source::YouTube.com/lid::hnNvr9pkOIA/cb::searchtube/theme::searchtube_com/
I won't be taking any vaccinations. I'll let the masses fight to be first in the que, as the gov tells us supplies are short (same old reverse psychology).
Problems is when they make mandatory vaccination by law!
GLOBAL WARMING IS A CON
More like to the sheeple pen!
[/img]http://images.google.co.uk/images?hl=en&um=1&sa=1&q=sheeple&aq=f&oq=&start=0[img]
The old classics.
So there we have it, top scientists who are being used by the government to steer us into oblivion have been ousted as cheat and liars. (We already knew the gov are cheats & liars.)
No point in the greenies even trying to defend the undefendable.
Proof of that the environmental agenda is a fraud.
The old classics.
So there we have it, top scientists who are being used by the government to steer us into oblivion have been ousted as cheat and liars. (We already knew the gov are cheats & liars.)
No point in the greenies even trying to defend the undefendable.
Proof that the environmental agenda is a fraud.
Im not going as far as Zoolander and saying the Green Movement is a total fraud. But the current rush towards Global restructuring of the Industrial Regions is. Growing up the air was literally orange in South Chicago and Gary. Now, I can clearly see the Sears Tower 20 miles away DuPage County. We've made major leaps in quality.
But go to China or India. The air is even worse there than it was in the 1950s here. They arent going to comply. Whos going to force them? Do you know what a Racket is? Its where you collude to force someone out of business and drive that business to your choosing. This is a Global Racket to enforce restrictions and laws on one group while diverting their jobs to another.
Face it - the Green Movement was hijacked and has become a political movement instead.
Some more emails from CRU concerning the divergence of tree ring data pointing to a decline in temps versus their measuring sites which show an increase and how to handle it;
“IMPORTANT NOTE: The data after 1960 should not be used. The tree-ring density records tend to show a decline after 1960 relative to the summer temperature in many high-latitude locations. In this data set this ‘decline’ has been artificially removed in an ad-hoc way, and this means that data after 1960 no longer represent tree-ring density variations, but have been modified to look more like the observed temperatures.”
“NOTE: recent decline in tree-ring density has been ARTIFICIALLY REMOVED to facilitate calibration. THEREFORE, post-1960 values will be much closer to observed temperatures then (sic) they should be which will incorrectly imply the reconstruction is more skilful than it actually is. See Osborn et al. (2004).'
In addition to emails there are many folders of computational formulas and code for analysing data sets, many legit, many others fall into the precarious range between highly questionable (removing MXD data which demonstrate poor correlations with local temperature) to downright fraudulent (replacing MXD data entirely with measured data to reverse a disorderly trend-line).
and from 1998-2008, exxon funnelled $17-$23 million to anti-AGW groups.
just 3 groups have dumped $50 million to anti-AGW groups. most of them aren't even scientists, they're conservative, anti-government, anti-tax think tanks. hell, one even offered tens of thousands of dollars to scientists who could refute IPCC, and there were ZERO TAKERS...
Vaccinations and this SWINE FLU rubbish are not only robbing billions of taxpayer money, but the vaccinations kill us in the process.
you are right... eradication of diseases like polio was a stupid, stupid idea... (well, almost as dumb as folks like jenny mccarthy convincing idiot parents vaccines cause autism)
here's how dumb the swine flu is:
cost of a shot: $10
cost of treatment of a neighbr who's lung collapsed and has been in ICU for 3 weeks: $34,000
deaths from swine flu (US): 4000+
zoo... why are you so scared of science?
Remember when reading these emails; This is the primary research institution that feeds the UN's IPCC. The top cop so to speak.
Holz - maybe the increased hype surrounding man made global warming and the scare tactics like falling polar bears from airplanes has less to do with caring for the environment and more to do with the plumeting cost of CO2 on the American Exchange;
http://www.chicagoclimatex.com/index.jsf
Maybe when it gets to $0 the scheme will end. Blow carbon on one side of the planet and charge the other.
I love how these forums just devolve and devolve into hysterics.
Tens of thousands of scientists work on climate change. A few of them wrote emails that could be incriminating—and a few of those who wrote emails are considered "bigwigs" in the community of climate change scientists.
So?
There's so much data that supports the notion of global climate change that a few emails can't counter the overwhelming science.
Many, if not most, of the climate change deniers are funded by conservative/libertarian think tanks that are in turn heavily funded by the petroleum industry. Look up Willie Soon, Sallie Baliunas, Roy Spencer, etc. follow the trail of their research. It will take you to both the Marshall Institute and the Heartland Institute, which are funded in part by the American Petroleum Institute. You'll find that these researchers' papers have also been funded by the American Petroleum Institute.
Willie Soon
Marshall Institute
Heartland Institute
etc.
On the flip side, many if not most of the researchers who have discovered climate change trends have been funded by non-partisan agencies or universities, using a verifiable and peer-reviewed process. Sure, it has it's hiccups, but that's a far cry from being bought and owned by a single industry whose very existence depends on climate change being a hoax.
What's interesting to me is that so many of the climate change deniers seem to begin with their libertarian or conservative perspective, which says "less government, less regulation, etc." They then use this political perspective to come up with an argument in which climate science is seen as a hoax. This is the opposite of how legitimate science works.
No zoo, there just isnt much point debating something with people who dont have any genuine interest in actually understanding what theyre talking about. For instance, I dont imagine you'll have much interest in this article describing the "trick" to "hide" the "decline" in question. I dont imagine youre concerned about all that technical sciency stuff about 'calibration', or how 'global average temperatures' doesnt mean the same thing as 'regional data.' After all! How could that vast evil cabal of Illuminati scientists resist all that money they could spend on grants crawling around the wilderness drilling into trees! Nevermind the fucking trillions being made on the other side of the argument, representing 85% of the largest industry on the planet. Weve got to an evil global conspiracy to kill or inconvenience a statistically infinitesimal proportion of the population using vaccines! probably the single most important lifesaving medical advance in human history behind fucking soap.
Jack, while I appreciate your diligence, you must understand that calibration isnt by its nature nefarious. If youve got 6 types of data showing a tightly correlated movement in one direction, and one that is divergent, it could be that that piece of evidence is effected by isolated conditions which drive it from the mean, or that its simply erroneous. If thats the case, weighting that data as a strict 1/7 of the average may not give you the most accurate result. The statistical mechanics of how you deal with that are certainly debatable, but what you and many on the skeptics side are doing is taking minuscule differences in interpretation and using them to question an extraordinarily well defined trend. There are no calibration tricks that change the global trend in a way that helps you. They simply adjust the trend between dangerously steep and catastrophically steep.
Thank you, oe. That was nicely put, and should be directed at Jack Klompus as well.
As my wife--a very moderate person politically--said last night, "even if it turns out the globe isn't warming, isn't curbing our use of fossil fuels and trying to live in a more carbon neutral way a good thing regardless?"
Exactly.
Isn't it ultimately better to use a completely inert energy source (solar, or wind) than to use finite fossil fuels? What I don't understand from the climate change denier crowd is why they don't see this logic. Whether climate change is happening or not, better to use a completely inert energy source, isn't it?
Oh, wait. Could it have to do with James Inhofe and Joe Barton being in the back pocket of Big Petroleum? Could it be that they're whores and shills for a single industry?
Yes, that's it exactly. The biggest anti-climate change loudmouths in this country are handpuppets of the oil industry.
OE - I agree a statisticle sample set needs to have deviation smoothing. However the data packages downloaded are being reported as going well beyond smoothing.
There is also the cherry picking of tree samples, where the IPCC rports used trees with ring samples to better fit the hypothis than other tree ring researchers' showed. In fact theres emails dealing with tree ring scientists who disagreed with what CRU was saying and they to were silenced.
I understand science is an in progress endeavour, and I would argue that "big oil" or "big energy", the people who keep your lights on for a profit, are pretty smart to, and if they could find a way to extract more energy than the Hydro-Carbon bond supplies they would be all over it. Who else has the pockets deep enough to fund the research silly? The government? You guys talk like being productive, big and wealthy is a bad thing. Would rather have big, unproductive wealthy policy makers in control?
And the people at Wired and New Scientist have looked at this and been extraordinarily critical of this as well. I actually completely agree that all the data needs to be put on the table, and its a completely legitimate discussion to be had about just how crazy do we need to go here. What bothers me are all the people out there looking at this and saying "leaked emails prove global warming is a hoax!" when they do absolutely nothing of the kind. Whats being discussed is not 'is this trend real', but 'how catastrophic is it'. Are we dealing with WW2-scale global disaster, or Chicxulub? No matter what, everyone reputable on this subject well agrees that the completely wimpy global effort thus far doesnt come close to adequately addressing either bound.
zoolander, all baiting and crazytalk aside: if you haven't gotten vaccines, then stay inside, all the time, and for sure don't go near any newborn infants who don't have immunity yet. I honestly don't care if you get sick and die via your own freedom of choice - BTW I thought you said we weren't free, so your choice to not get vaccinated seems to refute that, but whatevs - but if you get someone else sick then you truly are impinging on their rights. (And being an anti-science asshole on top of it, but again - whatevs.)
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