LEED is just guidelines as outlined by an organization. There is no moral requirement to getting certified as the morality is "built-in".
Many people who share those ideas support it and get certified but just as many who are interested in the certification as a commodity or professional responsibility and not as a personal dogma are also getting certified.
I think its a mistake to confuse a system with a belief. USGBC is not a personal belief, but a set of guidelines built on a moving our destructuve industry into a new type of professional responsibility.
The thought was following on your comment, but not directed at you.
Directed at the basic premise of Anti's post. I understand his feelings, but think mixing personal beliefs with professional responsibility is crossing an ethical divide. Confusing two issues if you will.
I think the best approach is to be honest in your endeavors. Lots of "green" or "sustainable" products, designs, ect focus on an area neglecting other ones that may be more challenging, possibly even override whatever good may have been done. First people need to honestly want to do these things, thats the hard part. Once people are honestly trying it all falls into place, although rarely immediately.
One of the largest problems is we don't know what the best ways to do everything are. The deeper you dig the more you find what seemed good had unforeseen drawbacks somewhere in the process.
"3. Forbidden fruits from afar. Do you dare to eat a kiwi? Sure, because more “food miles” do not equal more greenhouse emissions. Food from other countries is often produced and shipped much more efficiently than domestic food, particularly if the local producers are hauling their wares around in small trucks. One study showed that apples shipped from New Zealand to Britain had a smaller carbon footprint than apples grown and sold in Britain."
Does this mean all fruit from overseas is better. No. Each product needs to be examined from so many angles, and this is what makes it very difficult to fully determine your actual overall effect.
personally, i dont make it my crusade to save the earth
i think people that do are great
its not something that is the highest priority in my life
that being said, i do what i can whenever i can
but i am not going to berate someone if i see them using a plastic bag at the grocery store vs having their own reusable bags
i think if someone is taking it to that extreme, they are completely counter-productive to their goal
it doesnt make me less of a person than you because i eat hamburgers occasionally
once i hear someone say something to that regard makes me lose all respect for what they are saying, and anything said after that will be taken with a grain of salt
professional responsibility as an architect is, in my opinion, to be aware of sustainable design ideas, and to know where and when you are able to implement them into the project.
you do not need to be LEED certified for this
you dont need to reject any projects that come along that arent completely sustainable
people tend to give off the idea that if you dont fight a client to death to be sustainable, that you are not doing your job
that is untrue
if you choose to walk away from a client because they will not fund a sustainable project, that is your choice
do not yell at me if i do not do the same every time
coming from a residential who did only green build the clients who come in are already aware and have made the choice ahead of time.
now working for a commercial facilities firm it is more of a government mandate not a client preference.
knowing how to play all sides of every issue is important to me and it all comes from experience.
As time moves on these issues are transcending and all interrelated. If we don't make the choice to do it our selfs somebody else will try to force it. Either you stand your ground or are always moving to new areas.
Oh gosh, I'm sorry I've missed all the fun until now. Here's my 2 cents.....
I think one of the reasons the environmental movement has struggled to gain mainstream acceptance until a few years ago is because of attitudes like this. Antisthenes exhibits the same sort of self-righteousness that Greenpeace did for a while, and it's certainly akin to the attitudes that we see in right-winger evangelicals. Trying to impose your world view on someone, whether it be for social issues or environmental issues, is never going to work. Teaching people about the issues, debating them, and coming to a communal understanding is really the only way that you can get people to come around to a certain, different, way of thinking.
Well, that and paying them. Don't forget we are still living in George W. Bush's 'Merica. :o)
In all seriousness though, ReflexiveSpace makes a great point about the transport of food. Our society is in no way sustainable at this point in time so nothing you do or eat or drive is going to make you 100% green, unless you live on a commune, don't drive, and grow your own food. If there is anyone here who does that, then by all means, lecture away. Until then let's keep our moral superiority at a low, comedic level, shall we?
proactive force is not always justified, and definitely not in this context
you are writing anonymously on a webpage
not very proactive at all
you are not connecting dots, you are sitting on a high horse saying you are better than everyone else
when you know none of us personally, that is incredibly insulting and makes you look ridiculous
just connecting the issues of diet and structure both key to human health.
No, actually you weren't "just connecting" anything. You've insulted people and told them in no uncertain terms that their actions/behaviours are wrong ("not fine"). That isn't connecting any sort of issues, that is judging.
Things are getting better, though. With high fuel costs, groceries are looking to local farmers, which means healthier food, less preservatives, etc.
Everything comes down to money. If it is economically viable, it'll get done.
Green is popular because #1 it sells things and #2 because the cost/benefit has pushed it into being economically advantageous (whether in pure cost savings or gov't credits).
I'd love to think people do things for all the right reasons, but that is very rarely ever going to make a big impact all by itself. Push in the right directions, like gov't breaks on alt energy and less tax breaks for big oil and we'll be going in the right direction.
Same goes for big agriculture. I recall a few years ago a quiet movement to make "organic" food only have to be something like 75% "true" organic. Don't recall the specifics, but you can guess who was pushing that through.
Things will change as long as there is a clear money trail. This can be a win/win.
I am still waiting for the day where meat is just too expensive and impractical to produce ;-).
Then, just maybe, we'll get some good chef's making great veggie dishes!!
Its not exactly accurate to look at the unsustainability of the current feed lot meat system and assume a superiority complex because you have never eaten meat.
Pastured meats from smaller farms can be extremely sustainable and improve the health of the land that otherwise might be unsuitable for growing vegan food.
Some people do not thrive on even the most well thought out vegetarian diet. This is from someone who was raised vegetarian until the age of 18.
Its rediculous to assume a one size fits all approach to sustainable living. I buy my produce exclusively from the farmers markets, tote my reusable bags with me to the grocery store, and regularly make bread, kefir, and cultured vegetables at home. But I drive because biking on the highway with my 8 year old isn't a safety risk I am willing to take.
I found what works for me. When I am ready I plan to be leed certified and won't have a minute's hesitation about whether I deserve to think about building sustainably without being perfect in every single aspect of my life other than building.
Isn't it enough to be glad that people are making a move toward building in a way that may lessen the negative impacts of our actions on future generations? The all or nothing attitude is what discouraged so many people from making an effort for years. Isn't it more constructive to say, "yes, that is a good start. But have you thought about this ___?"
In the mean time I am going to enjoy my sustainable raised food and continue learning without assuming anyone else has to do it exactly the way I have done.
LEED is basically industry wiggling into standards so that it can control and profit from what should be basic common knowledge applied...don't believe the hype.
And Anti...remember when you are pointing your finger there is four pointing back. Without humans becoming agrarian societies we would not be where we are today...you know...this world with all the contemporary architecture that cool programs like Rhino let you play with.
Go get some Argentine beef...free range no antibiotics...the most wonderful meals I have ever digested...YUM.
6'4" - 200 lbs - run, bike, lift weights, exercise regularly and have plenty of energy to spare.
chupacabra
saying LEED isnt sustainable is really ridiculous
yes, its not the end all to sustainability, and it doent necessarily mean a building is perfect
no one is claiming that it does these these things
but there are thousands of clients out there who now incorporate sustainable aspects into their buildings when otherwise they wouldnt have bothered at all
those buildings would be much worse off if they didnt want to get the LEED standard
Is every project you work on completely sustainable?
LEED is more sustainable than doing nothing at all, which is what most of these builders would do without it
to say its not a step in the right direction is about as snotty as Anti bashing anyone who eats meat
and it makes about as much sense too
marmkid...lots of assumptions in your argument...there are plenty of sustainable building that want nothing to do with LEED because they can't afford it...I suppose it is ok in regards to government contracts...but, it will take time to see...if these buildings last...then it is great...if they fall apart and are leveled in 25 years...then it is a failure...there needs to be a much more defined understanding of what sustainable even is...look at the Carter administration...solar panels on the capital...only to be scrapped by reagan...end result...nada.
There has been sustainable architecture since the dawn of time...much more so than most of what passes as sustainable today. LEED alone does not make something 'sustainable'...it is that myth that keeps people going through the motions and thinking they are somehow making some huge difference.
Michael Reynolds has been doing much sustainable research than any LEED project and he is largely ignored by the whole 'green' movement.
I never said that...but keep running with your assumptions.
“doing less bad is not doing good”
-William McDonough
AMEN!!!!
We need to sell, as architects and designers, sustainable concepts as ways to make money and more value for developers projects. Many will not pay for LEED but are willing to add value to their projects. This is something we needed to do before LEED and will need to do after LEED.
all over the country, there are a ton of projects being built
most of them are not high profile projects, but ones that will be built regardless
shopping centers, small offices, warehouses, etc
things needed in todays world, and will be built one way or another
many times they will be built by a developer who is trying to make a profit and would like to do it as cost effective as possible
and here is a news flash, in todays market, making a sustainable building is not the most cost effective way
the codes dont require it, and it can be done cheaper if one wanted to
but now, because of LEED, many of these types of projects are beginning to think of these aspects of building, and yes, a lot of times it is just for the PR of saying you have a LEED building
and so what if that is the case?
the alternative is a cheap building that is much worse for the environment
Right now? None...in a break...about as sustainable as one could get :)
I have worked one plenty of large scale projects while at Predocks and we always considered sustainable concepts without any consideration of LEED...the ideas were much more intrinsic to the whole project as opposed to putting some louvers on a building that has horrible solar alignment.
I also have done a few Adobe workshops as well as the ghost lab and think regional thinking in regards to sustainable is another element that LEED largely misses out on...
And while at modulus design we sold clients on doing solar scrims and exterior shading that could also be used as marketing signage...i.e. it served a purpose for the client outside of just 'appearing' to be green.
rationalist is is not fine by me that many suffer at the expense of a greedy few i hope that is not ok by you, how could you feel insulted unless you have guilt?
i never once claimed that LEED will save the world
read my posts and you might get that
LEED misses out on a lot of aspects it will need before its a good system
I am working on a very large food processing factory right now, that because of the PR that LEED certification will bring them with their distribution companies, they have pumped another 2 million into the design and construction of their building.
this would never have been a consideration or possibility before, and they would never have had the extra budget available to do this
but their building would have gone up no matter what, and would have been much worse off
so saying LEED does no good at all is really quite ignorant of the real world
it sounds like you got to work on some nice sustainable projects
hopefully there will be many more coming from our clients
archroma that is too bad i do believe you are who you are because of those roots and you can always go back. Deep down you know it was good for you and you are not in any way at a disadvantage because of it.
chupacabra no all meats cause inflation of the gut as proven weather toxin free or not, in humans. They also are not very digestible take a picture of your crap for me after eating if you will so we can have the evidence of your partial digestion of this overdose of the simple proteins.
so no thank you. i don't need that. never had. and my life is an experiment to prove incorrect assumptions held for the last 1000s of years wrong. If people dislike me for it that is their own feelings not mine, own up to them.
marmkid at this point your attacks on me fall flat from the beginning to the end. I did care at first but now i become apathetic to your words, because you cause more harm them help as is apparent this is your intention i believe.
Marm, I never said LEED does no good...you should read my posts as well...
I said it was a joke...and it is in its current state I think it is...it could be sooo much more and many are doing much more without it...I am glad one of your clients chose to put in more to add to the project...but spending more money alone does not make something more sustainable...that is part of the myth.
For instance Michael Reynolds has been doing wonderful off the grid research and development in the Taos west mesa for over 40 years without any LEED or government support and it has led to many innovative thinking that he gets nearly zero credit for...we need more Mike Reynolds and less certificate procedures...that is my current stance anyway.
i am not sure what i said to you Anti, i have been talking with chupacabra
i mean no attack on you
you are free to not eat meat at all, that is completely fine and a healthy way to live
there is no reason to attack people who do eat meat though
I see a trend here kids who went threw traditional school all they seem to be taught is how to be critical and run around so to speak like a chicken with the head cut off.
sad
some unschooling is in order.
craft my ass. :D
...KURT... you seem to have nothing of importance to say.
as an architect, that is our job to help our clients with
assuming we spent money on my project on things that are useless would be completely wrong
Mike Reynolds is doing great work, i agree
but while he is doing that end of things, millions of buildings are going up regardless
i feel that LEED is helping on that end of things
hopefully soon, the 2 ends will meet
Anti - you wouldn't have Rhino without Agrarian societies that used animals to help develop this thing called civilization...from farming to fertilizer to food to shelter to clothing etc...animals have had a lot to do with humans getting to the pedestal we now sit on. Ignoring that is discounting your own existence.
That said, I don't eat meat at every meal...nor do I chastise those that do...there are much larger issues at hand...like say the continued proliferation of military grade weapons world wide.
Marm - I think we probably agree on 80 - 90% and diverge strongly somewhere in between...which is good...we can push all sides to adopt stronger concepts of integration of sustainable concepts into out everyday lives...that will make a difference.
if you disagree and don't want to that is fine too. Because if you know my background as a Muay Thai bout fighter and training in Brazilian Ju-Jitsu , unless you had some skills yourself i would back and say no too.
i have no problem with you Anti, except for i disagree with you thinking you should tell people they are not allowed to eat meat
thats all really
chupa
i agree
all sides of pretty much every industry these days needs to be pushed towards sustainability
just this thread alone shows that its not just the construction industry, but the agricultural industry as well that needs to be aware of its impact on the earth
the good thing is that a lot more people these days are aware that there is a problem
thats a good first step
doomed: green professional w/o green diet?
*burp* prius indigestion
plug in prius' come pre-burped.
LEED is just guidelines as outlined by an organization. There is no moral requirement to getting certified as the morality is "built-in".
Many people who share those ideas support it and get certified but just as many who are interested in the certification as a commodity or professional responsibility and not as a personal dogma are also getting certified.
I think its a mistake to confuse a system with a belief. USGBC is not a personal belief, but a set of guidelines built on a moving our destructuve industry into a new type of professional responsibility.
Different rules and ethics involved I think.
i am not sure, was that directed at my comment brer?
The thought was following on your comment, but not directed at you.
Directed at the basic premise of Anti's post. I understand his feelings, but think mixing personal beliefs with professional responsibility is crossing an ethical divide. Confusing two issues if you will.
Thats just my take on it of course.
I think the best approach is to be honest in your endeavors. Lots of "green" or "sustainable" products, designs, ect focus on an area neglecting other ones that may be more challenging, possibly even override whatever good may have been done. First people need to honestly want to do these things, thats the hard part. Once people are honestly trying it all falls into place, although rarely immediately.
One of the largest problems is we don't know what the best ways to do everything are. The deeper you dig the more you find what seemed good had unforeseen drawbacks somewhere in the process.
I reference a NYT article today.
"3. Forbidden fruits from afar. Do you dare to eat a kiwi? Sure, because more “food miles” do not equal more greenhouse emissions. Food from other countries is often produced and shipped much more efficiently than domestic food, particularly if the local producers are hauling their wares around in small trucks. One study showed that apples shipped from New Zealand to Britain had a smaller carbon footprint than apples grown and sold in Britain."
Does this mean all fruit from overseas is better. No. Each product needs to be examined from so many angles, and this is what makes it very difficult to fully determine your actual overall effect.
i agree Brer
personally, i dont make it my crusade to save the earth
i think people that do are great
its not something that is the highest priority in my life
that being said, i do what i can whenever i can
but i am not going to berate someone if i see them using a plastic bag at the grocery store vs having their own reusable bags
i think if someone is taking it to that extreme, they are completely counter-productive to their goal
it doesnt make me less of a person than you because i eat hamburgers occasionally
once i hear someone say something to that regard makes me lose all respect for what they are saying, and anything said after that will be taken with a grain of salt
professional responsibility as an architect is, in my opinion, to be aware of sustainable design ideas, and to know where and when you are able to implement them into the project.
you do not need to be LEED certified for this
you dont need to reject any projects that come along that arent completely sustainable
people tend to give off the idea that if you dont fight a client to death to be sustainable, that you are not doing your job
that is untrue
if you choose to walk away from a client because they will not fund a sustainable project, that is your choice
do not yell at me if i do not do the same every time
coming from a residential who did only green build the clients who come in are already aware and have made the choice ahead of time.
now working for a commercial facilities firm it is more of a government mandate not a client preference.
knowing how to play all sides of every issue is important to me and it all comes from experience.
As time moves on these issues are transcending and all interrelated. If we don't make the choice to do it our selfs somebody else will try to force it. Either you stand your ground or are always moving to new areas.
Oh gosh, I'm sorry I've missed all the fun until now. Here's my 2 cents.....
I think one of the reasons the environmental movement has struggled to gain mainstream acceptance until a few years ago is because of attitudes like this. Antisthenes exhibits the same sort of self-righteousness that Greenpeace did for a while, and it's certainly akin to the attitudes that we see in right-winger evangelicals. Trying to impose your world view on someone, whether it be for social issues or environmental issues, is never going to work. Teaching people about the issues, debating them, and coming to a communal understanding is really the only way that you can get people to come around to a certain, different, way of thinking.
Well, that and paying them. Don't forget we are still living in George W. Bush's 'Merica. :o)
In all seriousness though, ReflexiveSpace makes a great point about the transport of food. Our society is in no way sustainable at this point in time so nothing you do or eat or drive is going to make you 100% green, unless you live on a commune, don't drive, and grow your own food. If there is anyone here who does that, then by all means, lecture away. Until then let's keep our moral superiority at a low, comedic level, shall we?
wrong, i didn't force anything and it if was force it was protective the only force justified.
just connecting the issues of diet and structure both key to human health.
it will never be comedy, when we laugh to elevate our uncomfortability that releases dopamine in our blood. good way to become apathetic
the issue is as serious as it was since before i was born.
proactive force is not always justified, and definitely not in this context
you are writing anonymously on a webpage
not very proactive at all
you are not connecting dots, you are sitting on a high horse saying you are better than everyone else
when you know none of us personally, that is incredibly insulting and makes you look ridiculous
No, actually you weren't "just connecting" anything. You've insulted people and told them in no uncertain terms that their actions/behaviours are wrong ("not fine"). That isn't connecting any sort of issues, that is judging.
Things are getting better, though. With high fuel costs, groceries are looking to local farmers, which means healthier food, less preservatives, etc.
Everything comes down to money. If it is economically viable, it'll get done.
Green is popular because #1 it sells things and #2 because the cost/benefit has pushed it into being economically advantageous (whether in pure cost savings or gov't credits).
I'd love to think people do things for all the right reasons, but that is very rarely ever going to make a big impact all by itself. Push in the right directions, like gov't breaks on alt energy and less tax breaks for big oil and we'll be going in the right direction.
Same goes for big agriculture. I recall a few years ago a quiet movement to make "organic" food only have to be something like 75% "true" organic. Don't recall the specifics, but you can guess who was pushing that through.
Things will change as long as there is a clear money trail. This can be a win/win.
I am still waiting for the day where meat is just too expensive and impractical to produce ;-).
Then, just maybe, we'll get some good chef's making great veggie dishes!!
Its not exactly accurate to look at the unsustainability of the current feed lot meat system and assume a superiority complex because you have never eaten meat.
Pastured meats from smaller farms can be extremely sustainable and improve the health of the land that otherwise might be unsuitable for growing vegan food.
Some people do not thrive on even the most well thought out vegetarian diet. This is from someone who was raised vegetarian until the age of 18.
Its rediculous to assume a one size fits all approach to sustainable living. I buy my produce exclusively from the farmers markets, tote my reusable bags with me to the grocery store, and regularly make bread, kefir, and cultured vegetables at home. But I drive because biking on the highway with my 8 year old isn't a safety risk I am willing to take.
I found what works for me. When I am ready I plan to be leed certified and won't have a minute's hesitation about whether I deserve to think about building sustainably without being perfect in every single aspect of my life other than building.
Isn't it enough to be glad that people are making a move toward building in a way that may lessen the negative impacts of our actions on future generations? The all or nothing attitude is what discouraged so many people from making an effort for years. Isn't it more constructive to say, "yes, that is a good start. But have you thought about this ___?"
In the mean time I am going to enjoy my sustainable raised food and continue learning without assuming anyone else has to do it exactly the way I have done.
eating meat is not the problem, and people that are on their high horse because they dont eat meat are a little absurd in their thinking
if the world became vegetarian overnight, all our problems would not be solved
trace
there are plenty of non-meat options and meal choices out there
there is no reason at all why meat would need to be eliminated completely
How LEED is sustainable is beyond me.
LEED is basically industry wiggling into standards so that it can control and profit from what should be basic common knowledge applied...don't believe the hype.
And Anti...remember when you are pointing your finger there is four pointing back. Without humans becoming agrarian societies we would not be where we are today...you know...this world with all the contemporary architecture that cool programs like Rhino let you play with.
Go get some Argentine beef...free range no antibiotics...the most wonderful meals I have ever digested...YUM.
6'4" - 200 lbs - run, bike, lift weights, exercise regularly and have plenty of energy to spare.
Know what sounds good right now? ...a T.Boone steak
chupacabra
saying LEED isnt sustainable is really ridiculous
yes, its not the end all to sustainability, and it doent necessarily mean a building is perfect
no one is claiming that it does these these things
but there are thousands of clients out there who now incorporate sustainable aspects into their buildings when otherwise they wouldnt have bothered at all
those buildings would be much worse off if they didnt want to get the LEED standard
Is every project you work on completely sustainable?
LEED is more sustainable than doing nothing at all, which is what most of these builders would do without it
to say its not a step in the right direction is about as snotty as Anti bashing anyone who eats meat
and it makes about as much sense too
An adobe structure is more sustainable than any LEED building...imo LEED is a joke.
“doing less bad is not doing good”
-William McDonough
so we might as well do nothing at all
i understand now
marmkid...lots of assumptions in your argument...there are plenty of sustainable building that want nothing to do with LEED because they can't afford it...I suppose it is ok in regards to government contracts...but, it will take time to see...if these buildings last...then it is great...if they fall apart and are leveled in 25 years...then it is a failure...there needs to be a much more defined understanding of what sustainable even is...look at the Carter administration...solar panels on the capital...only to be scrapped by reagan...end result...nada.
There has been sustainable architecture since the dawn of time...much more so than most of what passes as sustainable today. LEED alone does not make something 'sustainable'...it is that myth that keeps people going through the motions and thinking they are somehow making some huge difference.
Michael Reynolds has been doing much sustainable research than any LEED project and he is largely ignored by the whole 'green' movement.
what projects do you work on?
I never said that...but keep running with your assumptions.
“doing less bad is not doing good”
-William McDonough
AMEN!!!!
We need to sell, as architects and designers, sustainable concepts as ways to make money and more value for developers projects. Many will not pay for LEED but are willing to add value to their projects. This is something we needed to do before LEED and will need to do after LEED.
here is what i dont understand
all over the country, there are a ton of projects being built
most of them are not high profile projects, but ones that will be built regardless
shopping centers, small offices, warehouses, etc
things needed in todays world, and will be built one way or another
many times they will be built by a developer who is trying to make a profit and would like to do it as cost effective as possible
and here is a news flash, in todays market, making a sustainable building is not the most cost effective way
the codes dont require it, and it can be done cheaper if one wanted to
but now, because of LEED, many of these types of projects are beginning to think of these aspects of building, and yes, a lot of times it is just for the PR of saying you have a LEED building
and so what if that is the case?
the alternative is a cheap building that is much worse for the environment
is there any chance of getting actual projects you work on as examples for how you are making a difference?
or is it all theory right now?
i'm being serious and would like to actually have a conversation about this
Right now? None...in a break...about as sustainable as one could get :)
I have worked one plenty of large scale projects while at Predocks and we always considered sustainable concepts without any consideration of LEED...the ideas were much more intrinsic to the whole project as opposed to putting some louvers on a building that has horrible solar alignment.
I also have done a few Adobe workshops as well as the ghost lab and think regional thinking in regards to sustainable is another element that LEED largely misses out on...
And your projects...where have you saved the world with LEED?
And while at modulus design we sold clients on doing solar scrims and exterior shading that could also be used as marketing signage...i.e. it served a purpose for the client outside of just 'appearing' to be green.
marmkid i said no such thing you are using your imagination or making things up
what is your problem you cam in here with a attitude and retain one acting like somebody is threatening you, nobody is.
are you willing to have or i need of any help?
rationalist is is not fine by me that many suffer at the expense of a greedy few i hope that is not ok by you, how could you feel insulted unless you have guilt?
i never once claimed that LEED will save the world
read my posts and you might get that
LEED misses out on a lot of aspects it will need before its a good system
I am working on a very large food processing factory right now, that because of the PR that LEED certification will bring them with their distribution companies, they have pumped another 2 million into the design and construction of their building.
this would never have been a consideration or possibility before, and they would never have had the extra budget available to do this
but their building would have gone up no matter what, and would have been much worse off
so saying LEED does no good at all is really quite ignorant of the real world
it sounds like you got to work on some nice sustainable projects
hopefully there will be many more coming from our clients
just as trace says win/win that is the only solution.
i am not sure what you are referring to Anti
archroma that is too bad i do believe you are who you are because of those roots and you can always go back. Deep down you know it was good for you and you are not in any way at a disadvantage because of it.
chupacabra no all meats cause inflation of the gut as proven weather toxin free or not, in humans. They also are not very digestible take a picture of your crap for me after eating if you will so we can have the evidence of your partial digestion of this overdose of the simple proteins.
so no thank you. i don't need that. never had. and my life is an experiment to prove incorrect assumptions held for the last 1000s of years wrong. If people dislike me for it that is their own feelings not mine, own up to them.
marmkid at this point your attacks on me fall flat from the beginning to the end. I did care at first but now i become apathetic to your words, because you cause more harm them help as is apparent this is your intention i believe.
Marm, I never said LEED does no good...you should read my posts as well...
I said it was a joke...and it is in its current state I think it is...it could be sooo much more and many are doing much more without it...I am glad one of your clients chose to put in more to add to the project...but spending more money alone does not make something more sustainable...that is part of the myth.
For instance Michael Reynolds has been doing wonderful off the grid research and development in the Taos west mesa for over 40 years without any LEED or government support and it has led to many innovative thinking that he gets nearly zero credit for...we need more Mike Reynolds and less certificate procedures...that is my current stance anyway.
i am not sure what i said to you Anti, i have been talking with chupacabra
i mean no attack on you
you are free to not eat meat at all, that is completely fine and a healthy way to live
there is no reason to attack people who do eat meat though
I see a trend here kids who went threw traditional school all they seem to be taught is how to be critical and run around so to speak like a chicken with the head cut off.
sad
some unschooling is in order.
craft my ass. :D
...KURT... you seem to have nothing of importance to say.
spending money on the right things helps
as an architect, that is our job to help our clients with
assuming we spent money on my project on things that are useless would be completely wrong
Mike Reynolds is doing great work, i agree
but while he is doing that end of things, millions of buildings are going up regardless
i feel that LEED is helping on that end of things
hopefully soon, the 2 ends will meet
but i feel you need both sides working on it
well let's agree to a fight then marmkid i am up for it and think by fighting you i could prove yet another lesson to you.
Anti - you wouldn't have Rhino without Agrarian societies that used animals to help develop this thing called civilization...from farming to fertilizer to food to shelter to clothing etc...animals have had a lot to do with humans getting to the pedestal we now sit on. Ignoring that is discounting your own existence.
That said, I don't eat meat at every meal...nor do I chastise those that do...there are much larger issues at hand...like say the continued proliferation of military grade weapons world wide.
are we seriously going to fight about whether or not people should be allowed to decide if they want to eat meat?
A fight? How anti meat is that?
I think we are all smart enough to disagree without jumping to, "oh well, you wanna fight?"
But if you do fight...I say the winner must eat the loser.
Marm - I think we probably agree on 80 - 90% and diverge strongly somewhere in between...which is good...we can push all sides to adopt stronger concepts of integration of sustainable concepts into out everyday lives...that will make a difference.
don't you just love how anything goes here, thread hijacking, insults, personal attacks ;)
i guess it can only get to you if you let it. some peeps feel baited and insulted just by the notion of raw foods?
it is not about deciding what to eat it is about attitudes towards me and i think we need to settle it.
if you disagree and don't want to that is fine too. Because if you know my background as a Muay Thai bout fighter and training in Brazilian Ju-Jitsu , unless you had some skills yourself i would back and say no too.
I have a 357 magnum...you wanna jujitsu against that...I got a shotgun too if you would rather. :)
Welcome to reality Anti.
i have no problem with you Anti, except for i disagree with you thinking you should tell people they are not allowed to eat meat
thats all really
chupa
i agree
all sides of pretty much every industry these days needs to be pushed towards sustainability
just this thread alone shows that its not just the construction industry, but the agricultural industry as well that needs to be aware of its impact on the earth
the good thing is that a lot more people these days are aware that there is a problem
thats a good first step
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