but i'm quite used to everyone calling me racist, xenophobic, isolationist, etc. for my views
i know that my heart is for fairness; for legal immigrants and lower to middle class blue collar u.s. citizens. something like 1 billion people want to come to the u.s. - i don't think we should give special privileges to countries that share our border.
at the end of the day, does it matter? it was Americans voting for what they think is best for the country.
we agree 100% on this .. all the breaking down of the vote into 'how do african-american women vote? are they going to chose the african-american or the woman?' and 'hey look, white men in the south are voting for barack!'
I am worried about illegal immigration too, our tactics for solving it are different though. I think that our immigration policies are so 1920's and we need 2020 vision that reflect global realities. Sadly I have to say this is the only issue that W and I were always in agreement on and I found that in that issue he actually showed a little leadership.
many MANY legal residents and citizens speak spanish though, so when you make sly comments it does not sound good.
The lopsided nature of Senator Barack Obama’s parade of victories on Tuesday gives him an opening to make the case that Democratic voters have broken in his favor and that the party should coalesce around his candidacy.
can anyone explain to me why illegal immigration is bad? the US is one of the only, if not the only, industrialized nations where births outnumber deaths. the majority of these babies are being born to immigrants, illegal or not. if you think social security is in crisis here it's nothing compared to the catastrophe countries like japan face as their aging populations are no longer able to work.
Free, watch some debates as opposed to talking rhetoric...he has actually said a lot of very specific information...specifically in the last debate...go to cnn and watch it if you are so inclined...or just continue to blindly bash someone who is doing well...seems to be the knee jerk reaction from the right...accuse falsely and repeat.
Edwards Weighs Clinton Endorsement
Former Candidate Torn Between Clinton and Obama in Democratic Race
from the comments:
If Edwards backs Clinton there will be a price to pay, and progressive activists such as myself will waste no time exacting it from him. An Edwards endorsement for the corporate, establishment Democrat (Clinton) against the insurgent (Obama) would be an obvious sell-out for which Edwards will be deservedly raked over the coals by bloggers from coast to coast; and the obvious fact that such an endorsement could only be based on crude self-interest would render it meaningless among those who once held Edwards in respect. Indeed the mere fact that he is even considering a Clinton endorsement is a sell out as far as I'm concerned. If Edwards were truly interested in change, he would have endorsed Obama the day he dropped out of the race.
Posted by:
mceades 9:42 AM
Free, watch some debates as opposed to talking rhetoric...he has actually said a lot of very specific information...specifically in the last debate...go to cnn and watch it if you are so inclined...or just continue to blindly bash someone who is doing well...seems to be the knee jerk reaction from the right...accuse falsely and repeat.
don't worry, i watch the debates. i'm informed on obama's positions and i disagree with most of them.
obama has been very effective in cornering the 'hope/change' message. i hope for change and a better tomorrow, i just don't think taxing the rich to redistribute money to the poor is the right way.
and i don't think giving amnesty to illegal aliens will help either. answer me this: if we make all the illegal aliens legal (to raise wages as obama and clinton said) then suddenly we lose the cheap labor. so then all the goods and services we supposedly need become more expensive. won't this create a new demand for 'new' illegal alien labor? and isn't this a huge draw for illegal aliens to get here by any means, eventually you'll get citizenship? the last time this happened was when reagen gave amnesty to about 1 million illegal aliens in 1986. the promise back then (ted kennedy said) was to secure the border and never give amnesty again.
but hey, i'm just 'blindly bashing' barack because he's doing well. i really don't know anything. if i really wanted hope and change i would support him.
In America it is certainly NOT one man-one vote: the electoral college system (and the unequal representation of large-state small-state representation, by two senators in every case), means that some persons' votes weigh more than others. There is a movement to alter or abolish the electoral college, I believe.
I love picking apart faulty logic on this forum...it's so much fun.
Free, I won't enter the debate on immigration right now, don't have that much free time, but I want to call you on one point:
answer me this: if we make all the illegal aliens legal (to raise wages as obama and clinton said) then suddenly we lose the cheap labor. so then all the goods and services we supposedly need become more expensive. won't this create a new demand for 'new' illegal alien labor?
Ok, think about that a little bit. The day these "aliens" get their green card, they will en masse leave their jobs doing landscaping work, picking fruits and vegetables, working in sweat shops and kitchens, because, of course, their amazing resumes will cause companies and corporations to chase them down and hire them on the spot and give them management level positions and make them CEO's...ROFL!
I asked above if anyone could explain to me why illegal immigration is bad and no one has attempted to answer. I ask this in all seriousness. I truly don't understand where the people who are against illegal immigration are coming from...
i never said illegal aliens would become ceo's .. just that the cost of this cheap labor (that supposedly keeps the u.s. economy afloat) would suddenly double (to get to minimum wage or slightly above)
then the fat slave-driving employers of todays illegal aliens will look for 'new' illegal aliens to pay under-the-counter slave wages.
I asked above if anyone could explain to me why illegal immigration is bad and no one has attempted to answer. I ask this in all seriousness. I truly don't understand where the people who are against illegal immigration are coming from...
1. fairness to all people who want to come to the u.s. - there is a process, yes it takes a long time and is complicated, but sharing a border does not mean we should give special privileges to those contries (i'm talkin' to you, canada!)
2. fairness to legal u.s. immigrants and lower to middle class blue-collar u.s. workers - both barack and hillary admitted in the last debate that illegal immigration labor depresses wages for lower to middle class workers.
barack said just before that that we shouldn't 'scapegoat immigrants for the problems of inner-city black youths' but he changed the question regarding illegal immigrants and pressure on african-american workers to a very specific group of african-americans (to make the question seem silly and racist). but shortly after that he said (illegal) immigrants do keep wages down. i watch the debates! i listen to barack's positions!
3. pressure on public schools, emergency rooms, and other social services - what illegal immigrant families do pay in taxes (sales tax, sometimes payroll tax) is much less than the tax money they take through kids in public schools and use of emergency rooms and other tax-supported infrastructure.
please come out to los angeles and look at the l.a. unified school district - it's a disaster. sorry but if the kids can't speak english and the parents can't help kids with school work then teachers spend all their time teaching english. i have nothing against speaking other languages but it hurts the kids in public schools who are trying to learn something.
Then you must be advocating for the reverse - the illegal aliens here now stay illegal and in their terrible jobs so that the slave-driving employees won't fire them and cause more immigrants to stream across the border to replace them - otherwise why make that point? Is that some kind of acceptable solution to you?
Or, if you advocate just sending the present illegals back, and stopping future illegals, then the slave driving employers (correct that above too) will have to hire legal employess, and that will have the same effect, raise wages and thus prices, so what's the difference? Why not just make the present illegals legal?
Any time you want to get clobbered over the head by big business for enforcing the labor laws of this country that already exist, you go ahead. The only way to stop illegal immigration (at this scale - you'll never stop it all - see: Leaving East Germany) is to vigorously prosecute anyone who hires illegal immigrants. Fences won't do it, locking up people a certain shade of brown won't do it. (At least you noticed all the secretly canadians out there Freeper) Not letting undocumented people into schools and emergency rooms won't do it. They come because we have jobs where they earn significantly more than what they can back home (and significantly less than what people make here).
Are you more mad at the undocumented, or the people who hire them?
But if "wall off" the USA, we will all have a lot more time to putz around on archinect, because the labor force to build the buildings we design will have just taken a substantial cut.
Also, lets keep in mind most of those coming here from elsewhere are willing to endure hardship, scapegoating and tough, thankless jobs to do an honest day's work. Remind me again why they wouldn't make a good addition to the american experience if we could figure out a way to streamline the immigration process?
yeah a large group of republicans is paid off by big business, which is why bush and mccain are open borders/amnesty politicians.
and crowbert i always love it when people bring up the 'east germany/berlin wall' example. the u.s. border fence is the exact opposite - it does not imprison u.s. citizens.
and regarding the construction industry crumbling, didn't we build back in the 80's when there were only about 1 million illegal aliens here? sure it was bad po-mo but gosh, things were actually built ..
here's what i suggest (from the mccain thread):
1. build the fence (a double fence, not the reduced single fence).
2. throw employers of illegal aliens in jail (enforce the law)
3. jobs for illegal aliens will dry up, they will mostly self-deport
hopefully oe reads this, it always gives him a good laugh
1. build the fence (a double fence, not the reduced single fence).
2. throw employers of illegal aliens in jail (enforce the law)
3. jobs for illegal aliens will dry up, they will mostly self-deport
ok, but how will that prevent your concern about rising wages and prices if we make the present illegals leave? Their former employers will have to hire legals at at least minimum wage. And if you are not really concerned about wages and prices, then why not just make the present illegals legal, everyone wins all around?
Freeper - that was specifically pointing out that no matter what you do, you draw a line and people will have to cross it - There will always be immigration, and some of it will always be illegal (unless there are no rules at all.)
But put a police state on the case, and you'll reduce everything significantly. But if the secret police can't stop illegal immigration, what chance do you think our "open" (in quotes at the moment) society has?
And if you do #2, you won't need #1 (it would actually slow down #3 if you make it more of a pain in the ass to cross back, you know.)
Uh, there was a boom in the 80's due to speculative building, whose costs rose as demand increased - then, when costs were checked back into reality the construction industry did a pretty good crumbling impression. I remember trying to get a job in the tail end of that long stall (eight years into it!)
1. build the fence (a double fence, not the reduced single fence).
2. throw employers of illegal aliens in jail (enforce the law)
3. jobs for illegal aliens will dry up, they will mostly self-deport
ok, but how will that prevent your concern about rising wages and prices if we make the present illegals leave? Their former employers will have to hire legals at at least minimum wage. And if you are not really concerned about wages and prices, then why not just make the present illegals legal, everyone wins all around?
why not make present illegals legal?
as i said (maybe not clear enough) lower income people, with a high school diploma or less, are by and larger tax-takers throughout their life. the amount the pay is far outweighed by the amount they take.
u.s. citizens and legal immigrants who fall in this category - well we are obliged to take care of them. but from another country? coming here illegally? no thanks. it's not our problem.
roughly 10.5 billion dollars of tax money goes to illegal immigrants in california. california is far from breaking even on this deal, it's a huge loss.
if they are such hard-working, honest people, then they can stay in their country and fix their corrupt government.
so yes, wages would rise as employers would be forced to hire legal immigrants and citizens. but we would be able to offset this since the demand for social services would be greatly reduced. everyone wins!
and crowbert i have never claimed that items 1, 2, and 3 would stop all illegal immigration - just reduce it significantly to manageable levels.
I also like how two people can agree on 2/3rds of an argument (#2, #3 - not that I think #2 will ever happen) but since we are coming to the same conclusion from different points of view the other guy must be wrong, even when he agrees with me.
But Free, your statement was specifically about illegals that are here already. They are ALREADY doing the jobs which you describe, but because they are mostly paid under the table and are not citizens, they pay little or no taxes (I'm not even touching your comments on the "burden" of illegals because I haven't done my research on that, but I suspect there's a certain "lean" to your stats). So let's say we stop further illegal entry (ideally): we make the illegals already here legal; they get better wages and, being legal, pay their taxes, and live a less paranoid life, where, all kidding aside, they can think about better quality jobs and even better jobs for their children. Their employers don't have to hire new people, since the positions are already filled, and no longer have to hide their illegals. How does this hurt the country, exactly?
(I'm not even touching your comment on the "burden" of "lower income people": I sense a certain rancid smell of ideology attached to it and your figures.)
1. build the fence (a double fence, not the reduced single fence).
Yknow youd think we have bigger fish to fry, energy independence, healthcare reform, infrastructure development, but hey, if theres an extra 50 billion kicking around after all that knock your socks off.
2. throw employers of illegal aliens in jail (enforce the law)
Again, youd think the feds would have enough to be worried about that they wouldnt want to devote half their time to kicking down doors to prevent people from working... but whatever gets you off.
3. jobs for illegal aliens will dry up, they will mostly self-deport
I mean come on. Youre so worked up about immigration you named yourself Free Ramos and Compean and thats your big plan? So were dumping billions a year into taking care of these people anyway, you really dont think it makes sense to start having them actually paying back into the system in fines and taxes? Dont you think it makes a little sense to stop treating them like pariah so they can educate their kids and open up to preventative health care?
Im just saying, sometimes a little common sense goes a long way. I mean we have so many serious problems in this country, it makes me go numb in the head to think we would take money that could be going into technology grants and college assistance and dump it into a 1000 mile fence in the desert. You cant really believe scapegoating these people is the key to saving the US economy.
I really hope Free Ramos and Compean lives on an Indian reservation, because otherwise his argument is nothing more than, "Those people shouldn't be allowed inside because they showed up after my people already got here."
VOTE OBAMA
race/language doesn't bother me at all
at the end of the day, does it matter? it was Americans voting for what they think is best for the country.i'm only concerned with illegal immigration
but i'm quite used to everyone calling me racist, xenophobic, isolationist, etc. for my views
i know that my heart is for fairness; for legal immigrants and lower to middle class blue collar u.s. citizens. something like 1 billion people want to come to the u.s. - i don't think we should give special privileges to countries that share our border.
we agree 100% on this .. all the breaking down of the vote into 'how do african-american women vote? are they going to chose the african-american or the woman?' and 'hey look, white men in the south are voting for barack!'
i don't think it's productive
everyone has 1 equal vote
on all that we are 100% in agreement, free.
I am worried about illegal immigration too, our tactics for solving it are different though. I think that our immigration policies are so 1920's and we need 2020 vision that reflect global realities. Sadly I have to say this is the only issue that W and I were always in agreement on and I found that in that issue he actually showed a little leadership.
many MANY legal residents and citizens speak spanish though, so when you make sly comments it does not sound good.
With a Surge, Obama Makes His Case
The lopsided nature of Senator Barack Obama’s parade of victories on Tuesday gives him an opening to make the case that Democratic voters have broken in his favor and that the party should coalesce around his candidacy.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/13/us/politics/13assess.html?hp
fuck building a wall, they'll tunnel under or balloon over it. i say put a 20' concrete cap w/ 3/4" rebar and call her done.
you mean like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OX9S_m7W4UA
looks like it could very possibly end up obama vs mccain. i'm just very happy we have two good choices from which to pick!
can anyone explain to me why illegal immigration is bad? the US is one of the only, if not the only, industrialized nations where births outnumber deaths. the majority of these babies are being born to immigrants, illegal or not. if you think social security is in crisis here it's nothing compared to the catastrophe countries like japan face as their aging populations are no longer able to work.
according to our state demographer (director of the ky data center, a state agency) our state needs all the immigrants we can get, legal or no.
Free, watch some debates as opposed to talking rhetoric...he has actually said a lot of very specific information...specifically in the last debate...go to cnn and watch it if you are so inclined...or just continue to blindly bash someone who is doing well...seems to be the knee jerk reaction from the right...accuse falsely and repeat.
We need to start sending Edwards some email:
http://www.abcnews.go.com/Politics/Vote2008/story?id=4281404&page=1
Edwards Weighs Clinton Endorsement
Former Candidate Torn Between Clinton and Obama in Democratic Race
from the comments:
If Edwards backs Clinton there will be a price to pay, and progressive activists such as myself will waste no time exacting it from him. An Edwards endorsement for the corporate, establishment Democrat (Clinton) against the insurgent (Obama) would be an obvious sell-out for which Edwards will be deservedly raked over the coals by bloggers from coast to coast; and the obvious fact that such an endorsement could only be based on crude self-interest would render it meaningless among those who once held Edwards in respect. Indeed the mere fact that he is even considering a Clinton endorsement is a sell out as far as I'm concerned. If Edwards were truly interested in change, he would have endorsed Obama the day he dropped out of the race.
Posted by:
mceades 9:42 AM
Still...
Why Hillary Will Lose
By Dick Morris (ex clintonite)
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2008/02/why_hillary_will_lose.html
The John Edwards Endorsement: A Last Chance To Prove He's No Phony
http://www.motherjones.com/mojoblog/archives/2008/02/7191_the_john_edward.html
TOTAL VOTE:
Obama 9,373,334 50%
Clinton 8,674,779 46%
Others 726,095 4%
Puerto Rico Governor to endorse Obama
http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0208/Puerto_Rico_Governor_to_endorse_Obama.html#comments
don't worry, i watch the debates. i'm informed on obama's positions and i disagree with most of them.
obama has been very effective in cornering the 'hope/change' message. i hope for change and a better tomorrow, i just don't think taxing the rich to redistribute money to the poor is the right way.
and i don't think giving amnesty to illegal aliens will help either. answer me this: if we make all the illegal aliens legal (to raise wages as obama and clinton said) then suddenly we lose the cheap labor. so then all the goods and services we supposedly need become more expensive. won't this create a new demand for 'new' illegal alien labor? and isn't this a huge draw for illegal aliens to get here by any means, eventually you'll get citizenship? the last time this happened was when reagen gave amnesty to about 1 million illegal aliens in 1986. the promise back then (ted kennedy said) was to secure the border and never give amnesty again.
but hey, i'm just 'blindly bashing' barack because he's doing well. i really don't know anything. if i really wanted hope and change i would support him.
Clinton Ex-Campaign Manager Backs Obama
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8UPH9EG0&show_article=1
Clinton Ex-Campaign Manager Backs Obama
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8UPH9EG0&show_article=1
Clinton Ex-Campaign Manager Backs Obama
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8UPH9EG0&show_article=1
Defying Clinton campaign's predictions, Obama takes delegate lead
http://www.salon.com/politics/war_room/2008/02/13/delegates/index.html
ABC News:
Clinton: 1,205
Obama: 1,232
Associated Press:
Clinton: 1,198
Obama: 1,223
CBS News:
Clinton: 1,175
Obama: 1,242
CNN:
Clinton: 1,190
Obama: 1,215
Anybody for an Obama/Edwards ticket ?
In America it is certainly NOT one man-one vote: the electoral college system (and the unequal representation of large-state small-state representation, by two senators in every case), means that some persons' votes weigh more than others. There is a movement to alter or abolish the electoral college, I believe.
Clinton's 92 campaign manager David Wilhelm is to endorse Obama today:
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8UPH9EG0&show_article=1
SDR you're right - women have the right to vote, to
I love picking apart faulty logic on this forum...it's so much fun.
Free, I won't enter the debate on immigration right now, don't have that much free time, but I want to call you on one point:
answer me this: if we make all the illegal aliens legal (to raise wages as obama and clinton said) then suddenly we lose the cheap labor. so then all the goods and services we supposedly need become more expensive. won't this create a new demand for 'new' illegal alien labor?
Ok, think about that a little bit. The day these "aliens" get their green card, they will en masse leave their jobs doing landscaping work, picking fruits and vegetables, working in sweat shops and kitchens, because, of course, their amazing resumes will cause companies and corporations to chase them down and hire them on the spot and give them management level positions and make them CEO's...ROFL!
I asked above if anyone could explain to me why illegal immigration is bad and no one has attempted to answer. I ask this in all seriousness. I truly don't understand where the people who are against illegal immigration are coming from...
what are you talking about?
i never said illegal aliens would become ceo's .. just that the cost of this cheap labor (that supposedly keeps the u.s. economy afloat) would suddenly double (to get to minimum wage or slightly above)
then the fat slave-driving employers of todays illegal aliens will look for 'new' illegal aliens to pay under-the-counter slave wages.
(response to vamure)
1. fairness to all people who want to come to the u.s. - there is a process, yes it takes a long time and is complicated, but sharing a border does not mean we should give special privileges to those contries (i'm talkin' to you, canada!)
2. fairness to legal u.s. immigrants and lower to middle class blue-collar u.s. workers - both barack and hillary admitted in the last debate that illegal immigration labor depresses wages for lower to middle class workers.
barack said just before that that we shouldn't 'scapegoat immigrants for the problems of inner-city black youths' but he changed the question regarding illegal immigrants and pressure on african-american workers to a very specific group of african-americans (to make the question seem silly and racist). but shortly after that he said (illegal) immigrants do keep wages down. i watch the debates! i listen to barack's positions!
3. pressure on public schools, emergency rooms, and other social services - what illegal immigrant families do pay in taxes (sales tax, sometimes payroll tax) is much less than the tax money they take through kids in public schools and use of emergency rooms and other tax-supported infrastructure.
please come out to los angeles and look at the l.a. unified school district - it's a disaster. sorry but if the kids can't speak english and the parents can't help kids with school work then teachers spend all their time teaching english. i have nothing against speaking other languages but it hurts the kids in public schools who are trying to learn something.
All this with a republican president at the helm...tsk tsk tsk.
Then you must be advocating for the reverse - the illegal aliens here now stay illegal and in their terrible jobs so that the slave-driving employees won't fire them and cause more immigrants to stream across the border to replace them - otherwise why make that point? Is that some kind of acceptable solution to you?
Or, if you advocate just sending the present illegals back, and stopping future illegals, then the slave driving employers (correct that above too) will have to hire legal employess, and that will have the same effect, raise wages and thus prices, so what's the difference? Why not just make the present illegals legal?
exactly jason - bush is (like most things he does) a failure on this issue
bush is the main reason i'm not a registered republican
easily the worst president of the last 50 years
Any time you want to get clobbered over the head by big business for enforcing the labor laws of this country that already exist, you go ahead. The only way to stop illegal immigration (at this scale - you'll never stop it all - see: Leaving East Germany) is to vigorously prosecute anyone who hires illegal immigrants. Fences won't do it, locking up people a certain shade of brown won't do it. (At least you noticed all the secretly canadians out there Freeper) Not letting undocumented people into schools and emergency rooms won't do it. They come because we have jobs where they earn significantly more than what they can back home (and significantly less than what people make here).
Are you more mad at the undocumented, or the people who hire them?
But if "wall off" the USA, we will all have a lot more time to putz around on archinect, because the labor force to build the buildings we design will have just taken a substantial cut.
Also, lets keep in mind most of those coming here from elsewhere are willing to endure hardship, scapegoating and tough, thankless jobs to do an honest day's work. Remind me again why they wouldn't make a good addition to the american experience if we could figure out a way to streamline the immigration process?
so, Free, nothing to say about the last two?
yeah a large group of republicans is paid off by big business, which is why bush and mccain are open borders/amnesty politicians.
and crowbert i always love it when people bring up the 'east germany/berlin wall' example. the u.s. border fence is the exact opposite - it does not imprison u.s. citizens.
and regarding the construction industry crumbling, didn't we build back in the 80's when there were only about 1 million illegal aliens here? sure it was bad po-mo but gosh, things were actually built ..
here's what i suggest (from the mccain thread):
1. build the fence (a double fence, not the reduced single fence).
2. throw employers of illegal aliens in jail (enforce the law)
3. jobs for illegal aliens will dry up, they will mostly self-deport
hopefully oe reads this, it always gives him a good laugh
yay this will be comment #299, we're almost off this page!
i'll let y'all get back to the obamania, i promise
ok, here's 300
1. build the fence (a double fence, not the reduced single fence).
2. throw employers of illegal aliens in jail (enforce the law)
3. jobs for illegal aliens will dry up, they will mostly self-deport
ok, but how will that prevent your concern about rising wages and prices if we make the present illegals leave? Their former employers will have to hire legals at at least minimum wage. And if you are not really concerned about wages and prices, then why not just make the present illegals legal, everyone wins all around?
Freeper - that was specifically pointing out that no matter what you do, you draw a line and people will have to cross it - There will always be immigration, and some of it will always be illegal (unless there are no rules at all.)
But put a police state on the case, and you'll reduce everything significantly. But if the secret police can't stop illegal immigration, what chance do you think our "open" (in quotes at the moment) society has?
And if you do #2, you won't need #1 (it would actually slow down #3 if you make it more of a pain in the ass to cross back, you know.)
Uh, there was a boom in the 80's due to speculative building, whose costs rose as demand increased - then, when costs were checked back into reality the construction industry did a pretty good crumbling impression. I remember trying to get a job in the tail end of that long stall (eight years into it!)
So, again. Be careful what you wish for.
Oh well, some people just don't like to be called on their logic...tsk tsk.
Yea, back to the obamania.
2. throw employers of illegal aliens in jail (enforce the law)
3. jobs for illegal aliens will dry up, they will mostly self-deport
ok, but how will that prevent your concern about rising wages and prices if we make the present illegals leave? Their former employers will have to hire legals at at least minimum wage. And if you are not really concerned about wages and prices, then why not just make the present illegals legal, everyone wins all around?
why not make present illegals legal?
as i said (maybe not clear enough) lower income people, with a high school diploma or less, are by and larger tax-takers throughout their life. the amount the pay is far outweighed by the amount they take.
u.s. citizens and legal immigrants who fall in this category - well we are obliged to take care of them. but from another country? coming here illegally? no thanks. it's not our problem.
roughly 10.5 billion dollars of tax money goes to illegal immigrants in california. california is far from breaking even on this deal, it's a huge loss.
if they are such hard-working, honest people, then they can stay in their country and fix their corrupt government.
so yes, wages would rise as employers would be forced to hire legal immigrants and citizens. but we would be able to offset this since the demand for social services would be greatly reduced. everyone wins!
and crowbert i have never claimed that items 1, 2, and 3 would stop all illegal immigration - just reduce it significantly to manageable levels.
i gotta get ready for a 1:30 meeting
adios!
This is america - start speaking english freeper!
I also like how two people can agree on 2/3rds of an argument (#2, #3 - not that I think #2 will ever happen) but since we are coming to the same conclusion from different points of view the other guy must be wrong, even when he agrees with me.
[colbert]
I accept your apology.
[/colbert]
But Free, your statement was specifically about illegals that are here already. They are ALREADY doing the jobs which you describe, but because they are mostly paid under the table and are not citizens, they pay little or no taxes (I'm not even touching your comments on the "burden" of illegals because I haven't done my research on that, but I suspect there's a certain "lean" to your stats). So let's say we stop further illegal entry (ideally): we make the illegals already here legal; they get better wages and, being legal, pay their taxes, and live a less paranoid life, where, all kidding aside, they can think about better quality jobs and even better jobs for their children. Their employers don't have to hire new people, since the positions are already filled, and no longer have to hide their illegals. How does this hurt the country, exactly?
(I'm not even touching your comment on the "burden" of "lower income people": I sense a certain rancid smell of ideology attached to it and your figures.)
oh, forget the last statement, it was already written.
2. throw employers of illegal aliens in jail (enforce the law)
HAHAHA, republicans would never to that to their constituency.
Yknow youd think we have bigger fish to fry, energy independence, healthcare reform, infrastructure development, but hey, if theres an extra 50 billion kicking around after all that knock your socks off.
2. throw employers of illegal aliens in jail (enforce the law)
Again, youd think the feds would have enough to be worried about that they wouldnt want to devote half their time to kicking down doors to prevent people from working... but whatever gets you off.
3. jobs for illegal aliens will dry up, they will mostly self-deport
I mean come on. Youre so worked up about immigration you named yourself Free Ramos and Compean and thats your big plan? So were dumping billions a year into taking care of these people anyway, you really dont think it makes sense to start having them actually paying back into the system in fines and taxes? Dont you think it makes a little sense to stop treating them like pariah so they can educate their kids and open up to preventative health care?
Im just saying, sometimes a little common sense goes a long way. I mean we have so many serious problems in this country, it makes me go numb in the head to think we would take money that could be going into technology grants and college assistance and dump it into a 1000 mile fence in the desert. You cant really believe scapegoating these people is the key to saving the US economy.
I really hope Free Ramos and Compean lives on an Indian reservation, because otherwise his argument is nothing more than, "Those people shouldn't be allowed inside because they showed up after my people already got here."
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