so the span fell evenly; sure looks like a panel point failed right at the suport. Anyone want to start a betting pool on cause of faliure? Maybe new topic thread for that? My guess anchor bolts to to base plates sheared off and were never able to be visually inspected. Cause of shear - rust from roadsalt.
I'm sure it has been a long night for my friend at Kare TV....Life long
Minnesota person, and I'm pretty sure this is a bridge he traveled over every day back and forth to work.
I wonder how many other bridges are in the same shape???? Living in Cincinnati (on Ohio River) there were always news reports about the bridges and how they needed to be delt with, and mostly never were...
These bridges were not designed to carry the loads that we place on them today
they're building a new bridge to replace an old bridge over our water reservoir. not because of public safety.. but because it's over our water supply. they don't want it to fall in and contaminate the water. in a way, that's concerned with public safety.. but in a not so cool, smack in the face kind of way.
the latest structural report revealed none of the "issues" where urgent and that the bridge wouldn't need to be replaced until 2020. apparently, 40% of US bridges are in a similar condition.
""The Interstate 35W span rated 50 on a scale of 120 for structural stability, White House press secretary Tony Snow said.
"This doesn't mean there was a risk of failure, but if an inspection report identifies deficiencies, the state is responsible for taking corrective actions," he said.""
----this coming from an administration who thinks a 20% approval rating is a majority
i talked to my structural engineer today and he had a good thought. they were supposed to be doing just maintenance work and not structural work on the bridge, but if they were replacing deck and repouring areas, then it's possible that removal of areas of deck changed the unbraced length of the steel on the bridge, and would cause the steel to under-go some unanticipated movement and thus failure....
i live in the TC and i am left wondering, where was the Mayor last night, where was the Governor last night? why did they not have better prep, why wasn't lights brought in to aid the search, where was the temp shelters in case of thunderstorms, who was in charge??
why did the gov veto gas tax that would have paid for bridge and transportation costs?
say what you want about Ventura, at least that screwball would have been standing on the bridge leading the rescue. this governor would rather hide behind republican skirts and report confidently to the MN residents, that this was not terrorism....thanks asshole.
beta, on a bridge there is no difference between 'maintenance' and 'structural' work - the dot's of the world require full cd's on any of that work - they are constantly improving road materials and every surface is fully engineered - when you are a transport road engineer you are fully emedded in means and methods -- not anything like traditional a/e services.
i listened to w's comments -- someone should remind him that road was a federal interstate -- he was so pitiful saying he will send a secretary -- its his road - is funding that didnt pay for repairs properly as all $$$ goes to home land security / iraq. he only was concerned if it was an act of terror -- finding out it wasnt, he returned to his desert with laura.
TED: I would take point with you onf road materials getting better:
There is a term which is being used alot more these days and it is called, "Scuffing." You will notice it in parking lots and anywhere where people attempt to turn their car wheels when a vechile is not moving. The top coat rolls with the wheel of the car. I was looking at a parking lot not even six months old and it looks like it needs to be redone. I know the builder and the paving contractor, so I know they aren't trying to take the owner to task, it is the fricking new improved our inferior material being used.
TED, i agree, after hearing what my structural guy said, anything you do on the bridge needs to be considered quite carefully...i think what i was saying was echoing what the contractor was telling the press...
I was listening today to NPR and people were calling in and talking about pictures that they had taken and already posted on Flickr. I did some searches and found the following group and a few sets.
I wouldnt be in such a rush to blame Iraq War since any money going to it would most likely have gone to ending public smoking, weight loss for fat people and foam helmuts for a children prone to bumping into sharp objects. Bridge repair would be way down on the list below wrapping bridges in protective netting to prevent blind avian structure collisions.
aspect - the general decay of roman infastructure did coincide with the fall of Rome. I believe scholars talk more about the moral decline contribuiting to the fall than the roads crumbling. However, it has already been stated in local media that we're spending public money on stadiums while our infastructure is falling down. Good point as the general public generally spends more time worshiping their sports heros than concern for the infastructure in which they live amongst.
Still, I'm confused about the funding arguments blaming the state for dropping the ball. Beta already mentioned the gasoline tax. (Which I wasn't against, but would argue MN is a high tax state and doesn't need additional taxes/fees to maintain infastructure.)
This bridge is part of a federal interstate highway. Isn't that the fed's problem? Both for construction and maintenance? Admittedly I don't know all the specifics, but that's how I thought it worked. That's why I entertain the arguments about Iraq spending at the expense of the homeland, but not get on a soapbox castigating our state & local officials.
Tragedy aside, I'm sure MN will see a huge influx of federal dollars for reconstruction. Hopefully in the haste to rebuild quickly we don't end up with another ugly bridge. Let's build a civil engineering work of art that rivals any stadium. Make that our message.
Sherry Engebretsen, 60, of suburban Shoreview
Julia Blackhawk, 32, of Savage
Patrick Holmes, 36, of Moundsview
Artemio Trinidad-Mena, 29, of Minneapolis.
The fifth is a truck driver who they just pulled from a burnt tractor trailer, yet to be named.
Let's build a civil engineering work of art that rivals any stadium.
YES, YES, YES! we need more infrastructural works of art - I'm sick of these stadium extortion schemes lining corporate pockets resulting in butt ugly billboards that happen to have a sports field inside.
Is there an american equivalent of Calatrava creating sculptural structures?
senora presidenta is already here for a U of MN event, so the shrub is arriving? will he do a fly by or actually step off the plane and tell pawlenty that he's doing a heckuva job?
Shit, why can't we get Calatrava for a new bridge design? If an armpit like Milwaukee can get a Calatrava why can't Mpls. Didn't Norman Foster design some huge bridge in France? Maybe he's available.
Just one request, if we're building a new bridge make it large enough to accomodate rail for mass transit. We could use a commuter line into the north-eastern suburbs.
why import talent if there is a domestic equal? the operative word is equal. I have yet to see any american engineer with the same poetics and aesthetic flair.
I'd be happy with Calatrava, but why not have a design competition??? hey- that's a great idea. Whose game for helping organize it?
I consciously avoided all the post 9-11 design frenzies. I needed a year to recover from the emotional impact. The bridge collapse is a couple of order of magnitudes smaller in drama, casualties, deaths and economic impact, so I'm bouncing back already.
clamfam - its not just the iraq war - the only policy the bush administration has is defense - whats its economic policy - its educaton policy - its health care policy - and god forbid enviromental policy and lets face it - if they would have put 1/3 the effort and money into new orleans as they did post 9-11 there would be no one living in poverty in lousiana and all back in their homes.
this just shows how fragile the US is -
and yes - if you knew the amount of money you pay in taxes torward obesity and smoking you would be shocked - its the 'soft taxes' called health insurance and state income tax which contributes to those without income health care. i will guess 1/2 of your insurance premium [lets say $125 of the $250 premium / month= about $1500/year] goes torwards those two health complicated related issues.
the interstate road systems is a federal program [bushes program] and they need to pay attention and fund an aging infrastructure.
no sense loosing all those lives in the middle east if you cant use the gas on safe roads at home.
Unlike places such as Paris with its Eiffel Tower, San Francisco with its Golden Gate Bridge Minneapolis doesn't have a definitive and beloved structure that personifies the city and its people. We barely tolerate the Metrodome, we ignore the Target Center, the Weisman has critics and lovers, the Walker is bi-polar, the skyways get attention but they're a distributed collection and everything else, we tear down. So where does that leave us? Our sense of place as a city is defined by the water that flows around us. The Mississippi River gently curves its way from Minneapolis to Saint Paul to make the Twin Cities. It connects those in the city now to those who walked and worked it back then. The river has been our economic ticket too with near world dominance in the grain and milling industries (back then) and a key part of urban revitalization (right now). The media describes the bridge in terms of traffic and appearance calling it a "major artery" and of "unusual design". There is no catchy soundbite to explain how this concrete and steel represents a typical Minnesotan: understated, hard-working, and unusual if you look a little closer. For Minneapolis the bridges collapse rivals the Washburn "A" Mill explosion and the vestiges of the bridge will remain with us indefinitely.
...a definitive structure? typical Minnesotan: understated, hardworking and unusual. do you see? do you understand that you answered your own question?
perhaps those other cities need the flash, because their people are so into themselves that they need a singular and iconic symbol to represent them.
bush is in town, pledges to re-build the bridge. you hardworking, understated, and unusual Minnesotans know what that means; yep it will get rebuilt tomorrow, because up here in the northwoods - read: where the white people at - things just happen, like magic.
iamonhold I really disagree with you about Mpls not having a definitive structure. Growing up as a kid I always got excited and knew I was almost home when I saw the IDS tower and the glowing top of the Norwest/Wells Fargo buildings. And both of those buildings are made by famous architects (not that that matters).
The Mississippi river is not nearly as critical to Mpls life as you're saying it is. Any person from the city would say water is important but it's more likely the lakes in the city and the minehaha creek that connects them. Those were a waaay bigger part of my life than the river. As someone said, you don't really even know that you're going over anything, much less the Mississippi river, when you go over that bridge. I totally agree with that.
That an 'enhanced option' is not being considered for the I-35W Bridge replacement is another failure of MNDOT. The victims of the collapse and the residents of the twin cities deserve a great gateway and crossing of the Mississippi River. To not even consider this 'option' is tragic. We have an opportunity to do something better. Five lanes of traffic is not better, just more of the same.
Take MNDOT out of the decision making process and appoint an independent panel to oversee the design selection process. Even better would be an international competition for the best design.
Much agreed 'killer. MNDOT has been a failure since day #1. Just take a drive around town.
While I would like a "glamorous" bridge, this also should open a discussion about wether a 10 lane freeway should be slicing it's way right through the heart of Mpls in the first place.
I'm not naieve enough to think we can get away with eliminating 35W, but a relocation might make sense here. 280 seems like an ideal location for a new 35W and appears to be working fine. Make the existing 35W (and a new bridge) a more local and smaller road. Allow the cedar-riverside and university areas a better connection to downtown/elliot park neighborhoods.
Currently downtown is isolated by a river to the north and scary huge freeways to all other sides. I think major freeway access on 2 sides of downtown, in lieu of 3, is just fine. Of course MNDOT would never be that progressive thinking.
They've got these three on
Peter Bell: Chairman of the Metropolitan Council.
J. Richard Capka: Federal Highway Administrator
Paul Ostrow: Minneapolis City Council, Ward 1. He represents Northeast Minneapolis.
Twin Cities Shout Out.
the video on this NYTimes blog shows the bridge a few seconds before the collapse:
http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/08/02/following-the-minneapolis-bridge-collapse/index.html?hp
so the span fell evenly; sure looks like a panel point failed right at the suport. Anyone want to start a betting pool on cause of faliure? Maybe new topic thread for that? My guess anchor bolts to to base plates sheared off and were never able to be visually inspected. Cause of shear - rust from roadsalt.
Im glad we knew about this bridge being weak 6 yrs ago and did nothing about it...at least we are ridding the world of Al Queda...
I'm sure it has been a long night for my friend at Kare TV....Life long
Minnesota person, and I'm pretty sure this is a bridge he traveled over every day back and forth to work.
I wonder how many other bridges are in the same shape???? Living in Cincinnati (on Ohio River) there were always news reports about the bridges and how they needed to be delt with, and mostly never were...
These bridges were not designed to carry the loads that we place on them today
as long as they don't declare the bridge inventory report top secret! I've been hearing that about 25% of the bridges are is bad condition.
I'm waiting for video from the traffic cameras to be released... also there should be video from the adjacent lock on the river.
just saw a pic that shows the on of the piers at a slight angle. if this had shifted...
treekiller,
cnn has video of it from a security camera on one end of the bridge
honestly, i read the threat title so quick on the main page that i thought it said "twin cities shoot out" , wtf
they're building a new bridge to replace an old bridge over our water reservoir. not because of public safety.. but because it's over our water supply. they don't want it to fall in and contaminate the water. in a way, that's concerned with public safety.. but in a not so cool, smack in the face kind of way.
the latest structural report revealed none of the "issues" where urgent and that the bridge wouldn't need to be replaced until 2020. apparently, 40% of US bridges are in a similar condition.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article2186631.ece
40% heard on the radio was wrong...
"The American Society of Civil Engineers warned in a report two years ago that between 2000 and 2003, more than 27 percent of the nation's almost 600,000 bridges were rated as structurally deficient or functionally obsolete."
http://www.turkishpress.com/news.asp?id=187993&s=&i=&t=Bridge_collapse_raises_questions_over_US_infrastructure
re: inspections...
http://www.twincities.com/ci_6522474?source=most_viewed
I like how you have to go to a UK news website to get an accurate story on the US government's ineptitude...
I like how our country works...dont fix the problem until after it has broken
mdler
I was just thinking the same thing. I've learned more from the Telegraph and Turkish press than I have from any US source re: this disaster.
""The Interstate 35W span rated 50 on a scale of 120 for structural stability, White House press secretary Tony Snow said.
"This doesn't mean there was a risk of failure, but if an inspection report identifies deficiencies, the state is responsible for taking corrective actions," he said.""
----this coming from an administration who thinks a 20% approval rating is a majority
i talked to my structural engineer today and he had a good thought. they were supposed to be doing just maintenance work and not structural work on the bridge, but if they were replacing deck and repouring areas, then it's possible that removal of areas of deck changed the unbraced length of the steel on the bridge, and would cause the steel to under-go some unanticipated movement and thus failure....
Sitting here literally about a mile from where all this happened I'm not quite ready to start talking politics about this whole tragedy.
I'm sure there are still people drowned in their cars at the bottom of the river. There are still families that are waiting to hear from the missing.
It just doesn't feel right to make this political or pass blame at this time.
I'm still worried about the handful of friends i have yet to hear from.
i live in the TC and i am left wondering, where was the Mayor last night, where was the Governor last night? why did they not have better prep, why wasn't lights brought in to aid the search, where was the temp shelters in case of thunderstorms, who was in charge??
why did the gov veto gas tax that would have paid for bridge and transportation costs?
say what you want about Ventura, at least that screwball would have been standing on the bridge leading the rescue. this governor would rather hide behind republican skirts and report confidently to the MN residents, that this was not terrorism....thanks asshole.
they are going to do a full forensic re-construction...none for WTC...
beta, on a bridge there is no difference between 'maintenance' and 'structural' work - the dot's of the world require full cd's on any of that work - they are constantly improving road materials and every surface is fully engineered - when you are a transport road engineer you are fully emedded in means and methods -- not anything like traditional a/e services.
i listened to w's comments -- someone should remind him that road was a federal interstate -- he was so pitiful saying he will send a secretary -- its his road - is funding that didnt pay for repairs properly as all $$$ goes to home land security / iraq. he only was concerned if it was an act of terror -- finding out it wasnt, he returned to his desert with laura.
TED: I would take point with you onf road materials getting better:
There is a term which is being used alot more these days and it is called, "Scuffing." You will notice it in parking lots and anywhere where people attempt to turn their car wheels when a vechile is not moving. The top coat rolls with the wheel of the car. I was looking at a parking lot not even six months old and it looks like it needs to be redone. I know the builder and the paving contractor, so I know they aren't trying to take the owner to task, it is the fricking new improved our inferior material being used.
TED, i agree, after hearing what my structural guy said, anything you do on the bridge needs to be considered quite carefully...i think what i was saying was echoing what the contractor was telling the press...
I was listening today to NPR and people were calling in and talking about pictures that they had taken and already posted on Flickr. I did some searches and found the following group and a few sets.
Flickr is so amazing.
Group: http://www.flickr.com/groups/405518@N25/pool/
Individuals sets:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/diversey/sets/72157601161807401/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/danibora/sets/72157601162184237/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/drewgeraets/sets/72157601173254397/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/adamdi/sets/72157601177473879/
People are so small. It's weird but seeing pictures like these make me think of Fraggle Rock, like we're all just little workers.
I wouldnt be in such a rush to blame Iraq War since any money going to it would most likely have gone to ending public smoking, weight loss for fat people and foam helmuts for a children prone to bumping into sharp objects. Bridge repair would be way down on the list below wrapping bridges in protective netting to prevent blind avian structure collisions.
helping people loose weight would have delayed the collapse if the bridge was overloaded...
there was a phrase i heard long time ago saying, "when the roads of the roman was in decay, it was a sign of the empire to collapse"...
anyone knows the exact phrase?? would be interesting to revisit the meaning behind.
aspect - the general decay of roman infastructure did coincide with the fall of Rome. I believe scholars talk more about the moral decline contribuiting to the fall than the roads crumbling. However, it has already been stated in local media that we're spending public money on stadiums while our infastructure is falling down. Good point as the general public generally spends more time worshiping their sports heros than concern for the infastructure in which they live amongst.
Still, I'm confused about the funding arguments blaming the state for dropping the ball. Beta already mentioned the gasoline tax. (Which I wasn't against, but would argue MN is a high tax state and doesn't need additional taxes/fees to maintain infastructure.)
This bridge is part of a federal interstate highway. Isn't that the fed's problem? Both for construction and maintenance? Admittedly I don't know all the specifics, but that's how I thought it worked. That's why I entertain the arguments about Iraq spending at the expense of the homeland, but not get on a soapbox castigating our state & local officials.
Tragedy aside, I'm sure MN will see a huge influx of federal dollars for reconstruction. Hopefully in the haste to rebuild quickly we don't end up with another ugly bridge. Let's build a civil engineering work of art that rivals any stadium. Make that our message.
Feds dole out % of the $ to the loal DOT's, but they dont fix or build them themselves.
4 of the 5 confirmed dead:
Sherry Engebretsen, 60, of suburban Shoreview
Julia Blackhawk, 32, of Savage
Patrick Holmes, 36, of Moundsview
Artemio Trinidad-Mena, 29, of Minneapolis.
The fifth is a truck driver who they just pulled from a burnt tractor trailer, yet to be named.
The official missing is down to 8.
YES, YES, YES! we need more infrastructural works of art - I'm sick of these stadium extortion schemes lining corporate pockets resulting in butt ugly billboards that happen to have a sports field inside.
Is there an american equivalent of Calatrava creating sculptural structures?
El Presidente is coming to town tomorrow...that should help traffic. ugh.
senora presidenta is already here for a U of MN event, so the shrub is arriving? will he do a fly by or actually step off the plane and tell pawlenty that he's doing a heckuva job?
Shit, why can't we get Calatrava for a new bridge design? If an armpit like Milwaukee can get a Calatrava why can't Mpls. Didn't Norman Foster design some huge bridge in France? Maybe he's available.
Just one request, if we're building a new bridge make it large enough to accomodate rail for mass transit. We could use a commuter line into the north-eastern suburbs.
why import talent if there is a domestic equal? the operative word is equal. I have yet to see any american engineer with the same poetics and aesthetic flair.
I'd be happy with Calatrava, but why not have a design competition??? hey- that's a great idea. Whose game for helping organize it?
I consciously avoided all the post 9-11 design frenzies. I needed a year to recover from the emotional impact. The bridge collapse is a couple of order of magnitudes smaller in drama, casualties, deaths and economic impact, so I'm bouncing back already.
clamfam - its not just the iraq war - the only policy the bush administration has is defense - whats its economic policy - its educaton policy - its health care policy - and god forbid enviromental policy and lets face it - if they would have put 1/3 the effort and money into new orleans as they did post 9-11 there would be no one living in poverty in lousiana and all back in their homes.
this just shows how fragile the US is -
and yes - if you knew the amount of money you pay in taxes torward obesity and smoking you would be shocked - its the 'soft taxes' called health insurance and state income tax which contributes to those without income health care. i will guess 1/2 of your insurance premium [lets say $125 of the $250 premium / month= about $1500/year] goes torwards those two health complicated related issues.
the interstate road systems is a federal program [bushes program] and they need to pay attention and fund an aging infrastructure.
no sense loosing all those lives in the middle east if you cant use the gas on safe roads at home.
if so many people didn't live in their suburbs 45 minutes away from their office we wouldn't need an interstate road system.
better idea!
Unlike places such as Paris with its Eiffel Tower, San Francisco with its Golden Gate Bridge Minneapolis doesn't have a definitive and beloved structure that personifies the city and its people. We barely tolerate the Metrodome, we ignore the Target Center, the Weisman has critics and lovers, the Walker is bi-polar, the skyways get attention but they're a distributed collection and everything else, we tear down. So where does that leave us? Our sense of place as a city is defined by the water that flows around us. The Mississippi River gently curves its way from Minneapolis to Saint Paul to make the Twin Cities. It connects those in the city now to those who walked and worked it back then. The river has been our economic ticket too with near world dominance in the grain and milling industries (back then) and a key part of urban revitalization (right now). The media describes the bridge in terms of traffic and appearance calling it a "major artery" and of "unusual design". There is no catchy soundbite to explain how this concrete and steel represents a typical Minnesotan: understated, hard-working, and unusual if you look a little closer. For Minneapolis the bridges collapse rivals the Washburn "A" Mill explosion and the vestiges of the bridge will remain with us indefinitely.
ummmmm there is the gutherie or the Mill City Museum and the Stone Arch Bridge... people seem to like them.
...a definitive structure? typical Minnesotan: understated, hardworking and unusual. do you see? do you understand that you answered your own question?
perhaps those other cities need the flash, because their people are so into themselves that they need a singular and iconic symbol to represent them.
bush is in town, pledges to re-build the bridge. you hardworking, understated, and unusual Minnesotans know what that means; yep it will get rebuilt tomorrow, because up here in the northwoods - read: where the white people at - things just happen, like magic.
iamonhold I really disagree with you about Mpls not having a definitive structure. Growing up as a kid I always got excited and knew I was almost home when I saw the IDS tower and the glowing top of the Norwest/Wells Fargo buildings. And both of those buildings are made by famous architects (not that that matters).
The Mississippi river is not nearly as critical to Mpls life as you're saying it is. Any person from the city would say water is important but it's more likely the lakes in the city and the minehaha creek that connects them. Those were a waaay bigger part of my life than the river. As someone said, you don't really even know that you're going over anything, much less the Mississippi river, when you go over that bridge. I totally agree with that.
for peoples' reference. They're the buildings in the left.
That was fast! I guess we'll see tomorrow what's going in to replace it
Project manager Jon Chiglo specifically warned against expecting a glamorous soaring cable or suspension bridge.
Gag me.
That an 'enhanced option' is not being considered for the I-35W Bridge replacement is another failure of MNDOT. The victims of the collapse and the residents of the twin cities deserve a great gateway and crossing of the Mississippi River. To not even consider this 'option' is tragic. We have an opportunity to do something better. Five lanes of traffic is not better, just more of the same.
Take MNDOT out of the decision making process and appoint an independent panel to oversee the design selection process. Even better would be an international competition for the best design.
mndot
Much agreed 'killer. MNDOT has been a failure since day #1. Just take a drive around town.
While I would like a "glamorous" bridge, this also should open a discussion about wether a 10 lane freeway should be slicing it's way right through the heart of Mpls in the first place.
I'm not naieve enough to think we can get away with eliminating 35W, but a relocation might make sense here. 280 seems like an ideal location for a new 35W and appears to be working fine. Make the existing 35W (and a new bridge) a more local and smaller road. Allow the cedar-riverside and university areas a better connection to downtown/elliot park neighborhoods.
Currently downtown is isolated by a river to the north and scary huge freeways to all other sides. I think major freeway access on 2 sides of downtown, in lieu of 3, is just fine. Of course MNDOT would never be that progressive thinking.
Interesting discussion going on right now on MPR - streaming online
http://minnesota.publicradio.org/radio/programs/midmorning/
They've got these three on
Peter Bell: Chairman of the Metropolitan Council.
J. Richard Capka: Federal Highway Administrator
Paul Ostrow: Minneapolis City Council, Ward 1. He represents Northeast Minneapolis.
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