So I got my first design gig, and I would like help with all the stuff they don't teach you in school - how to research codes, requirements, things I don't even know I should do/research - and I thought, as I get further along in the design, I thought I would post some stuff, and maybe get some constructive criticism.
My hometown Church has been meeting in other spaces for as long as I can remember. They have never had an actual building to call home. About 7 years ago, they bought land, 2.5 acres in the middle of NoWhere, and thats where things stood. They have been waiting on God ever since, and I have been waiting for their call. It came last week. And yes, I made it clear, multiple times, that I cannot legally perform any Architectural Sevices.
The good news...
They have no set ideas for what the building should look like.
They agree that the building should fit the site.
They want to go about this properly, and are currently thinking 1.5 million as budget, but don't actually know.
They only have four people on the building commitee, and what they say goes.
They have a site survey.
My Boss has given me the ok to do all programming and schematic design on my own time, and then bring them in when things are more concrete.
The bad news...
They have no idea how to go about this.
They have no idea of program.
The Vision is that this place be a place of Rest, Refuge, and Service, and keep a low-profile.
I am very excited about this, but I don't know how to do programming, and I don't know how to begin. I have started some design sketches, but how do I calculate how much space is needed to seat 300 people, where do I find things like parking requirements? They are praying about every step, and leaving the whole thing up to God. They really are like that, its not just talk, but it can make for a very slow process.
So far, in programming, I know they need..
Worship Space
Fellowship Space (they like to eat)
Bathroom - with showers
Admin. offices
swimming pool - I know this sounds strange, but its where they baptise people - it becomes a big family cookout sort of thing. So are there special codes involving this?
Again, the Site is 2.5 acres, in the County, but not City, all sand, and shallow ravines. Definately challenging.
i think if you just do a mini-vals, the flock will love you forever...
as far as first steps... you have the survey, you've got the assessor's number... now the code.
land use - most municipalities have this posted online these days... this sets setbacks, building heights, envelope and (depending on zone) fenestration percentages, etc...
basically, one of the first documents i'll write up is a comprehensive land-use code review.
once that's settled, start breaking into programming issues...
as far as building codes, i tend to start in (local variant of IBC) sections 3 and 10 and working from there.
check the index for religious woship, places of
but yeah, researching code, something i'm still struggling to navigate.
in florida i did a few baptist churches, there were code issues for the font (which was a large dunking pond) - theirs had to be ada accessible.
they'll probably also need a kitchen. my advise would be to look at a few churches, study the plans to develop a list of necc. rooms. and corresponding sizes.
I used this in school to get a basic introduction to building codes and requirements. After reading it i better understood how to research and interpret codes. Nothing to heavy, but it was a good start.
Sarah, I have to be honest and ask the question: Why won't your boss' firm take this on as a project?
If the church wants a building, and they want to "do it right", then they need to have a professional design it, and they need to pay that professional. Part of an architect's work is to do Programming, which will answer all those questions. If you, as an intern, don't know how to do programming for a church, that's because you haven't been exposed to it in the professional practice realm. Having you try to work it out on your own is just asking for trouble. You could so easily end up with something totally off, and then even if you do take it to your firm, they will have to re-do it all before they can start, so the church will end up paying for it anyway.
I sense that your boss is trying to get you to do work for free. But you are bringing the job to the firm. In most instances this is worthy of a finder's fee or bonus to the employee. If your boss is saying you not only don't get a credit for bringing in the work, but you also have to do the first phase or two on your own time, that to me smells really fishy.
I have done programming for a dozen churches. Programming and SD is exactly the kind of valuable experience that an intern should be getting in a firm. Figuring out the codes, the parking, etc. is all part of that valuable experience. Your firm should be teaching you how to do this, and the church should be paying for the expertise of other members of your office as they help you to learn it.
Graphic Standards could *easily* give you tools for figuring out how big the sanctuary should be, its relationship to the narthex and nursery and sacristy, etc. But I just don't like the sound of this whole deal.
If the church doesn't have a lot of funding up front, well almost every church I worked on scheduled it thus: they contract with and pay the firm for programming and schematic design ONLY. The firm vets the SD with the building committee, then makes a lovely model and rendering which the church then use for fundraising.
If you desire to give of yourself to the church, which I can certainly understand, there are ways to do it within the context of the job being in your office. You can take on the fundraising in particular - talk to every single person in the congregation on your own time, make the rendering and model extra specially nice on your own time, take the proposal to the neighbors to get their support etc.
I hope for you to do this job - church work was extraordinarily rewarding work for me to do. I'm not a member of any church right now, but do still identify as a Christian (and will no doubt join a suitable church as my son gets older). Helping a community of people who want to do good in the world create the facility from which they will do this work and where they will come together to collectively reinforce their beliefs is a high calling for an architect. Good luck with it, but please think on/pray on what the right path to getting the job done correctly for everyone will be.
i have to agree when i first read your post i kind of wondered what was going on with your office. is the project too small for them to be interested? the method LB outlines above sounds the best way to deal with both funding and scheduling and makes it possible to start out with some idea of what to expect and where things are going. not having that kind of timeline may be fine if you think god is in charge, but it will make the entire experience more comfortable and positive if you all know what is going to happen and when (and WHY!) from the beginning. your office should help you with that. otherwise there are bound to be mistakes and redoes and things like that which will just not be any fun for anyone.
you may end up feeling more like job if you keep going that way...
Sorry, it never occured to me that you wouldn't know the firm issues. Duh.
The Firm I work for is a niche firm that does Funeral Homes, Mausoleums, and Cemeteries. Occasionally, we do a house for a good funeral client, but not too often. This is the main reason they want to wait. Second, they say we are busy, and Dang kid, I'll explain later.
5) code tells you how much square footage you need to assume for sitting people, standing people, dining people, etc - as a minimum, not what you actually might need.
6) $1.5m won't take you very far.
in the current climate, i'm guessing you'll build max 10,000sf if you use wood frame house-like construction.
maybe about the same if you follow the model of a lot of rural/startup churches and use a prefab metal building as a starting place.
if you're thinking masonry or if you're hoping to do anything unusual with the construction (form, method, finish, whatever), you're looking at more like 6,000sf, i.e., about the size of ONLY a sanctuary for 300 people.
special construction where you get to invent details and really control decisions about how something will get built changes the rules even further. as an example, i'm working on a project now in which we'll renovate an existing 1400sf chapel (single space) and build a 1500sf support building (restrooms, etc) for about $1.5m.
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first order of business is to get their wish list. treat it like a brainstorming exercise. glean from them everything they think they might want. don't say no; don't let them say no until it's all out there on the table. then prioritize the wish list: what's absolutely necessary, what's just wishes and dreams. you can take this away and begin to determine where there might be overlaps: where is a 'dream' that can be accommodated in a 'need' space, etc.
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then, and only then, AFTER you know their wishes, you'll need to talk to them about budget. let them know that current institutional construction (and this is in ky; tx may be worse) can be as much as $225/sf.
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separate from what lb said, in addition to your firm's involvement, you're going to need the involvement of a civil engineer to help you understand potential site use. where are you gonna park 150-200 cars? how are you going to manage stormwater - especially if you need it to go where you thought you were parking cars? do you have a topo? where do you put a pool? is it obvious where power, water, sewer are coming from? is there sewer, or will you have to accommodate septic/lateral fields? etc...
Ok, where was I, oh yeah, our firm is busy, and apparently, understaffed. Also, they are a high-end firm, and charge a pretty penny for their expertise, a pretty penny the Church doesnt have.
What I have suggested to the Firm is that they allow me to head the project, and do it at a low-rate. The Church doesn't want me to do this for free, however, I am willing to DONATE my time, and charge for reimbersables - it is a tax write off.
And just let me say WOW. This architecture stuff is tough. The only questions I have answers to are Yes, they will need a septic system (and they've already asked me about it, aerobic, ect ??? and I just told them the Engineer would have to do that), and they DONT want a metal building - I asked. They don't need me if thats what they want, and I told them that. There would be better people to do that job.
Looks like my lunch break will be busy. Too bad the comitte hasn't emailed me back about program issues.
One of the major masterplanning projects I did - for St. David's Episcopal in downtown Austin, TX - we created a questionnaire for the entire congregation. Separate questionnaires were made for various committees/groups - Music, Clergy, Childcare, Vesting, Youth Group. We asked them what issues they had with their existing facilities (not so much an issue for you, unless they want to critique their borrowed spaces) and some specific questions about what they wanted in their new facilities. For square footage assessments, we asked them to do comparisons: should the main vesting room be the size of a typical bedroom, a typical master bedroom, or bigger?
This may be getting too specific, but it is a great way to get a lot of information AND to make everyone feel like they are involved.
Sarah ... recognizing this may be controversial and contrary to what you might prefer, have you asked your building committee these two questions: a) are you really in a position to build at this time? and b) does it really make sense to build this facility out in the middle of NoWhere?
Sometimes building "something" before you have the money required to build "what you need / what you want" is a really bad bet. The facility may never function the way they need it to function, and maintenance and remodel costs over time may be excessive, compared to waiting a few more years.
Sometimes it's our job to make sure our clients have thought through their building program. It's not uncommon to steer a client to a renovation opportunity or suggest they wait until costs or market conditions improve. Perhaps you can be more valuable to them by not designing this new facility. Helping them develop an appropriate long-range facility strategy may be in both your best interests and theirs.
I'm realizing more and more that what architects do is only party design. We're actually often hired as strategic planners, helping our clients make decisions about the future of their organizations (whether the clients realize it or not.)
Think about the church not just as a building designer, bu as a strategic planner. They'll thank you for it.
I have been thinking of future expansion. The may possibly have 80 acres somewhere near in the future, and have considered that the building I'm to design now may become simply administration. I am thinking more compound than single building, though with only 2.5 acres, theres not much compounding to be had. The strategic planner idea is a good one to keep in mind, though.
They bought the particular site because God said to. All logic says its a terrible place, but God works in mysterious ways, so I'm not going to question it.
I have the feeling that after preliminary design, they will simply wait on God, and wont build until the money is there. Thats the kind of people they are.
I guess I should give them a week to email back, huh. I let them know I couldn't do much until then.
I know very little about the details of this project, but just as a precedent idea is a church done by the Rural Studio that was published in the book of a few years ago about the Studio after Mockbee's death. It has a small, but very nice pool done for baptisms, is a much smaller congregation I think, and probably a more generous budget despite the inherent poverty of the users, but I think it's worth looking at.
Not sure if this is much help but my husband's "home church" built a church a few years ago with a non-profit group. The church paid for materials and such and this group came out and built it for free (I believe). I am most certain that they did not spend much on it. It is in the middle of nowhere Georgia also. I am not sure if you or the church is familiar with this group but it would be worth looking into. I will get some for info for you if you want.
Sarah...funny my first project outside of grad school was to sit on a committee for the restoration for one of the oldes cathedrals (RC) in the western hemisphere. Copper domed roof, 5' thick concrete and stone walls, inner city, you name it. Initially they were so excited and wanted to get it started right away. Luckily my youth was sided with an experienced Architect and a Quanitity Surveyor who was oddly enough Jewish. Much of the desires from the parish ran counter to the historic committees and it was a mess. In the end/beginning the best decision after about a year fighting was to advise them that this wasn't a project for now, rather to line up the ducks for later. Nearly 10 years later they have started the first phase of the project which is the restoration of the original murals painted by Spanish Monks.
I say this because it is sometimes better to advise them to wait, but keep an open mind. And as others have said in support of faith, to pray on it.
Btw for most denominations there are publications that document basic religious structures, and I do remember seeing one on ecumenical design.
Best of luck, and if you need an expert...I'm sure you can find a few on archinect
Further put all correspondence to your firm/church in writing.
king, my parent's church used a group called Mission Builders - retired carpenters who build for room and board, basically. The congregation took turns bringing them lunches every day!
sarah - take what lb and a few others are saying very seriously in this sense: if you don't know how to really approach this project and do it well, get some help. even if it's not your current firm - find a non-profit community design center or someone. not just because you are unlicensed (which has it's own attendant issues - just one to think about: what happens if a parishioner or even a visitor does the proverbial slip and fall? or if you miss an ada requirement? are you prepared to deal with a potential lawsuit on the back end? do you even know if you'd qualify for insurance? (the answer is no)) but because you - YOU - have an ethical obligation to your client to make sure you don't mislead them, even if with the best of intentions.
all of that is not to say you should just totally walk away from the opportunity, but that you seriously need to take some stock of what it is that you can truly offer on your own. honestly, from your own descriptions, i'm a little dubious at best. even if i give your 'design' and analytical skills all due credit, there is a whole range of attendant 'design' issues it doesn't sound like you're even aware exist.
in reading through your firm issues, it sounds like they may simply not want to stray outside of their 'comfort' zone. okay, whatever. that's their issue. like i mentioned above - find some help. contact the 1% solution - see if they can help pair you up with another firm in the area to do it. go to a cdc; heck, even just see if you can find someone through the local aia.
this isn't a school assignment, where your decisions are largely context free. even in programming and sd, as it's been pointed out, you're going to really set the hard parameters everyone is working off of from then on. if you don't have a good grasp on why certain construction assemblies cost more than others, for example, how are you going to begin to make an informed recommendation from which to generate a solid cost estimate?
i'm sorry to sound like the frumpy prick from the west, but i take the 'professional' aspect of our profession very seriously. you absolutely can learn a lot through this experience but from everything i've read, there is a lot to be gained - for you, for the congregation, etc - from bringing someone else more qualified in to really lead the process and teach you along the way....
Sorry but a novice designer teamed with an inexperienced client group, who have no sense of what they need to build, what they want to build and how much they can build just sounds like a train wreck waiting to happen.
I would still move through the process because its important to work through the process with jobs that may not go anywhere so you understand, when a project has "some legs" vs dreamers who don't have a clue.
Lastly don't fall in love with the project, certainly have a passion for the work but be realistic with the clients and their goals, and be prepared to walk away.
There isn't a single project that I don't love so much that I would walk away from .... don't forget its a business! and an understanding of good business decisions is part of that process.
I don't feel as pessimistic/fatalistic as whistler. You have an opportunity to pace slowly through each step together with the client, easily forgiving each other for any occasional slight misstep.
Short of calling this an apt pairing, if you're cerebral and intensive enough, this could be an immensely rich experience for you.
Be as communicative as possible and lean heavily on willing experts. But this last piece of advice isn't specific to only this stage of your career.
I'm not fatalistic just a little more hardened. At this point in my career I look for projects which I would be happy to show off and are interesting, picking up jobs for cash flow is not as critical as it once was. That being said I needed to learn the basics that they don't each you in school and thats learning to land a job. So even if the project is a go or not going through the process of landing a client and getting a contract is a huge step in any young architects career. Even today the ability to land a client and "close the deal" is still fun and exciting.
I am not saying don't do it but have in the back of your mind " holly shit, I should run away fast before I 'm associated with this project". Some of the best advice you might give someone is to avoid the project altogether. Doing a project just for the "doing it" isn't really in anyone's best interest particularly if its of no value to the client, community, site or nobody can afford it.
Then I think we're mostly in agreement. I've been in Sarah's place before, young with no solo experience but enough drafting and construction administration work to feel like I could give it a serious go when an old friend came along with an idea.
Though I certainly was concerned that a major misstep would mar any reputation I wanted to forge in a small town and betray my client's good faith in me, I poured my heart into each task, asked the right questions, and always conducted myself as if I had a boss looking over my shoulder. In the end, the project worked out more splendidly than I originally imagined and to this day the client and I are both really happy with the fruits of our fledgling effort.
Needless to day, the experience was immeasurably valuable in gaining business experience. Sarah, you're the best judge of this project's potential success.
So does everybody think I should draft up some form of paperwork stating that I am in NO WAY performing Architectural Services, and that all work is preliminary/not for construction, ect?
Construction documents stamped by a registered architect don't necessarily need to even list Sarah's name on them though, obviating any legal liability.
So, waterhouse, how do you balance erasing yourself for liabilty purposes, and keeping yourself named for credit purposes? Best case, this turns out to be a masterpiece (hey, I said best case), how would I keep credit for the design?
I would say it's best for your client to hire an architect that either they or you have some working experience with or some kind of past history. Have a few meetings in the early stages to allow the client to communicate that you are the design consultant. As the whole thing starts to move forward, I would say demonstrate your desire to be quarterback by setting a deadline for the architect to receive your CAD files. If you're coordinating things successfully between the client and their architect, they will both take you seriously.
As for credit, if you're thinking of applying for awards after completion I believe you can be listed as "design architect" alongside the registered "architect of record." Someone else may want to chime in on that one. For other types of credit - while I'm getting ahead of myself - it's hard to foresee an architect of record objecting to you including this work in your portfolio?
I am in about the same boat as you. I have a -potentially- big project with a Church, the priest is an old friend. Similarly, they have a loose program, no idea how much it will cost or how much time it will take. I started things off with a coffee shop presentation to the priest last week, just going over basic ideas - very abstract.
Now he wants me to put together a proposal, basically a fee proposal, which I'm real fuzzy about. I asked a principal at my last firm and he gave me some basic guidelines - figure out how many drawings you'll need, expect to work 40 hours for each drawing, multiply times your hourly fee. The total of all those hours should be your maximum bill. Since churches can give people tax certificates instead of money (like when you donate a car), I may do a combo of cash/tax rebate.
This website also has some helpful tips for figuring out sizes based on capacity Church Building 101
I'm also not licensed, although I'm more than halfway through and actively taking exams. I don't know what to call myself, design consultant? I made it clear that I'm not licensed yet. I'm unemployed but just got an offer at a self-proclaimed 'relaxed' office that pays pretty well. It might just be the perfect combination to do the work and not starve.
This is my new favorite post. Looking forward to hearing some wisdom.....Hope to share whatever I learn about the process along the way (assuming the Church board doesn't balk)....
I recieved an email this weekend from the Church building commitee. I had asked them previously to send me a topo survey so that I could design the building. I told them that they would need one whether they went with my design, or a concrete pad, just for dirt-work estimation. They responded - after a couple of weeks - saying they feel, in their 'layman's thinking' (their words, not mine) that sending a topo survey would be in error because the site would be graded anyway. It seems that they believe the topo would have to be redone after the grading to get them right. I was hoping I could use one of the ravines that is on the site, to locate an under-building outdoor prayer chapel.
Are there other reasons that they should go ahead with the topo survey? For some reason, I don't feel my 'prayer chapel' qualifies as a good enough reason to have them spend the money for topo.
Here is the email.
The reason for this email is to tell you that we will not be mailing a topographical survery of the site at this time. In our layman's thinking this would be fruitless since the property will be graded and there the survey would be in error. If our thinking in this direction is erroneous, please let us know.
Sarah ... while this may be lost on your client(s) ... a topo certainly describes existing conditions, but it also provides the information that you need a) to design the project so that a minimum of site work is required, and b) to direct the contractor about the sitework that he'll be hired to undertake.
You cannot design efficiently without an existing conditions topo. The civil drawings cannot be designed without an existing conditions topo. The sitework contractor can't do his work without knowledge of what conditions exist when he mobilizes on site -- a visual survey isn't enough.
This is such a very basic requirement of every project, I recommend that you SERIOUSLY avoid moving forward on this project in a design role if they're not willing to provide you with this fundamental information. You're already in a somewhat precarious liability situation -- IMHO, not having this information makes your situation even worse. Your client(s) are being frugal in an inappropriate, misguided way.
I missed this thread the first round. there is a third path worthy of exploring. JOINT THE BUILDING COMMITTEE.
You will be in a better professional spot to be the client/project manager for the congregation then being the designer.
I 2nd on the responses about the topo - also you need a boundary survey before proceeding. They should have gotten this when they purchased the plot - if not, then they MUST have this before any further work.
TK, they do have a boundary survey. They sent that to me. Its pretty sparce.
And, I can't join the building commitee as I am no longer a member of the Church, I don't live in the town, and I wasn't asked. I did offer to be a liazon between them and an Architect if they wanted.
I hate to say this, and I mean no disrespect, but this has disaster written all over it. Your church needs an architect with previous church experience (which rules out your current firm, I think), and they definitely need somebody on the front end of this thing that can seriously guide them right out of the box on planning, programming AND, most important, a realistic idea of budget BEFORE any design work is done. To start doing any design sketches before any of the other preliminary steps are taken is simply unprofessional and will not serve the client (your church) well at all. I would suggest that in this case, your best value to your church may be as liaison with a different firm...a firm that you might help research for them. Although you would not get credit for bringing a job to your current firm (it sounds to me like they are not all that interested anyway), you would most likely get huge credit from your church for helping guide them in the right direction. Maybe you should volunteer to be on the building committee. Although you are not currently an "expert" in church design, I think you would gain extremely valuable experience by serving on the building committee and working closely with a qualified professional architect (qualified and experienced in religious architecture). Ultimately, I think both you and your church would find far greater benefit in this type of arrangement.
I know you want to "design," but by your own admission you are not qualified to do this...yet.
Do you think some of this is an overraction? Churches don't build often, once a generation if they're lucky, and the board is made up of volunteers. That's true of any church. So they're not going to understand basic stuff like needing a survey, unless they have a professional or two on the board.
I don't think seeing that (awful) email means quitting time, but its definitely a revelation as to how much hand holding this client will need. They DID say "if our thinking is erroneous please let us know". So they're just guessing, and they need to be educated. It sounds ridiculous to us, but to them, they have no idea why an existing conditions drawing is needed. Once you give them a simple explanation, and you ask to make sure they understand, the issue should be over - they will learn something, and trust you more as the professional resource that you are.
They met with the surveyor, and he confused them with talk of levels, ect, and asked to speak to me. Once I got in touch with him, I requested a proposal for 2' contours and 3" trees. He came back with 1800$ and I sent his bid on to the Comittee. They got back to me saying they would like to get quotes from other surveyors - he was hard to get ahold of - (they are to get me names and contact info) and, that since the Hurricane blew through, and trees were down on the site, would like to wait until after they had a chance to clean it up, and remove the trees that were damaged.
This all seems reasonable to me, and so I am on hold. I told them that once they cleaned up the site and gave me contact info, I would request proposals, and then send them on to the Commitee. Basically, I am planning to act as go-between.
Since they are cleaning the site themselves, it will be a while.
I feel like a missed some posts in here. Agree completely about the sit survey.
In my ten years doing church work, a condition of our contract was always that the church get a professional site survey done - on their own dime, a totally separate contract from ours - before we would do any work beyond programming questionnaires.
Any architect they hire, you or someone else, will most likely require this, for all the reasons quizzical lists above.
So now you have some time - while they are cleaning up - to research some additional surveyors, though I'd guess $1800 is appropriate. Can you ask other architects who do church work who they have used?
No, LB. Its a small small town, and Dallas is 2.5 - 3 hours away. But I did ask my mentor if 1800 sounded good. He said it seemed fair. This will certainly come to light when other survey quotes come in.
wow good luck sarah, i missed this thread at the start but if you could keep this thing going through the process, id imagine this could really turn into an incredibly valuable tool for us younger 'nectors
I went to the library to research the codes for this project, and lets just say ..... They should teach a class in effectively understanding the IBC.
Here are some things I know, and also, some questions. I am sure there are more things I need to know that I don't even know I need to know. Hows that for lost.
The building is A-3, its under IBC 2003 with no county codes to ad, just the Texas ADA stuff.
Type V construction sounded like typical wood stud framing - is this true? I found that with sprinklers I can have 2 stories, and 11,500 sqft, and without, 1 story - 6,000 sqft. Does a story constitute floors, or is it based on height? Can I have a two story space, and it still be one story?
Are metal studs a type I construction? The building can be unlimited sqft then, it seems.
When determining area/occupant load, do I need to consider each room seperatly; i.e. the reception hall, class rooms, sanctuary?
This will be important in determining type of Construction.
How large of a site do you have this will be important in determining the type of Construction.
Think of WACO.....type V B construction. Burn Baby Burn.
Most Likely the Sanctuary is going to be the largest Occupany Load.
Fixed seating I would assume.
Parking count is controled by Local Zoning Codes. and ADA Codes....as ammended by the State of Texas I would assume. Sometimes the state screws around with the size of the space, so be sure to check that as well.
You might want to take this back to the office where you were working and try to strike a deal with them and the church. Maybe
under the guidance of someone in the office you can learn alot
and provide the Church a grand project. Sometimes offices
would see this as a pro-bono project. They also see it as an
opportunity to toss young ones into the water....and well let them
swim, long as they have a life vest on. They might do alot of
splashing around but their certain not to drown, as long as it is a
certified life jacket you be wearing. Other wise you might be
swimming up stream for a long time trying to put this thing together.
maybe this is a project you can take to an office and work on as a volunteer, like you were talking about in other thread...i couldn't offer any advice about how to approach a firm so that everyone would be happy, but as your old firm has no experience with such projects i am guessing they are not the right match to start with. still, if this project does go ahead it may be a good way to get yourself into a better job...
These are pretty fundamental things, so here's some more help to get you get started. You'll definitely need to partner with someone so you don't get in trouble! Also go get the Ching "Building Codes Illustrated". That's a good resource. Also note that in the front of the IBC there is a standard methodology for building "design" (the life safety part) that you can follow. I don't know anything about Texas, so I'm going just based on the unamended IBC.
Q: Type V construction sounded like typical wood stud framing - is this true? I found that with sprinklers I can have 2 stories, and 11,500 sqft, and without, 1 story - 6,000 sqft. Does a story constitute floors, or is it based on height? Can I have a two story space, and it still be one story?
A: Type V is typically ordinary wood platforming framing like you would see in Single Family Residential, although since it is the least restrictive construction type it could in fact be anything.
A: A story is a habitable level (which in the building code is any floor that isn't otherwise characterized as a mezzanine). The actual height of the space doesn't matter, at least as much as it pertains to the heights that you are talking about. So yeah, you can have a 24' high single story building, no problem. On stuff like this, check out the definitions in the front of the chapter in question - the terminology that they use is definitive and allows you to forget any other meanings particular terms might have outside of that particular code book.
Q: Are metal studs a type I construction? The building can be unlimited sqft then, it seems.
A: Type I construction has structural members that are composed of non-combustible framing, typically of either fire-rated steel or concrete. The interior partitions are typically light gauge metal framing. As Snook mentioned, construction type is usually where the program required area can fit into the cheapest (highest) construction type allowed under the code. So if you are only talking about 10-15K SF, Type I would be overkill. Most likely you will be looking at Type III or Type V. Some buildings are permitted to have unlimited areas if they are III or better and have 60' yards around them. Think of your local Target.
Q: When determining area/occupant load, do I need to consider each room seperatly; i.e. the reception hall, class rooms, sanctuary?
A: Occupant load in this case needs to be calculated based on the use and area of each room. The table is in Chapter 10 of the IBC.
Q: How do I determine how much parking is required?
A: As snook sez, this is usually dicated by the city, township or county zoning/development/land use code (whatever they care to call it). This should tell you the number of square feet of building area of a particular use per required parking space as well as the sizes and drive aisle widths. I've never worked in a jurisdication where the state mandated the size, but one never knows. Once you know the required number of spaces, the normal thing to do is apply the ADA/local Accessibility code to find out how many of those spaces need to be disabled accessible. It's typically 2%, but can vary for particular uses such as doctor's offices where the bureaucrats foresee a need for more accessible spaces.
Thanks, guys. Seems I have some calls to make. The clients didnt give me a square footage, so I'm wonder if I can figure it out backwards, you know, by saying "we want a space for 600 people, so I need X number of sqft."
I tried calling the county about the codes, ect, but they didnt understand my question. Maybe if I call and can get the plan reviewer on the phone I can get more information. What happens if there are no codes to follow in the county?
Those would be Zoning Codes you be asking about Sarah? Check to see is there is a Planning office on the County Level. I kind of think there must be something in place. Then again a few years ago I heard there was no Zoning in Houston, so go figure. Then again maybe that is urban legend. If there is no regulation for parking then you should use numbers that make since for parking. Usually it is based upon the size of the assembly hall. One parking space for every 4 seats in the assembly area is a good place to start. Do remember in laying out the site, you have to consider drainage and where all the run off water is going. This might envolve a Civil Engineer, as people tend to get nasty when water run off has been changed up stream of them and they find their property flooded. Sometimes the water has to be retained on site and allowed to flow off site at a slower pace. Basicly your building a temporary water basin with an outlet sized to allow for a slower rate of water movement off the site over a longer period of time.
First Design Gig
So I got my first design gig, and I would like help with all the stuff they don't teach you in school - how to research codes, requirements, things I don't even know I should do/research - and I thought, as I get further along in the design, I thought I would post some stuff, and maybe get some constructive criticism.
So, all that said above, here is the actual gig.
My hometown Church has been meeting in other spaces for as long as I can remember. They have never had an actual building to call home. About 7 years ago, they bought land, 2.5 acres in the middle of NoWhere, and thats where things stood. They have been waiting on God ever since, and I have been waiting for their call. It came last week. And yes, I made it clear, multiple times, that I cannot legally perform any Architectural Sevices.
The good news...
They have no set ideas for what the building should look like.
They agree that the building should fit the site.
They want to go about this properly, and are currently thinking 1.5 million as budget, but don't actually know.
They only have four people on the building commitee, and what they say goes.
They have a site survey.
My Boss has given me the ok to do all programming and schematic design on my own time, and then bring them in when things are more concrete.
The bad news...
They have no idea how to go about this.
They have no idea of program.
The Vision is that this place be a place of Rest, Refuge, and Service, and keep a low-profile.
I am very excited about this, but I don't know how to do programming, and I don't know how to begin. I have started some design sketches, but how do I calculate how much space is needed to seat 300 people, where do I find things like parking requirements? They are praying about every step, and leaving the whole thing up to God. They really are like that, its not just talk, but it can make for a very slow process.
So far, in programming, I know they need..
Worship Space
Fellowship Space (they like to eat)
Bathroom - with showers
Admin. offices
swimming pool - I know this sounds strange, but its where they baptise people - it becomes a big family cookout sort of thing. So are there special codes involving this?
Again, the Site is 2.5 acres, in the County, but not City, all sand, and shallow ravines. Definately challenging.
i think if you just do a mini-vals, the flock will love you forever...
as far as first steps... you have the survey, you've got the assessor's number... now the code.
land use - most municipalities have this posted online these days... this sets setbacks, building heights, envelope and (depending on zone) fenestration percentages, etc...
basically, one of the first documents i'll write up is a comprehensive land-use code review.
once that's settled, start breaking into programming issues...
as far as building codes, i tend to start in (local variant of IBC) sections 3 and 10 and working from there.
check the index for religious woship, places of
but yeah, researching code, something i'm still struggling to navigate.
in florida i did a few baptist churches, there were code issues for the font (which was a large dunking pond) - theirs had to be ada accessible.
they'll probably also need a kitchen. my advise would be to look at a few churches, study the plans to develop a list of necc. rooms. and corresponding sizes.
and storage, lots of it...
I used this in school to get a basic introduction to building codes and requirements. After reading it i better understood how to research and interpret codes. Nothing to heavy, but it was a good start.
Building Code Illustrated:
http://www.amazon.com/Building-Codes-Illustrated-Understanding-International/dp/0471099805
Sounds like it could be a fairly complex project, good luck.
my prayers will be with you.
Sarah, I have to be honest and ask the question: Why won't your boss' firm take this on as a project?
If the church wants a building, and they want to "do it right", then they need to have a professional design it, and they need to pay that professional. Part of an architect's work is to do Programming, which will answer all those questions. If you, as an intern, don't know how to do programming for a church, that's because you haven't been exposed to it in the professional practice realm. Having you try to work it out on your own is just asking for trouble. You could so easily end up with something totally off, and then even if you do take it to your firm, they will have to re-do it all before they can start, so the church will end up paying for it anyway.
I sense that your boss is trying to get you to do work for free. But you are bringing the job to the firm. In most instances this is worthy of a finder's fee or bonus to the employee. If your boss is saying you not only don't get a credit for bringing in the work, but you also have to do the first phase or two on your own time, that to me smells really fishy.
I have done programming for a dozen churches. Programming and SD is exactly the kind of valuable experience that an intern should be getting in a firm. Figuring out the codes, the parking, etc. is all part of that valuable experience. Your firm should be teaching you how to do this, and the church should be paying for the expertise of other members of your office as they help you to learn it.
Graphic Standards could *easily* give you tools for figuring out how big the sanctuary should be, its relationship to the narthex and nursery and sacristy, etc. But I just don't like the sound of this whole deal.
If the church doesn't have a lot of funding up front, well almost every church I worked on scheduled it thus: they contract with and pay the firm for programming and schematic design ONLY. The firm vets the SD with the building committee, then makes a lovely model and rendering which the church then use for fundraising.
If you desire to give of yourself to the church, which I can certainly understand, there are ways to do it within the context of the job being in your office. You can take on the fundraising in particular - talk to every single person in the congregation on your own time, make the rendering and model extra specially nice on your own time, take the proposal to the neighbors to get their support etc.
I hope for you to do this job - church work was extraordinarily rewarding work for me to do. I'm not a member of any church right now, but do still identify as a Christian (and will no doubt join a suitable church as my son gets older). Helping a community of people who want to do good in the world create the facility from which they will do this work and where they will come together to collectively reinforce their beliefs is a high calling for an architect. Good luck with it, but please think on/pray on what the right path to getting the job done correctly for everyone will be.
yeah.
i have to agree when i first read your post i kind of wondered what was going on with your office. is the project too small for them to be interested? the method LB outlines above sounds the best way to deal with both funding and scheduling and makes it possible to start out with some idea of what to expect and where things are going. not having that kind of timeline may be fine if you think god is in charge, but it will make the entire experience more comfortable and positive if you all know what is going to happen and when (and WHY!) from the beginning. your office should help you with that. otherwise there are bound to be mistakes and redoes and things like that which will just not be any fun for anyone.
you may end up feeling more like job if you keep going that way...
is that you john?
Sorry, it never occured to me that you wouldn't know the firm issues. Duh.
The Firm I work for is a niche firm that does Funeral Homes, Mausoleums, and Cemeteries. Occasionally, we do a house for a good funeral client, but not too often. This is the main reason they want to wait. Second, they say we are busy, and Dang kid, I'll explain later.
1) what lb said.
2) what lb said.
3) graphic standards (like lb said).
4) precedent research (like holz said).
5) code tells you how much square footage you need to assume for sitting people, standing people, dining people, etc - as a minimum, not what you actually might need.
6) $1.5m won't take you very far.
in the current climate, i'm guessing you'll build max 10,000sf if you use wood frame house-like construction.
maybe about the same if you follow the model of a lot of rural/startup churches and use a prefab metal building as a starting place.
if you're thinking masonry or if you're hoping to do anything unusual with the construction (form, method, finish, whatever), you're looking at more like 6,000sf, i.e., about the size of ONLY a sanctuary for 300 people.
special construction where you get to invent details and really control decisions about how something will get built changes the rules even further. as an example, i'm working on a project now in which we'll renovate an existing 1400sf chapel (single space) and build a 1500sf support building (restrooms, etc) for about $1.5m.
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first order of business is to get their wish list. treat it like a brainstorming exercise. glean from them everything they think they might want. don't say no; don't let them say no until it's all out there on the table. then prioritize the wish list: what's absolutely necessary, what's just wishes and dreams. you can take this away and begin to determine where there might be overlaps: where is a 'dream' that can be accommodated in a 'need' space, etc.
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then, and only then, AFTER you know their wishes, you'll need to talk to them about budget. let them know that current institutional construction (and this is in ky; tx may be worse) can be as much as $225/sf.
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separate from what lb said, in addition to your firm's involvement, you're going to need the involvement of a civil engineer to help you understand potential site use. where are you gonna park 150-200 cars? how are you going to manage stormwater - especially if you need it to go where you thought you were parking cars? do you have a topo? where do you put a pool? is it obvious where power, water, sewer are coming from? is there sewer, or will you have to accommodate septic/lateral fields? etc...
Ok, where was I, oh yeah, our firm is busy, and apparently, understaffed. Also, they are a high-end firm, and charge a pretty penny for their expertise, a pretty penny the Church doesnt have.
What I have suggested to the Firm is that they allow me to head the project, and do it at a low-rate. The Church doesn't want me to do this for free, however, I am willing to DONATE my time, and charge for reimbersables - it is a tax write off.
And just let me say WOW. This architecture stuff is tough. The only questions I have answers to are Yes, they will need a septic system (and they've already asked me about it, aerobic, ect ??? and I just told them the Engineer would have to do that), and they DONT want a metal building - I asked. They don't need me if thats what they want, and I told them that. There would be better people to do that job.
Looks like my lunch break will be busy. Too bad the comitte hasn't emailed me back about program issues.
One of the major masterplanning projects I did - for St. David's Episcopal in downtown Austin, TX - we created a questionnaire for the entire congregation. Separate questionnaires were made for various committees/groups - Music, Clergy, Childcare, Vesting, Youth Group. We asked them what issues they had with their existing facilities (not so much an issue for you, unless they want to critique their borrowed spaces) and some specific questions about what they wanted in their new facilities. For square footage assessments, we asked them to do comparisons: should the main vesting room be the size of a typical bedroom, a typical master bedroom, or bigger?
This may be getting too specific, but it is a great way to get a lot of information AND to make everyone feel like they are involved.
Sarah ... recognizing this may be controversial and contrary to what you might prefer, have you asked your building committee these two questions: a) are you really in a position to build at this time? and b) does it really make sense to build this facility out in the middle of NoWhere?
Sometimes building "something" before you have the money required to build "what you need / what you want" is a really bad bet. The facility may never function the way they need it to function, and maintenance and remodel costs over time may be excessive, compared to waiting a few more years.
Sometimes it's our job to make sure our clients have thought through their building program. It's not uncommon to steer a client to a renovation opportunity or suggest they wait until costs or market conditions improve. Perhaps you can be more valuable to them by not designing this new facility. Helping them develop an appropriate long-range facility strategy may be in both your best interests and theirs.
Good luck.
Great advice, quizzical.
I'm realizing more and more that what architects do is only party design. We're actually often hired as strategic planners, helping our clients make decisions about the future of their organizations (whether the clients realize it or not.)
Think about the church not just as a building designer, bu as a strategic planner. They'll thank you for it.
I have been thinking of future expansion. The may possibly have 80 acres somewhere near in the future, and have considered that the building I'm to design now may become simply administration. I am thinking more compound than single building, though with only 2.5 acres, theres not much compounding to be had. The strategic planner idea is a good one to keep in mind, though.
They bought the particular site because God said to. All logic says its a terrible place, but God works in mysterious ways, so I'm not going to question it.
I have the feeling that after preliminary design, they will simply wait on God, and wont build until the money is there. Thats the kind of people they are.
I guess I should give them a week to email back, huh. I let them know I couldn't do much until then.
I know very little about the details of this project, but just as a precedent idea is a church done by the Rural Studio that was published in the book of a few years ago about the Studio after Mockbee's death. It has a small, but very nice pool done for baptisms, is a much smaller congregation I think, and probably a more generous budget despite the inherent poverty of the users, but I think it's worth looking at.
Not sure if this is much help but my husband's "home church" built a church a few years ago with a non-profit group. The church paid for materials and such and this group came out and built it for free (I believe). I am most certain that they did not spend much on it. It is in the middle of nowhere Georgia also. I am not sure if you or the church is familiar with this group but it would be worth looking into. I will get some for info for you if you want.
I second the rural studio chapel.
Sarah...funny my first project outside of grad school was to sit on a committee for the restoration for one of the oldes cathedrals (RC) in the western hemisphere. Copper domed roof, 5' thick concrete and stone walls, inner city, you name it. Initially they were so excited and wanted to get it started right away. Luckily my youth was sided with an experienced Architect and a Quanitity Surveyor who was oddly enough Jewish. Much of the desires from the parish ran counter to the historic committees and it was a mess. In the end/beginning the best decision after about a year fighting was to advise them that this wasn't a project for now, rather to line up the ducks for later. Nearly 10 years later they have started the first phase of the project which is the restoration of the original murals painted by Spanish Monks.
I say this because it is sometimes better to advise them to wait, but keep an open mind. And as others have said in support of faith, to pray on it.
Btw for most denominations there are publications that document basic religious structures, and I do remember seeing one on ecumenical design.
Best of luck, and if you need an expert...I'm sure you can find a few on archinect
Further put all correspondence to your firm/church in writing.
king, my parent's church used a group called Mission Builders - retired carpenters who build for room and board, basically. The congregation took turns bringing them lunches every day!
interesting thread...
sarah - take what lb and a few others are saying very seriously in this sense: if you don't know how to really approach this project and do it well, get some help. even if it's not your current firm - find a non-profit community design center or someone. not just because you are unlicensed (which has it's own attendant issues - just one to think about: what happens if a parishioner or even a visitor does the proverbial slip and fall? or if you miss an ada requirement? are you prepared to deal with a potential lawsuit on the back end? do you even know if you'd qualify for insurance? (the answer is no)) but because you - YOU - have an ethical obligation to your client to make sure you don't mislead them, even if with the best of intentions.
all of that is not to say you should just totally walk away from the opportunity, but that you seriously need to take some stock of what it is that you can truly offer on your own. honestly, from your own descriptions, i'm a little dubious at best. even if i give your 'design' and analytical skills all due credit, there is a whole range of attendant 'design' issues it doesn't sound like you're even aware exist.
in reading through your firm issues, it sounds like they may simply not want to stray outside of their 'comfort' zone. okay, whatever. that's their issue. like i mentioned above - find some help. contact the 1% solution - see if they can help pair you up with another firm in the area to do it. go to a cdc; heck, even just see if you can find someone through the local aia.
this isn't a school assignment, where your decisions are largely context free. even in programming and sd, as it's been pointed out, you're going to really set the hard parameters everyone is working off of from then on. if you don't have a good grasp on why certain construction assemblies cost more than others, for example, how are you going to begin to make an informed recommendation from which to generate a solid cost estimate?
i'm sorry to sound like the frumpy prick from the west, but i take the 'professional' aspect of our profession very seriously. you absolutely can learn a lot through this experience but from everything i've read, there is a lot to be gained - for you, for the congregation, etc - from bringing someone else more qualified in to really lead the process and teach you along the way....
Sorry but a novice designer teamed with an inexperienced client group, who have no sense of what they need to build, what they want to build and how much they can build just sounds like a train wreck waiting to happen.
I would still move through the process because its important to work through the process with jobs that may not go anywhere so you understand, when a project has "some legs" vs dreamers who don't have a clue.
Lastly don't fall in love with the project, certainly have a passion for the work but be realistic with the clients and their goals, and be prepared to walk away.
There isn't a single project that I don't love so much that I would walk away from .... don't forget its a business! and an understanding of good business decisions is part of that process.
I don't feel as pessimistic/fatalistic as whistler. You have an opportunity to pace slowly through each step together with the client, easily forgiving each other for any occasional slight misstep.
Short of calling this an apt pairing, if you're cerebral and intensive enough, this could be an immensely rich experience for you.
Be as communicative as possible and lean heavily on willing experts. But this last piece of advice isn't specific to only this stage of your career.
I'm not fatalistic just a little more hardened. At this point in my career I look for projects which I would be happy to show off and are interesting, picking up jobs for cash flow is not as critical as it once was. That being said I needed to learn the basics that they don't each you in school and thats learning to land a job. So even if the project is a go or not going through the process of landing a client and getting a contract is a huge step in any young architects career. Even today the ability to land a client and "close the deal" is still fun and exciting.
I am not saying don't do it but have in the back of your mind " holly shit, I should run away fast before I 'm associated with this project". Some of the best advice you might give someone is to avoid the project altogether. Doing a project just for the "doing it" isn't really in anyone's best interest particularly if its of no value to the client, community, site or nobody can afford it.
Then I think we're mostly in agreement. I've been in Sarah's place before, young with no solo experience but enough drafting and construction administration work to feel like I could give it a serious go when an old friend came along with an idea.
Though I certainly was concerned that a major misstep would mar any reputation I wanted to forge in a small town and betray my client's good faith in me, I poured my heart into each task, asked the right questions, and always conducted myself as if I had a boss looking over my shoulder. In the end, the project worked out more splendidly than I originally imagined and to this day the client and I are both really happy with the fruits of our fledgling effort.
Needless to day, the experience was immeasurably valuable in gaining business experience. Sarah, you're the best judge of this project's potential success.
The AIA has a new white paper out on pro bono work -- might be of interest in how to make this work within the context of the firm (if you can get past the bureaucratic-ness):
http://www.aia.org/SiteObjects/files/AIA_ProBono_Guidelines_Draft.pdf
So does everybody think I should draft up some form of paperwork stating that I am in NO WAY performing Architectural Services, and that all work is preliminary/not for construction, ect?
Not necessarily if the client will eventually hire a registered architect to take ownership of your drawings.
Just make sure they understand your role as "design consultant."
sarah -
yes. yes, and yes. 'understanding' your role is only limited to that group, not to anyone else who may ever use the building.
Construction documents stamped by a registered architect don't necessarily need to even list Sarah's name on them though, obviating any legal liability.
So, waterhouse, how do you balance erasing yourself for liabilty purposes, and keeping yourself named for credit purposes? Best case, this turns out to be a masterpiece (hey, I said best case), how would I keep credit for the design?
I would say it's best for your client to hire an architect that either they or you have some working experience with or some kind of past history. Have a few meetings in the early stages to allow the client to communicate that you are the design consultant. As the whole thing starts to move forward, I would say demonstrate your desire to be quarterback by setting a deadline for the architect to receive your CAD files. If you're coordinating things successfully between the client and their architect, they will both take you seriously.
As for credit, if you're thinking of applying for awards after completion I believe you can be listed as "design architect" alongside the registered "architect of record." Someone else may want to chime in on that one. For other types of credit - while I'm getting ahead of myself - it's hard to foresee an architect of record objecting to you including this work in your portfolio?
Were you thinking of something else?
Sarah,
I am in about the same boat as you. I have a -potentially- big project with a Church, the priest is an old friend. Similarly, they have a loose program, no idea how much it will cost or how much time it will take. I started things off with a coffee shop presentation to the priest last week, just going over basic ideas - very abstract.
Now he wants me to put together a proposal, basically a fee proposal, which I'm real fuzzy about. I asked a principal at my last firm and he gave me some basic guidelines - figure out how many drawings you'll need, expect to work 40 hours for each drawing, multiply times your hourly fee. The total of all those hours should be your maximum bill. Since churches can give people tax certificates instead of money (like when you donate a car), I may do a combo of cash/tax rebate.
I was looking at this book at a bookstore this weekend, it looks like a great overall guideline for church design:
Building Type Basics for Places of Worship
This website also has some helpful tips for figuring out sizes based on capacity Church Building 101
I'm also not licensed, although I'm more than halfway through and actively taking exams. I don't know what to call myself, design consultant? I made it clear that I'm not licensed yet. I'm unemployed but just got an offer at a self-proclaimed 'relaxed' office that pays pretty well. It might just be the perfect combination to do the work and not starve.
This is my new favorite post. Looking forward to hearing some wisdom.....Hope to share whatever I learn about the process along the way (assuming the Church board doesn't balk)....
I recieved an email this weekend from the Church building commitee. I had asked them previously to send me a topo survey so that I could design the building. I told them that they would need one whether they went with my design, or a concrete pad, just for dirt-work estimation. They responded - after a couple of weeks - saying they feel, in their 'layman's thinking' (their words, not mine) that sending a topo survey would be in error because the site would be graded anyway. It seems that they believe the topo would have to be redone after the grading to get them right. I was hoping I could use one of the ravines that is on the site, to locate an under-building outdoor prayer chapel.
The reason for this email is to tell you that we will not be mailing a topographical survery of the site at this time. In our layman's thinking this would be fruitless since the property will be graded and there the survey would be in error. If our thinking in this direction is erroneous, please let us know.Are there other reasons that they should go ahead with the topo survey? For some reason, I don't feel my 'prayer chapel' qualifies as a good enough reason to have them spend the money for topo.
Here is the email.
Sarah ... while this may be lost on your client(s) ... a topo certainly describes existing conditions, but it also provides the information that you need a) to design the project so that a minimum of site work is required, and b) to direct the contractor about the sitework that he'll be hired to undertake.
You cannot design efficiently without an existing conditions topo. The civil drawings cannot be designed without an existing conditions topo. The sitework contractor can't do his work without knowledge of what conditions exist when he mobilizes on site -- a visual survey isn't enough.
This is such a very basic requirement of every project, I recommend that you SERIOUSLY avoid moving forward on this project in a design role if they're not willing to provide you with this fundamental information. You're already in a somewhat precarious liability situation -- IMHO, not having this information makes your situation even worse. Your client(s) are being frugal in an inappropriate, misguided way.
Good luck.
sarah-
I missed this thread the first round. there is a third path worthy of exploring. JOINT THE BUILDING COMMITTEE.
You will be in a better professional spot to be the client/project manager for the congregation then being the designer.
I 2nd on the responses about the topo - also you need a boundary survey before proceeding. They should have gotten this when they purchased the plot - if not, then they MUST have this before any further work.
TK, they do have a boundary survey. They sent that to me. Its pretty sparce.
And, I can't join the building commitee as I am no longer a member of the Church, I don't live in the town, and I wasn't asked. I did offer to be a liazon between them and an Architect if they wanted.
I hate to say this, and I mean no disrespect, but this has disaster written all over it. Your church needs an architect with previous church experience (which rules out your current firm, I think), and they definitely need somebody on the front end of this thing that can seriously guide them right out of the box on planning, programming AND, most important, a realistic idea of budget BEFORE any design work is done. To start doing any design sketches before any of the other preliminary steps are taken is simply unprofessional and will not serve the client (your church) well at all. I would suggest that in this case, your best value to your church may be as liaison with a different firm...a firm that you might help research for them. Although you would not get credit for bringing a job to your current firm (it sounds to me like they are not all that interested anyway), you would most likely get huge credit from your church for helping guide them in the right direction. Maybe you should volunteer to be on the building committee. Although you are not currently an "expert" in church design, I think you would gain extremely valuable experience by serving on the building committee and working closely with a qualified professional architect (qualified and experienced in religious architecture). Ultimately, I think both you and your church would find far greater benefit in this type of arrangement.
I know you want to "design," but by your own admission you are not qualified to do this...yet.
Ledoux's .... I'm glad that someone else can see through the fluff and see a disaster in the making. Perhaps it'll make a good reality TV show.
Do you think some of this is an overraction? Churches don't build often, once a generation if they're lucky, and the board is made up of volunteers. That's true of any church. So they're not going to understand basic stuff like needing a survey, unless they have a professional or two on the board.
I don't think seeing that (awful) email means quitting time, but its definitely a revelation as to how much hand holding this client will need. They DID say "if our thinking is erroneous please let us know". So they're just guessing, and they need to be educated. It sounds ridiculous to us, but to them, they have no idea why an existing conditions drawing is needed. Once you give them a simple explanation, and you ask to make sure they understand, the issue should be over - they will learn something, and trust you more as the professional resource that you are.
Well, here is an update.
They met with the surveyor, and he confused them with talk of levels, ect, and asked to speak to me. Once I got in touch with him, I requested a proposal for 2' contours and 3" trees. He came back with 1800$ and I sent his bid on to the Comittee. They got back to me saying they would like to get quotes from other surveyors - he was hard to get ahold of - (they are to get me names and contact info) and, that since the Hurricane blew through, and trees were down on the site, would like to wait until after they had a chance to clean it up, and remove the trees that were damaged.
This all seems reasonable to me, and so I am on hold. I told them that once they cleaned up the site and gave me contact info, I would request proposals, and then send them on to the Commitee. Basically, I am planning to act as go-between.
Since they are cleaning the site themselves, it will be a while.
I feel like a missed some posts in here. Agree completely about the sit survey.
In my ten years doing church work, a condition of our contract was always that the church get a professional site survey done - on their own dime, a totally separate contract from ours - before we would do any work beyond programming questionnaires.
Any architect they hire, you or someone else, will most likely require this, for all the reasons quizzical lists above.
So now you have some time - while they are cleaning up - to research some additional surveyors, though I'd guess $1800 is appropriate. Can you ask other architects who do church work who they have used?
No, LB. Its a small small town, and Dallas is 2.5 - 3 hours away. But I did ask my mentor if 1800 sounded good. He said it seemed fair. This will certainly come to light when other survey quotes come in.
wow good luck sarah, i missed this thread at the start but if you could keep this thing going through the process, id imagine this could really turn into an incredibly valuable tool for us younger 'nectors
good luck....
my first gig was a small design/build for a deli.....
i would make sure to get a retainer too....... churches can be sneaky....
I went to the library to research the codes for this project, and lets just say ..... They should teach a class in effectively understanding the IBC.
Here are some things I know, and also, some questions. I am sure there are more things I need to know that I don't even know I need to know. Hows that for lost.
The building is A-3, its under IBC 2003 with no county codes to ad, just the Texas ADA stuff.
Type V construction sounded like typical wood stud framing - is this true? I found that with sprinklers I can have 2 stories, and 11,500 sqft, and without, 1 story - 6,000 sqft. Does a story constitute floors, or is it based on height? Can I have a two story space, and it still be one story?
Are metal studs a type I construction? The building can be unlimited sqft then, it seems.
When determining area/occupant load, do I need to consider each room seperatly; i.e. the reception hall, class rooms, sanctuary?
How do I determine how much parking is required?
What am I missing?
Sarah,
What is the size of your building?
This will be important in determining type of Construction.
How large of a site do you have this will be important in determining the type of Construction.
Think of WACO.....type V B construction. Burn Baby Burn.
Most Likely the Sanctuary is going to be the largest Occupany Load.
Fixed seating I would assume.
Parking count is controled by Local Zoning Codes. and ADA Codes....as ammended by the State of Texas I would assume. Sometimes the state screws around with the size of the space, so be sure to check that as well.
Sarah,
You might want to take this back to the office where you were working and try to strike a deal with them and the church. Maybe
under the guidance of someone in the office you can learn alot
and provide the Church a grand project. Sometimes offices
would see this as a pro-bono project. They also see it as an
opportunity to toss young ones into the water....and well let them
swim, long as they have a life vest on. They might do alot of
splashing around but their certain not to drown, as long as it is a
certified life jacket you be wearing. Other wise you might be
swimming up stream for a long time trying to put this thing together.
maybe this is a project you can take to an office and work on as a volunteer, like you were talking about in other thread...i couldn't offer any advice about how to approach a firm so that everyone would be happy, but as your old firm has no experience with such projects i am guessing they are not the right match to start with. still, if this project does go ahead it may be a good way to get yourself into a better job...
just a thought.
Hi Sarah,
These are pretty fundamental things, so here's some more help to get you get started. You'll definitely need to partner with someone so you don't get in trouble! Also go get the Ching "Building Codes Illustrated". That's a good resource. Also note that in the front of the IBC there is a standard methodology for building "design" (the life safety part) that you can follow. I don't know anything about Texas, so I'm going just based on the unamended IBC.
Q: Type V construction sounded like typical wood stud framing - is this true? I found that with sprinklers I can have 2 stories, and 11,500 sqft, and without, 1 story - 6,000 sqft. Does a story constitute floors, or is it based on height? Can I have a two story space, and it still be one story?
A: Type V is typically ordinary wood platforming framing like you would see in Single Family Residential, although since it is the least restrictive construction type it could in fact be anything.
A: A story is a habitable level (which in the building code is any floor that isn't otherwise characterized as a mezzanine). The actual height of the space doesn't matter, at least as much as it pertains to the heights that you are talking about. So yeah, you can have a 24' high single story building, no problem. On stuff like this, check out the definitions in the front of the chapter in question - the terminology that they use is definitive and allows you to forget any other meanings particular terms might have outside of that particular code book.
Q: Are metal studs a type I construction? The building can be unlimited sqft then, it seems.
A: Type I construction has structural members that are composed of non-combustible framing, typically of either fire-rated steel or concrete. The interior partitions are typically light gauge metal framing. As Snook mentioned, construction type is usually where the program required area can fit into the cheapest (highest) construction type allowed under the code. So if you are only talking about 10-15K SF, Type I would be overkill. Most likely you will be looking at Type III or Type V. Some buildings are permitted to have unlimited areas if they are III or better and have 60' yards around them. Think of your local Target.
Q: When determining area/occupant load, do I need to consider each room seperatly; i.e. the reception hall, class rooms, sanctuary?
A: Occupant load in this case needs to be calculated based on the use and area of each room. The table is in Chapter 10 of the IBC.
Q: How do I determine how much parking is required?
A: As snook sez, this is usually dicated by the city, township or county zoning/development/land use code (whatever they care to call it). This should tell you the number of square feet of building area of a particular use per required parking space as well as the sizes and drive aisle widths. I've never worked in a jurisdication where the state mandated the size, but one never knows. Once you know the required number of spaces, the normal thing to do is apply the ADA/local Accessibility code to find out how many of those spaces need to be disabled accessible. It's typically 2%, but can vary for particular uses such as doctor's offices where the bureaucrats foresee a need for more accessible spaces.
Thanks, guys. Seems I have some calls to make. The clients didnt give me a square footage, so I'm wonder if I can figure it out backwards, you know, by saying "we want a space for 600 people, so I need X number of sqft."
I tried calling the county about the codes, ect, but they didnt understand my question. Maybe if I call and can get the plan reviewer on the phone I can get more information. What happens if there are no codes to follow in the county?
Those would be Zoning Codes you be asking about Sarah? Check to see is there is a Planning office on the County Level. I kind of think there must be something in place. Then again a few years ago I heard there was no Zoning in Houston, so go figure. Then again maybe that is urban legend. If there is no regulation for parking then you should use numbers that make since for parking. Usually it is based upon the size of the assembly hall. One parking space for every 4 seats in the assembly area is a good place to start. Do remember in laying out the site, you have to consider drainage and where all the run off water is going. This might envolve a Civil Engineer, as people tend to get nasty when water run off has been changed up stream of them and they find their property flooded. Sometimes the water has to be retained on site and allowed to flow off site at a slower pace. Basicly your building a temporary water basin with an outlet sized to allow for a slower rate of water movement off the site over a longer period of time.
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