Yes, golden arches were a major sign of the triumph of God in the early Christian Church architecture of Helena and Eutropia. And yes, we all know how golden arches inverted back to signs of pagan Gods.
Bill Hicks has a great skit on the idea that the last thing jesus would want to see if he actually did return was a cross...and most churches have crosses on their signage and most christians wear a cross around their neck...would he not run in horror?
a catholic priest once told me that the cross they wear is actually an obscenity. He would run in horror
Jul 13, 05 8:53 pm ·
·
Jesus did not run from a cross before his Crucifixion, and he certainly has no reason to run from a cross now. He prayed in the garden that the cross might not happen, but he didn't run away from it.
Is a Bill Hicks skit a sign of God? It is certainly clear that not all Catholic priests are a sign of God.
Rita: upon reflection I did not agree with that priest. It seems that for me in my life I have to embrace humiliation, rejection, failure and defeat to feel near to God. that's just a law of life in MY universe (not to impose this tragic view of life upon anyone else) Failure is a sign that God is very near, I think...
Jul 14, 05 9:22 am ·
·
God is very far away (as far as I'm concerned). For example, ever since David Letterman began to appear on TV late at night, God began to dress like David Letterman on late night TV. Those close to God were the only ones to notice the coincidence, but, since gossip travels fast and far, it was soon that most souls became aware of God dressing like David Letterman everynight, thus, if most souls watch David Letterman, it is to see what God is wearing that day.
Rita, take a hot shower and go rent some Bill Hicks DVD's...it will be good for you.
And a Bill Hicks skit is merely proof that he was one of the funniest comedians ever to come out of the US.
Jul 14, 05 10:09 am ·
·
Been there, done that, there are other things better for me. Hey, are there any Phyllis Diller DVDs out there? And yes, I haven't taken a shower yet this morning.
how wd all those poor Roman Catholics make "the sign of the noose", or "the sign of the hypodermic"?
Jul 17, 05 1:52 pm ·
·
The wounds of Christ's crucifixion are significant in their corporal extreme-ness -- the nailed hands and feet, the crown of thrones, and ultimately a stab directed at the heart. Note how Christ's first wound, the circumcision, occurs also at an extreme point. Like the alpha and the omega, Christ is all about extremes.
When it comes to signs of God, nooses and gurneys are nothing but empty signifiers.
Ah but the wounds and the cross are two different things (cause and effect). Depictions of stigmata and bleeding hearts and thorny crowns (and their accompanying blood) show pain, but the primary symbol of the suffering was the instrument of execution. Protestant faiths abstracted this and removed the corporeal body (a disdain for the borderline icon worship), showing only the cross (imagine the shock of seeing christ on the cross in Ando's church, or in an Aalto.) Doesn't this create an empty signifier? (I actually believe there is no such thing).
The catholic faith took it a step further in the other direction and the saints are typicaly depicted with their instrument of martyrdom (St. Barbara and her grill, Sebastian full of arrows.) St Peter's Square is a veritable pantheon of capital punishment.
Being as such, I do not see why a noose or a bullet or a needle (especially with its similar body-puncturing imagery) would be any less different than a cross.
Of course, there is the blood aspect, complete with it's cannibalistic transubstantiation component. "Body of Christ, bread of heaven"
Jul 17, 05 2:41 pm ·
·
Yes, the wounds of Christ and the cross are different signs of God.
Yes, the wounds of Christ are signs of pain, specifically Christ's pain, and the position of Christ's pain are at extreme points.
I'd love to see Christ on the Cross in an Ando or Aalto church.
[If you don't believe in empty signifiers, then why do you suggest a Cross without Christ on it as an empty signifier? Isn't this a sign of contradiction? Personally, I do believe empty signifiers exist. I now wonder if overt self-contradiction is just such a thing.)
What God(s) are a noose, bullet or needle signs of?
The cross actually didn't show up in the Christian religion until the whole notion of mysticism was started with a separation of the clergy and the layman. It was a way for the church to make its worshippers to feel guilty. It is understood that the first century church actually focused more on the resurrection rather than the cruxifiction - thus the cross was not a common sign within their worship culture.
A priest that had resently left the priesthood for the catholic church once told me:
"Religion is like software- for humans"
I could not agree more.
Jul 17, 05 3:19 pm ·
·
The sign of the cross was sometimes used by first - third century Christians to denote the dead presence of a Christian within some of the catacombs of Rome.
The Holy Cross was certainly a Christian sign when Helena found it 14 September 325.
the empty cross is a cross from which Christ has been removed, entombed then risen from the dead. As much as the protestants deny the resurrection, this is what their empty cross may signify, if you are imaginative enough...
the captives who suffer by noose or hypodermic are sharing in the death of christ and hence will participate in his resurrection, too. their wounds and objects of torture point to Jesus's.
Jul 17, 05 3:56 pm ·
·
Yes, there are signs that point to signs of God, but those signs are not necessarily signs of God themselves.
the picture of Costantine's Column (Cemberlitas) in istanbul, a column erected in 330AD to inaugurate the new Byzantine capital, constantinople. It's made of porphyry brought from Heliopolis, Egypt. it supported the statue of the emperor. And.., it is said to have the holly cross buried underneat.
Jul 17, 05 4:12 pm ·
·
abra, wasn't there also originally a similar column that supported a statue of Helena?
Constantinople was dedicated as the new Christian capital of the Roman Empire, not a new Byzantine capital.
As to the appearance of the cross in first - third century Roman catacombs, they specifically signified the dead presence of Christian martyrs.
Jul 17, 05 4:20 pm ·
·
Only part of the Holy Cross went to Constantinople. Most of it stayed at Jerusalem, specifically at the Church of the Holy Sepulcher, and part of it went to Rome and is still within the Helena chapel at Santa Croce in Gerusalemme, and is half of the titilus, the sign on the Cross.
said area (cemberlitas) was used as a necrepolis with colums lining up to street. last 50 years there has been many tombs found in the area between 8 to 10 meters deep.so it is very possible helena's obelisk stood there among other royalty.
the cross under constantine's is most likely a marytr gold. but i tell you, each time i am near cemberlitas, even the idea of the holy cross buried there, gives me goose bumps.
also,
'Her greatest fame, Helena acquired by an act for which she was probably not responsible, i.e. the finding of the True Cross. Her presence in Jerusalem and the description Eusebius presented of her stay in the Holy Land led ultimately to connecting Helena with the discovery of the Cross.'
the question remains;
was helena buried in rome or konstantinepoli?
mjh00c: sorry about that. I think that there are very liberal anglicans in UK and possibly episcopalians in the USA who deny (or who question) the resurrection. Correct me if I'm wrong. When I was a student in UK 25 years ago very liberal Oxbridge theologians were doubting the resurrection as well as the incarnation.
Jul 17, 05 5:11 pm ·
·
Helena was buried at Rome a day of two before 3 August 326, subsequent to her death 25 July 326, probably at Naples.
I have spent a good deal of time over the last six years gathering multitudinous data relative to the life of Helena, so single quotations mean very little to me. There are a lot of contradictions within modern Helena scholarship, and it has been exactly the contradictions that I have striven to understand and hopefully ultimately resolve.
One major aspect of the Helena's legend which has eluded modern scholarship is that a law of silence regarding Helena and the Cross was in force when Eusebius wrote of Helena in the Holy Land within his Life of Constantine (337). Ambrose, bishop of Milan, broke the silence regarding Helena and the Cross in his Obit Theodosi, the Obituary of Emperor Theodosius (395). The law of silence regarding Helena and the Cross was suggested immediately after the death of Helena to Constantine by Eutropia, and the reason for this law was so that overall power would stay within the Imperial ranks, rather than go to the Christian priesthood which then had a new sign, the True Cross, to confirm its power.
i like with the orient express twists. possibilities are endless. i wouldn't be surprised that the piece of the cross was ended up in istanbul. helena with the goods, coming from jerusalem to rome via istanbul.cooling off, rejuvaneting, new robes from the finest dressmakers and beauty slaves, the jewels, golden horn nights with vines from troy.
- eat your heart out vatican, you got nothing to show for. emperor gets it all.
rita direct me to the saintess.
* i guess goose bumps weren't for nothing..
Jul 17, 05 5:54 pm ·
·
18 September 324 - Constantine defeats Licinius at Chrysopolis and in turn becomes sole ruler of the Roman Empire.
8 November 324 - Constantine founds Constantinople
25 July 325 -- the Nicene Creed and conclusion of the Nicene Council, over which Constantine precided. 25 July 325 also marked the beginning of Constantine's 20th year as a Roman Augustus. It is fairly certain that Helena also attended the Nicene Council.
14 September 325 - Helena finds the Holy Cross at Jerusalem.
25 July 326 - the closing ceremonies of Constantine's 20th jubilee year at Rome. The death of Helena and the suicide of Fausta, Constantine's second wife (at Naples and Rome respectively).
3 August 325 - Constantine leaves Rome and never returns.
11 May 330 - dedication of Constantinople.
22 May 336 - death of Constantine at Nicomedia.
During Constantine's 20th jubilee year, his movements throughout the Empire were a gradual moving toward Rome over land--Greece, the Balkens, northern Italy. During the same period, Helena likely moved toward Rome via north Africa, ultimately crossing to Italy from Carthage.
Jul 17, 05 6:24 pm ·
·
3 August 326 - Constantine leaves Rome and never returns.
this is a little off subject.
i was in brea the other day for work and saw a marquee in front of church...
"Your extremities are God's opportunities."
My PM and I bonded that day.
Jul 17, 05 7:07 pm ·
·
The emperor Alexander Severus at one point wished to include Jesus Christ among the pantheon of Roman gods, however, Alexander was advised against the Christian inclusion because of the quick realization that almost everyone in Rome would then openly become a Christian, and subsequently completely undermine Rome’s pagan priesthood and aristocratic powerbase. Evidently, by the first half of the third century, Christianity was already Rome’s predominant faith, and given that Alexander’s wish occurred close to a hundred years prior to the emperor Constantine’s allowance and erection of Christian tombs and basilicas within Rome, the noneventuality of Alexander’s desire is nonetheless a pivotal point that signals the beginning of paganism’s end. It is thus not for nothing that Piranesi, rather than position the Porticus Alexandri Severi correctly at the beginning of the Equiria, chooses to place Alexander’s porticus at the Equiria’s end.
--excerpt from Encyclopedia Ichnographica, 1998.12.01
Jul 19, 05 1:14 pm ·
·
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The Semiology of God
I believe in signs of God.
infinity
Hey, nice sign of God!!!
John the Baptist Piranesi is thrilled about Reenactment Season 2005 starting tomorrow, 14 July, and ending 29 September.
golden arches
Yes, golden arches were a major sign of the triumph of God in the early Christian Church architecture of Helena and Eutropia. And yes, we all know how golden arches inverted back to signs of pagan Gods.
Bill Hicks has a great skit on the idea that the last thing jesus would want to see if he actually did return was a cross...and most churches have crosses on their signage and most christians wear a cross around their neck...would he not run in horror?
I miss Bill Hicks.
a catholic priest once told me that the cross they wear is actually an obscenity. He would run in horror
Jesus did not run from a cross before his Crucifixion, and he certainly has no reason to run from a cross now. He prayed in the garden that the cross might not happen, but he didn't run away from it.
Is a Bill Hicks skit a sign of God? It is certainly clear that not all Catholic priests are a sign of God.
Rita: upon reflection I did not agree with that priest. It seems that for me in my life I have to embrace humiliation, rejection, failure and defeat to feel near to God. that's just a law of life in MY universe (not to impose this tragic view of life upon anyone else) Failure is a sign that God is very near, I think...
God is very far away (as far as I'm concerned). For example, ever since David Letterman began to appear on TV late at night, God began to dress like David Letterman on late night TV. Those close to God were the only ones to notice the coincidence, but, since gossip travels fast and far, it was soon that most souls became aware of God dressing like David Letterman everynight, thus, if most souls watch David Letterman, it is to see what God is wearing that day.
I prefer Leno...so what's that mean?
It means the way Leno dresses is not a sign of God's dress, that's all.
Rita, take a hot shower and go rent some Bill Hicks DVD's...it will be good for you.
And a Bill Hicks skit is merely proof that he was one of the funniest comedians ever to come out of the US.
Been there, done that, there are other things better for me. Hey, are there any Phyllis Diller DVDs out there? And yes, I haven't taken a shower yet this morning.
Rita: all joking aside, I still feel that the moment of Man's distress is the moment of God's omnipresence.
I wasn't joking about God being far away for me. I might be sometimes close to signs of God, but actually close to God, I don't think so.
We all have different experiences of God and I respect yours profoundly...
I just wonder if JC had been hung instead of crucified, would people be wearing little nooses around their necks?
how would we produce a symbol if he had died by lethal injection?? a little gurney?
how wd all those poor Roman Catholics make "the sign of the noose", or "the sign of the hypodermic"?
The wounds of Christ's crucifixion are significant in their corporal extreme-ness -- the nailed hands and feet, the crown of thrones, and ultimately a stab directed at the heart. Note how Christ's first wound, the circumcision, occurs also at an extreme point. Like the alpha and the omega, Christ is all about extremes.
When it comes to signs of God, nooses and gurneys are nothing but empty signifiers.
Ah but the wounds and the cross are two different things (cause and effect). Depictions of stigmata and bleeding hearts and thorny crowns (and their accompanying blood) show pain, but the primary symbol of the suffering was the instrument of execution. Protestant faiths abstracted this and removed the corporeal body (a disdain for the borderline icon worship), showing only the cross (imagine the shock of seeing christ on the cross in Ando's church, or in an Aalto.) Doesn't this create an empty signifier? (I actually believe there is no such thing).
The catholic faith took it a step further in the other direction and the saints are typicaly depicted with their instrument of martyrdom (St. Barbara and her grill, Sebastian full of arrows.) St Peter's Square is a veritable pantheon of capital punishment.
Being as such, I do not see why a noose or a bullet or a needle (especially with its similar body-puncturing imagery) would be any less different than a cross.
Of course, there is the blood aspect, complete with it's cannibalistic transubstantiation component. "Body of Christ, bread of heaven"
Yes, the wounds of Christ and the cross are different signs of God.
Yes, the wounds of Christ are signs of pain, specifically Christ's pain, and the position of Christ's pain are at extreme points.
I'd love to see Christ on the Cross in an Ando or Aalto church.
[If you don't believe in empty signifiers, then why do you suggest a Cross without Christ on it as an empty signifier? Isn't this a sign of contradiction? Personally, I do believe empty signifiers exist. I now wonder if overt self-contradiction is just such a thing.)
What God(s) are a noose, bullet or needle signs of?
The cross actually didn't show up in the Christian religion until the whole notion of mysticism was started with a separation of the clergy and the layman. It was a way for the church to make its worshippers to feel guilty. It is understood that the first century church actually focused more on the resurrection rather than the cruxifiction - thus the cross was not a common sign within their worship culture.
A priest that had resently left the priesthood for the catholic church once told me:
"Religion is like software- for humans"
I could not agree more.
The sign of the cross was sometimes used by first - third century Christians to denote the dead presence of a Christian within some of the catacombs of Rome.
The Holy Cross was certainly a Christian sign when Helena found it 14 September 325.
the empty cross is a cross from which Christ has been removed, entombed then risen from the dead. As much as the protestants deny the resurrection, this is what their empty cross may signify, if you are imaginative enough...
the captives who suffer by noose or hypodermic are sharing in the death of christ and hence will participate in his resurrection, too. their wounds and objects of torture point to Jesus's.
Yes, there are signs that point to signs of God, but those signs are not necessarily signs of God themselves.
johndevlin: since when did protestants deny the resurrection? I am a protestant...
the picture of Costantine's Column (Cemberlitas) in istanbul, a column erected in 330AD to inaugurate the new Byzantine capital, constantinople. It's made of porphyry brought from Heliopolis, Egypt. it supported the statue of the emperor. And.., it is said to have the holly cross buried underneat.
abra, wasn't there also originally a similar column that supported a statue of Helena?
Constantinople was dedicated as the new Christian capital of the Roman Empire, not a new Byzantine capital.
As to the appearance of the cross in first - third century Roman catacombs, they specifically signified the dead presence of Christian martyrs.
Only part of the Holy Cross went to Constantinople. Most of it stayed at Jerusalem, specifically at the Church of the Holy Sepulcher, and part of it went to Rome and is still within the Helena chapel at Santa Croce in Gerusalemme, and is half of the titilus, the sign on the Cross.
said area (cemberlitas) was used as a necrepolis with colums lining up to street. last 50 years there has been many tombs found in the area between 8 to 10 meters deep.so it is very possible helena's obelisk stood there among other royalty.
the cross under constantine's is most likely a marytr gold. but i tell you, each time i am near cemberlitas, even the idea of the holy cross buried there, gives me goose bumps.
also,
'Her greatest fame, Helena acquired by an act for which she was probably not responsible, i.e. the finding of the True Cross. Her presence in Jerusalem and the description Eusebius presented of her stay in the Holy Land led ultimately to connecting Helena with the discovery of the Cross.'
the question remains;
was helena buried in rome or konstantinepoli?
mjh00c: sorry about that. I think that there are very liberal anglicans in UK and possibly episcopalians in the USA who deny (or who question) the resurrection. Correct me if I'm wrong. When I was a student in UK 25 years ago very liberal Oxbridge theologians were doubting the resurrection as well as the incarnation.
Helena was buried at Rome a day of two before 3 August 326, subsequent to her death 25 July 326, probably at Naples.
I have spent a good deal of time over the last six years gathering multitudinous data relative to the life of Helena, so single quotations mean very little to me. There are a lot of contradictions within modern Helena scholarship, and it has been exactly the contradictions that I have striven to understand and hopefully ultimately resolve.
One major aspect of the Helena's legend which has eluded modern scholarship is that a law of silence regarding Helena and the Cross was in force when Eusebius wrote of Helena in the Holy Land within his Life of Constantine (337). Ambrose, bishop of Milan, broke the silence regarding Helena and the Cross in his Obit Theodosi, the Obituary of Emperor Theodosius (395). The law of silence regarding Helena and the Cross was suggested immediately after the death of Helena to Constantine by Eutropia, and the reason for this law was so that overall power would stay within the Imperial ranks, rather than go to the Christian priesthood which then had a new sign, the True Cross, to confirm its power.
i like with the orient express twists. possibilities are endless. i wouldn't be surprised that the piece of the cross was ended up in istanbul. helena with the goods, coming from jerusalem to rome via istanbul.cooling off, rejuvaneting, new robes from the finest dressmakers and beauty slaves, the jewels, golden horn nights with vines from troy.
- eat your heart out vatican, you got nothing to show for. emperor gets it all.
rita direct me to the saintess.
* i guess goose bumps weren't for nothing..
18 September 324 - Constantine defeats Licinius at Chrysopolis and in turn becomes sole ruler of the Roman Empire.
8 November 324 - Constantine founds Constantinople
25 July 325 -- the Nicene Creed and conclusion of the Nicene Council, over which Constantine precided. 25 July 325 also marked the beginning of Constantine's 20th year as a Roman Augustus. It is fairly certain that Helena also attended the Nicene Council.
14 September 325 - Helena finds the Holy Cross at Jerusalem.
25 July 326 - the closing ceremonies of Constantine's 20th jubilee year at Rome. The death of Helena and the suicide of Fausta, Constantine's second wife (at Naples and Rome respectively).
3 August 325 - Constantine leaves Rome and never returns.
11 May 330 - dedication of Constantinople.
22 May 336 - death of Constantine at Nicomedia.
During Constantine's 20th jubilee year, his movements throughout the Empire were a gradual moving toward Rome over land--Greece, the Balkens, northern Italy. During the same period, Helena likely moved toward Rome via north Africa, ultimately crossing to Italy from Carthage.
3 August 326 - Constantine leaves Rome and never returns.
'3 August 326 - Constantine leaves Rome and never returns.' and.., brings the cross to c-poli..glove fits, smoke from rumors visible.
approx. a 10 centuries later holy properties are brought to istanbul from mecca by turks, including muhammed's sword and a hair from his beard..
this is a little off subject.
i was in brea the other day for work and saw a marquee in front of church...
"Your extremities are God's opportunities."
My PM and I bonded that day.
The emperor Alexander Severus at one point wished to include Jesus Christ among the pantheon of Roman gods, however, Alexander was advised against the Christian inclusion because of the quick realization that almost everyone in Rome would then openly become a Christian, and subsequently completely undermine Rome’s pagan priesthood and aristocratic powerbase. Evidently, by the first half of the third century, Christianity was already Rome’s predominant faith, and given that Alexander’s wish occurred close to a hundred years prior to the emperor Constantine’s allowance and erection of Christian tombs and basilicas within Rome, the noneventuality of Alexander’s desire is nonetheless a pivotal point that signals the beginning of paganism’s end. It is thus not for nothing that Piranesi, rather than position the Porticus Alexandri Severi correctly at the beginning of the Equiria, chooses to place Alexander’s porticus at the Equiria’s end.
--excerpt from Encyclopedia Ichnographica, 1998.12.01
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