As a reference, when I was an intern, I was paid 17.50 per hour, plus wage and a half overtime... This was for a fixed 6 month internship, great experience... The interns received a small bonus at bonus time, more as a token of appreciation... Due to alot of overtime, it actually paid quite a decent amount to live for 6 months... Interns in that office were floating labor moving between projects as needed, primarily contributing to cad, 2d and 3d graphical work, model building, document preparation in a strictly assisting role, occassional site visits... By employing interns in a floating role, projects could be staffed with project architects and pms, overseen by design principals, with the project architects "signing up" for hours of intern time as they needed on their projects... Aside from office wide crits etc the primary mentorship came from the project teams for the most part... There was one or two project architects who were the intern coordinators on the side of their project work, managing the schedules and staffing projects on a week by week basis... While there was a great culture of mentorship in the office generally, there wasn't really a dedicated training period or budget... The training was really on the job- the responsability of the whole office... This worked really well because of the culture of collaboration that was developed through the example of the senior staff... The firm had also developed a reputation as one of the better offices to work for through this culture and many permanent staff are former interns who went and worked at other offices in the city and later returned after accumulating valuable experience at other offices... Interns can be highly profitable IMHO if they are integrated into billing schedules very efficiently... This office in my mind set the bar for what an intern program that is sustainable should be...
In other words, I think if you can structure interns as a regular integral part of your process and practice, rather than as an occassional one time splurge or temporary cost, it can add fuel to your business IMHO, bringing an ongoing supply of ideas and energy while covering it's own cost...
Re: training... What I meant to say is, the project architect who needed help and "signed out" some time from an intern more or less also showed the intern what needed to be done, that was it... As the interns grew in skillsets or as staff architects knew what different interns were capable of, they would grow to trust different interns for a particular type of task... Sometimes what would happen is an intern might end up being signed out to a project for many consecutive weeks as they became more familiar with the project...
Also, as a point of reference for people who are actually experienced in the industry, out of work intern architects doing project work on a contract basis usually charge around $45 per hour to firms for billable hours...
Well that is based on what I know from friends in the industry... Contract workers don't get benefits also... I've heard of people getting $50 per hour for limited time contracts...
The 17.50 per hour plus wage and a half is probably a pretty decent amount IMHO for the amount of experience I got coming out of school, some places I know pay a bit less... Also I think it depends on the costs of living in your city...
I've also had an internship experience similar to that of bRink's. I was paid $18.00 per hour and received time and half for overtime, although I rarely stayed late. Floating labor is a good term to describe what I did there. During my time, I bounced back and forth between four very different projects, contributing to the same work bRink listed. I wasn't formerly trained to do anything. If I had a question about something, I'd simply ask someone on the team. The highly collaborative environment was the least bit intimidating, and helped me pick up how the office worked much faster than my current internship, which is more independent. This model of mentorship quickly prepared all the interns. Only a month into my internship, it was apparent I was very much a necessity to the office, despite only having a temporary contract. Project Managers were arguing over who would have me on their team for even just the day. This made me FEEL valuable, built up my confidence, and thus pushed me to work harder.
I don't feel the firm really invested too much time into actually giving me one on one training, as I've had with many of my manual labor jobs. Working in a team that consisted of principals, pm's, intermediate, and junior architects allowed me to learn about the profession at all levels simultaneously, and rather quickly.
Tuna, a for-profit company cannot write off expenses generated by using volunteer labor. That's a big one for starters. I say this because there is little-to-no-way to prove that those volunteers are actually incurring expenses. If you're not paying them a nd you're making money off them, your taxable income increases without the increase of expense.
That's great for overstimulating revenue in the short term but you're essentially cooking the books because a portion of your company is rooted in "off paper" antics.
If your firm is making say 1,000,000 a year and your office has 12 volunteers and 4 paid employees... you'd have to state operating income at that 1,000,000 minus overhead and payroll (we'll just say 60% or 600,000). Your tax liability would be 400,000 dollars (which after gross receipts tax and whatnot would be closer to 300,000).
Well, if you don't spend that money... you'll be paying another 8-12% in tax (if your state has a tangible property/assets tax). If you decide to give yourself that lump sum of money, you'll get hit with another 35%-40% in taxes.
Assuming you go the taking the money and run option, you'll be lucky to see maybe 200-250k out of that.
If you were to employ 6 of the "volunteers" part-time, 10 months with a crappy wage... You'd be dishing out about 60-90k a year.
If we remove that sum and run the numbers again--
It basically comes out to $200-210k profit with 6 paid interns and $220-230 with no paid interns.
While both of these situations are within the same tax bracket, some corporations and business types (especially with the context of architecture) are hit with an addition 15% tax at net incomes of $250,000 or more.
So, in reality (unless you want to challenge the validity of the tax system [a completely different story]), paying 90k out in intern salary is only 20k more expensive when it comes to net operating profit.
Counter examples? In the Netherlands, a company is allowed to write off up to 800 euros per volunteer with no questions, no proof needed.
I'm reminded of a specific court case, Alexander Eltman et al vs. Columbia-HCA Healthcare Corp. Eltman alleged the he had made some sort of agreement to volunteer at a hospital to provide comfort and support to sick patients. Well, his volunteer-ship duties changed dramatically. He posits that if he is doing clerical and orderly work, he should be receiving minimum wage FSLA.
Now the judge who was presiding over the case agreed but dismissed the case because Eltman was unable to phrase his argument in a convincing manner.
His case has opened the door for other lawsuits to take place on whether or not volunteers can retroactively seek pay in for-profit situations outside of what is considered a fair application of volunteer labor (generally for public good).
With volunteers in for-profit settings, there is the "Hospital Gift Shop Conodrum" from a 1996 letter from the Department of Labor which suggests that volunteering for benevolence (comfort, aid, public good) is not covered by the FSLA. However, a volunteer working at a hospital gift shop is covered by the FSLA and is entitled to minimum wage or the FSLA standard for a full-time employee.
The exception to that, however, is the Susan and Tony Alamo Foundation case in where volunteers providing benevolent services did fall under the guidelines for FSLA and should have been paid despite being volunteers.
Furthermore, the word "employ" as defined by the hallmark Walling vs. Portland Terminal Company defines employment as individuals who work for their own gain on the premises and individuals solely not working for their own personal reasons or pleasures for someone else doing the same.
That brings me to this fact. Based on Tony and Susan Alamo Foundation case, Walling vs. Portland Terminal Company case and Patel vs. Wargo, the reality behind this is not who does what and for how much but of the economic reality inherent in each situation.
As per FSLA, an employer must compensate an individual where a potential employee would be economically dependent on a potential employer.
To use a volunteer in an architectural office, that volunteer must be independently wealthy and must be there purely for personal and pleasurable reasons. I.e., Brad Pitt would be a perfectly legal volunteer hire.
However, if the slightest hint of using volunteer experience as motivation is to get a better job or the employer agrees to some variety of compensation in the indefinite future, there exists a massive legal liability of getting sued under the FSLA.
dsc-arch: the firm i interned at was pretty large, maybe 70+ people... not sure about smaller offices, i'm guessing the type of internship structure i described works better for larger offices... i'd imagine a smaller office might pay less, but i'm not sure... depending on the city also... maybe somebody who has interned at a small office can weigh in?
Unpaid Internships
As a reference, when I was an intern, I was paid 17.50 per hour, plus wage and a half overtime... This was for a fixed 6 month internship, great experience... The interns received a small bonus at bonus time, more as a token of appreciation... Due to alot of overtime, it actually paid quite a decent amount to live for 6 months... Interns in that office were floating labor moving between projects as needed, primarily contributing to cad, 2d and 3d graphical work, model building, document preparation in a strictly assisting role, occassional site visits... By employing interns in a floating role, projects could be staffed with project architects and pms, overseen by design principals, with the project architects "signing up" for hours of intern time as they needed on their projects... Aside from office wide crits etc the primary mentorship came from the project teams for the most part... There was one or two project architects who were the intern coordinators on the side of their project work, managing the schedules and staffing projects on a week by week basis... While there was a great culture of mentorship in the office generally, there wasn't really a dedicated training period or budget... The training was really on the job- the responsability of the whole office... This worked really well because of the culture of collaboration that was developed through the example of the senior staff... The firm had also developed a reputation as one of the better offices to work for through this culture and many permanent staff are former interns who went and worked at other offices in the city and later returned after accumulating valuable experience at other offices... Interns can be highly profitable IMHO if they are integrated into billing schedules very efficiently... This office in my mind set the bar for what an intern program that is sustainable should be...
In other words, I think if you can structure interns as a regular integral part of your process and practice, rather than as an occassional one time splurge or temporary cost, it can add fuel to your business IMHO, bringing an ongoing supply of ideas and energy while covering it's own cost...
Re: training... What I meant to say is, the project architect who needed help and "signed out" some time from an intern more or less also showed the intern what needed to be done, that was it... As the interns grew in skillsets or as staff architects knew what different interns were capable of, they would grow to trust different interns for a particular type of task... Sometimes what would happen is an intern might end up being signed out to a project for many consecutive weeks as they became more familiar with the project...
I should add however, these interns were usually m arch students or new graduates...
Also, as a point of reference for people who are actually experienced in the industry, out of work intern architects doing project work on a contract basis usually charge around $45 per hour to firms for billable hours...
Well that is based on what I know from friends in the industry... Contract workers don't get benefits also... I've heard of people getting $50 per hour for limited time contracts...
The 17.50 per hour plus wage and a half is probably a pretty decent amount IMHO for the amount of experience I got coming out of school, some places I know pay a bit less... Also I think it depends on the costs of living in your city...
I've also had an internship experience similar to that of bRink's. I was paid $18.00 per hour and received time and half for overtime, although I rarely stayed late. Floating labor is a good term to describe what I did there. During my time, I bounced back and forth between four very different projects, contributing to the same work bRink listed. I wasn't formerly trained to do anything. If I had a question about something, I'd simply ask someone on the team. The highly collaborative environment was the least bit intimidating, and helped me pick up how the office worked much faster than my current internship, which is more independent. This model of mentorship quickly prepared all the interns. Only a month into my internship, it was apparent I was very much a necessity to the office, despite only having a temporary contract. Project Managers were arguing over who would have me on their team for even just the day. This made me FEEL valuable, built up my confidence, and thus pushed me to work harder.
I don't feel the firm really invested too much time into actually giving me one on one training, as I've had with many of my manual labor jobs. Working in a team that consisted of principals, pm's, intermediate, and junior architects allowed me to learn about the profession at all levels simultaneously, and rather quickly.
take all interns who agree to work a free internship out back and beat them senseless! spare the rod, spoil the child.
That is all good news. However it appears that this still applies to masters candidates and interns in large firms.
Anyone have small firm experience as an intern?
Tuna, a for-profit company cannot write off expenses generated by using volunteer labor. That's a big one for starters. I say this because there is little-to-no-way to prove that those volunteers are actually incurring expenses. If you're not paying them a nd you're making money off them, your taxable income increases without the increase of expense.
That's great for overstimulating revenue in the short term but you're essentially cooking the books because a portion of your company is rooted in "off paper" antics.
If your firm is making say 1,000,000 a year and your office has 12 volunteers and 4 paid employees... you'd have to state operating income at that 1,000,000 minus overhead and payroll (we'll just say 60% or 600,000). Your tax liability would be 400,000 dollars (which after gross receipts tax and whatnot would be closer to 300,000).
Well, if you don't spend that money... you'll be paying another 8-12% in tax (if your state has a tangible property/assets tax). If you decide to give yourself that lump sum of money, you'll get hit with another 35%-40% in taxes.
Assuming you go the taking the money and run option, you'll be lucky to see maybe 200-250k out of that.
If you were to employ 6 of the "volunteers" part-time, 10 months with a crappy wage... You'd be dishing out about 60-90k a year.
If we remove that sum and run the numbers again--
It basically comes out to $200-210k profit with 6 paid interns and $220-230 with no paid interns.
While both of these situations are within the same tax bracket, some corporations and business types (especially with the context of architecture) are hit with an addition 15% tax at net incomes of $250,000 or more.
So, in reality (unless you want to challenge the validity of the tax system [a completely different story]), paying 90k out in intern salary is only 20k more expensive when it comes to net operating profit.
Counter examples? In the Netherlands, a company is allowed to write off up to 800 euros per volunteer with no questions, no proof needed.
I'm reminded of a specific court case, Alexander Eltman et al vs. Columbia-HCA Healthcare Corp. Eltman alleged the he had made some sort of agreement to volunteer at a hospital to provide comfort and support to sick patients. Well, his volunteer-ship duties changed dramatically. He posits that if he is doing clerical and orderly work, he should be receiving minimum wage FSLA.
Now the judge who was presiding over the case agreed but dismissed the case because Eltman was unable to phrase his argument in a convincing manner.
His case has opened the door for other lawsuits to take place on whether or not volunteers can retroactively seek pay in for-profit situations outside of what is considered a fair application of volunteer labor (generally for public good).
With volunteers in for-profit settings, there is the "Hospital Gift Shop Conodrum" from a 1996 letter from the Department of Labor which suggests that volunteering for benevolence (comfort, aid, public good) is not covered by the FSLA. However, a volunteer working at a hospital gift shop is covered by the FSLA and is entitled to minimum wage or the FSLA standard for a full-time employee.
The exception to that, however, is the Susan and Tony Alamo Foundation case in where volunteers providing benevolent services did fall under the guidelines for FSLA and should have been paid despite being volunteers.
Furthermore, the word "employ" as defined by the hallmark Walling vs. Portland Terminal Company defines employment as individuals who work for their own gain on the premises and individuals solely not working for their own personal reasons or pleasures for someone else doing the same.
That brings me to this fact. Based on Tony and Susan Alamo Foundation case, Walling vs. Portland Terminal Company case and Patel vs. Wargo, the reality behind this is not who does what and for how much but of the economic reality inherent in each situation.
As per FSLA, an employer must compensate an individual where a potential employee would be economically dependent on a potential employer.
To use a volunteer in an architectural office, that volunteer must be independently wealthy and must be there purely for personal and pleasurable reasons. I.e., Brad Pitt would be a perfectly legal volunteer hire.
However, if the slightest hint of using volunteer experience as motivation is to get a better job or the employer agrees to some variety of compensation in the indefinite future, there exists a massive legal liability of getting sued under the FSLA.
(Oh... a quality post on Archinect, how rare!)
Nice info montagneux.
BTW, do you have a source or link where we could read more on this?
dsc-arch: the firm i interned at was pretty large, maybe 70+ people... not sure about smaller offices, i'm guessing the type of internship structure i described works better for larger offices... i'd imagine a smaller office might pay less, but i'm not sure... depending on the city also... maybe somebody who has interned at a small office can weigh in?
dsc-arch:
I graduated with a B.Arch and the internship I worked at was a mid-size firm during my fourth year.
I currently intern at a small firm, for a stipend. I also have a part-time job on the weekends.
All for the sake of experience..
an interesting article that lays out both sides of the issue.
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