So, here's the deal. One of our intern architects had been with us for about 2-years. Generally, he was a good employee and we felt he showed promise. Suddenly last spring, he resigned to take a position at another, much bigger firm here in town. We hated to see him leave, but understood the wanderlust that affects young professionals. We wished him well.
Almost immediately, we started hearing rumors he was unhappy in his new position. About 8 weeks ago, he let us know he wanted to return to our firm -- we did not approach him. So, we started a dialogue and about 30 days later issued him a VERY NICE offer to fill a current vacancy. He accepted the offer and was suppose to start next week.
Last week, he called, saying that "oh, you know, my current employer got all upset when I submitted my notice, claiming they didn't know I was unhappy here. They made me all these great promises and I really think I need to stick it out a while longer."
So, here I sit, without anybody to fill this vacancy. We stopped recruiting other candidates for about 45-days, expecting this particular situation to work out.
If I had approached this guy first, I probably wouldn't be surprised or annoyed - but he contacted us. We invested a great deal of time in negotiating his return and we put staffing plans in place based on his acceptance of our offer.
It's fun to hear what life is like as an employer. Suddenly the lack of respect and dignity I get during the job hunt process makes a little more sense.
If your in NYC and need someone to fill the position I'll work for food.
i would tell him consider this bridge burned. quiz, as tough as the situation is out there you'll have no problem finding someone else. him on the other hand may not realize it yet, but in doing what he did to the other firm and then staying on, immediately put him at the top of their cut list when layoffs come, and they will come...
i think it's a good lesson about the current mentality of interns and how much you should invest in one individual intern. in general i think most interns are so completely used to a series of horizontal job changes during the internship process that they don't invest too much in the firms they bounce from. as offices take away incentives to stay like pensions, profit-sharing, what have you, and there is the knowledge that there is always another job around the corner, there are fewer and fewer reasons for interns to stay.
that being said, it might be good for you as an employer to be able to work within that same understanding. keep interviewing employees up until the employee you want fills the position. know that it's a competitive business hiring interns and that offering just a "competitive wage" will not always cut it if you're going after the best and the brightest. lay it out why you want that employee and what you will do for him or her when he or she starts - responsibilities he or she will have. why your office is the place to be. i think that may be a blow to the ego of a lot of employers, but just look at how google hires and the lengths they will go to bring in the best.
jafidler - points well taken. however, we have a great benefits program and good profit sharing. our wages are quite competitive -- and in this particular case, it wasn't about money. it's definitely not like we're abusing anybody.
I suppose - since this guy told us he wanted to come back and seemed sincere about it - I trusted him. Had I not, I would have continued interviewing. But, I really thought the position had been filled and I hate to mislead candidates or waste their time if I really don't have an opening to offer. I also hate to waste my own time.
I guess I'm just one of those old geezers, as discussed in another thread, who has this tendency to believe what people tell me. maybe I should reconsider that behavire.
Yes, quizzical, you do have a right to be upset. But look on the bright side: he could have come back to work with you for a few months only to leave for Company #2 or even a new Company #3. (I've seen it happen before.) Or even worse, he could have tried to negotiate an even higher salary with you.
I agree with beta in that the intern has now put himself on the top of the cut list. Furthermore, if his co-workers get wind of this - and they always do - no one will want to trust him or want to work on his projects. The same is true for your staff: who would trust him if he came back?
an employee has to do what they have to do. if he's playin one off another so what.that's business man. thats the capitalist system. every dog for himself. what does an employee owe an employer really? the idea of loyalty is obsolete... if your business was down you'd lay him off right on a friday afternoon with two weeks severance. right? right. you might feel bad about it until you get into the bimmer and get some kenny g on the ipod. so, stick it to the man i say...
Loyalty is not obsolete, it just needs to work in both directions. If it isn't that way where you work, go find somewhere else to work.
That's simplistic, I know, but it's true. I think quizzical is right to be pissed and I think this employee has earned himself a bad reputation at both firms.
Quizz sorry about all of that. As an employer I can see the difficulty in all of this - however if you are still feeling disappointed it might be worth talking to the intern. I know it might seem stepping over the boundary somewhat but much of those actions are related to someone's relative inexperience. Again sorry for all that....I can only imagine the stress
i would be totally pissed too. that is unadulterated rubbish.
philosophically speaking, i am pretty sure loyalty does not go both ways. or at least not in my experience. that is the pay off for interns and senior staff alike in our world.
i was laid off my last job at great office when bush invaded iraq and 2 large-ish projects i was running went on hold (only one has since been completed). this sucked, but sucked all the more more cuz i had let go my flat in japan, and my wife had quit her job too in preparation for moving as family to london (i was there on my own til then). i did not take it personally and am still friends with principal. but it literally changed my life (is why i am living in tokyo instead of london right now, and also why i am doing phd)...
no regrets, but the lesson learned was that an office will not go very far for their staff...in my case the office in question knew what was going on but did not inform me for a week or two. that cost me personally, fairly heavily. but everything has worked out anyway, so am not too unhappy about it. is just life in a capitalist world.
on other hand my first boss in japan has always maintained ties and been a friend/mentor, and now we are working together, his office and my own, because we did not burn any bridges. loyalty in the sense that i would never quit an office is not something i believe in. however, their is no need to show disrespect...
vado - in my view, this is not about loyalty. we were supportive and not resentful when this intern left last spring.
nor is it about what the other firm did to keep their employee. it's common for me to deal with that condition as part of the recruitment process.
your comments about layoffs are insulting. yes, we did have a few layoffs about 9-months after 9/11, but not until we were severely in the red, had tapped out 75% of our line of credit, and the partners had been on 1/2 pay for 6-months. we loaned out every employee we could, -- most of those came back and are still with us today. none of the employees we retained suffered pay cuts. I drive a domestic sedan.
what this is about is a young professional who stirred the pot, made a decision that put some things in motion, who gave his word -- then did an abrupt about-face, for his own convenience and with little concern for what he had wrought.
well, maybe the other firm feels the same way and made a better offer to him. so he changed his mind. , its a free country last time i checked. and so he burned a bridge. he'll burn many more. and he'll more than likely get his somewhere along the line...and the layoff scenario was crafted from my own experiences...
it is a true generality though. business decisions must by definition require a certain kind of prioritisation. in capitalist society the continuing existence of a company beats out loyalty to staff and vice versa. the choice as to where one draws the line as to what behaviour is acceptable is the only real distinction.
it sounds like you draw the line in favor of your staff, and you are right to be angry. the feller in question made a personal choice that amounted to a quiet message equivalent to a big ol 'piss off'.
i know others who have done the same in archi-biz, some going on to rather big things as a result (moving on up to run offices/depts etc and burning bridges on the way). which i think is evidence of bad personal skills more than anything....
still, in real "business" world this is so common it isn't even funny. your desk at a trading office can be moved out in a morning and you are instantly out of work if you lose too much money; or an employer may find his star employee has been snagged by a rival and ain't doing no more of those fancy trades for him/her anymore...it is really like the stock market, a land of instant gratification and excess that would astound most people. what amazes me is that in that world it is entirely normal. continuity is not a given...ever.
anyway, i don't see my own experience as bad or good. it was just something i had to deal with and not personal at all. how my employer handled certain aspects of it i was not so happy about, but such is life, and they were not spiteful. it may be your young intern is doing the same. he is def bungling something, but maybe not on porpoise. i think is easiest to jest let it go. and don't think of hiring him again.
I think it was unethical for the employee to string you along (for what, 45 days?) It's simply wrong.
" ..guess I'm just one of those old geezers, as discussed in another thread, who has this tendency to believe what people tell me. maybe I should reconsider that behavior"
quizzical – I had to laugh at your statement because I am guilty as charged when it comes to believing what people say, they will do – and I recall long ago when I was interviewing, and they asked that silly question: "what is your weakness?" Well, I always respond, I trust people too much. They give me their word and I take it as gold; I believe that they will follow through and make good on their word – unfortunately, too many people have let me down.
No integrity or back bone on behalf of the intern. One thing I hate abot doing business, if I can't do a deal on a hand shake or one's word I don't do business with people. Now I always have a contract but I feel as though its never a big deal I love having clients, staff business, associates that have a sense of trust, loyality and respectfulness of how they conduct themselves, perhaps a bit old school but those traits never go out of style.
wow, i would wait 45 days and still be patient only if i knew the person really really well and i have a soft corner. its like a break up, life moves on...
quiz, did you really expect this young kid to even know how to act professionally? i'm sure he has no idea what he's doing and feels way
over his head when it comes to the ettiquette of hiring practices/switching jobs.
forget about it quickly, don't let the village idiot get to you.
i think you all are heaping on this kid pretty bad, and i'm not even sure he did anything unethical. he expressed interest in returning to his old firm. he accepted the offer, which is problematic, but backed out. i don't know; i just don't see this as the major breach of ethics that many of you do. more i see it as the actions of an indecisive kid who's probably not receiving a lot of mentoring in his career choices or is not talking to people he should before making a decision. i'm sorry this happened to you, quizzical, and that it sounds like it had a significant impact on your staffing, but i also think you may have been placing too much importance on one inexperienced intern.
jafidler, I think "unethical" is too strong; "inconsiderate" is more appropriate.
It is actually a good question: should quizzical invest any time trying to show i.e. educate/mentor this person as to how he has made a professional blunder, or should quizzaical let it go and not waste another second of energy on him?
I can tell you with a dead certainty that the intern in question would bristle at being called an "indecisive kid" - the self-image is worlds away from that description. at every stage, we dealt with this person as an adult.
as for mentoring, before his departure I and another partner spent considerable time coaching this individual on career choices and opportunities. although we indicated clearly that we wanted him to remain with our firm, we didn't go to extremes to stand in his way - only tried to help him make a decision that was right for him.
when he approached us about coming back, I had several 1-on-1 sessions with him that generally took the same tone -- we would have welcomed him back, but we also counseled him that only he would know what was right for his own career. it was after all of that discussion that we made the offer that he accepted, and then later blew-off.
I am not upset with his decision -- as Vado says "its a free country" -- however, I am upset [disappointed] over the way he handled the relationship. I found his behavior totally self-absorbed and unprofessional.
I want to emphasize that I'm not obsessing over this matter -- I've moved on. I have 5 decent candidates we're considering for the vacant slot. I just thought this would be an interesting forum for this topic to be discussed. There are many useful lessons for archinectors at all levels.
personally, i'd just move on. this incident has already taken up too much time, and as someone said earlier, one way or another, this individual will eventually learn his lesson.
It happens, in this knowledge-based economy, you do get idiots, and yes, I would be upset if I were you, though, don't be too hard on the next unexpecting soul who unknowingly shows inclanation to repeat, because he may actually have a concience.
Well you are calling him and "intern" after 2 years -
"Interns" get screwed over all the time
- Give me a break on the mentoring thing - He was there for 2 years - He messed up but it's really not that bad - I mean he's just an "intern"
- And please no talk on how the AIA defines "interns" - It's been done and it's bullshit
How about "Designer" -or anything else
It has nothing to do with legality - I'm not saying he should be called and 'A'rchitect but how many other professions call people interns after 3 years - Give me a break - It's disrespectful - And yes it does have to do with the AIA
you should be more upset about telling people that you are upset then asking if you should be upset...your interns waffling reflects your own. he learned well.
quizzical...i just hope that this experience won't discourage you from being a very considerate employer. i hope more employers would treat their staff as you do.
having said that, i stayed with my first employer for 8.5 years, and although i left in very amicable terms, my prolonged stay proved not to be the smartest thing, financially, and professionally - somewhat. I tend to be very loyal, and when it comes to professional growth, loyalty is not very well rewarded in our profession - of course there are exceptions.
it has been my experience, however, that the best way to grow professionally (financially and in responsibility) is to move from office to office;
Having said that, the worst way to grow professionally is by burning bridges, and going back in one's word.
I'll second simples' hope that quizzical remain a considerate employer.
There are a lot of a**hole bosses out there, certainly, but in my own experience there a lot more businesspeople who don't let "business" keep them from acting responsibly and considerately.
i also agree with simples. quizzical has always been thoughtful and helpful to the archinect community and by every indication he treats his staff the same. don't let one person actions change you. I also trust what people have told me. it's the product of growing up in a small town. You say you are going to do something then I expect you to follow through on your actions. I have also been burned by this from time to time. That's fine by me because I would rather believe in people than be skeptical of them.
seems like this free country but wheeler dealer-esque young architect used your offer as a leverage to get what he wants from his current employer.
not a good personal standart.
when everything else evaporates, sincerity holds. that young man might learn the hard way some day.
i agree, quizzical is a totally considerate boss from what i read from his posts. young man's loss and other, perhaps more honest, candidates gain.
abra.
The intern should have told you sooner what his true intentions were. It sounds like he'd made up his mind to stay at this other firm, and told you at the last minute...which is something to be pissed about. Upfront honesty is the best policy.
On the flip side, I've tried to be very considerate and not burn bridges with some of my previous employers, but I can't say they've been as thoughtful in return. So it goes both ways.
sue and garnish his wages, if you have it in paperwork j/k
but never let others control your feelings and that goes for him and you
not to be upset but to get back on task looking for new tallent and for him in the first place not to be so fearful to let you know his new new decision
turnover is amazing i have seen the rotation of 1/2 a office in the last year and this is a top 5 in size firm.
and cut that 'should' stuff out if you can. it's amtsprache ;)
I am still standing behind that what this intern did was unethical and I am quite surprised that most are playing this off as if it is no big deal. No, I do not consider this a major breach, but we do need to address the ethical dilemma. Being an ethical job seeker means, "doing the right thing" by accepting a job offer in good faith. I talked to an attorney friend, which stated in simple terms that the employee and employer both accepted this verbal agreement with "good faith" intentions. The ethical issue in such circumstances is one of "good faith," namely that both parties made a decision with full intent to carry it out.
There is a ton of information out on the web that concurs that accepting a job offer only to retract is considered unethical behavior – sounds like we all need to read up on the ethics subject. I strongly encourage everyone to read up on the subject to understand the ethical issues surrounding this matter and understand the legalities and consequences it may cause. I'll post a test on the subject in a week so be ready :)
Ethics & Protocols in Today's Workplace To accept a position, and then renege on it for a better offer, is poor form and may result in legal action against you. Fact: It is unethical to continue to interview after accepting an offer and/or to renege on an accepted position.
Monstertrak – Ethics and Searching for Jobs It is not ethical to accept a job offer while continuing your search for another job or waiting for another company to offer you a better position. …Ethics: and in regards to timely notification: Once you have made your decision, you are ethically bound to notify the rejected company promptly. The company needs to move forward with its staffing plans and the next candidate in line may be looking forward to receiving the offer. Don't forget the other birds in the forest just because your own nest is well feathered.
Avoid Unethical Situations while Accepting a Job Offer Accepting an offer is a professional commitment. To avoid the temptation of a potentially unethical situation, make sure you have as many possible answers before accepting the position.
Ethics & the Job Search Ethical Dilemma: Is it okay to accept a job offer and then retract it later if something “better” comes along? The answer to this question is quite straightforward: No. Retracting an accepted employment offer is perhaps the cardinal sin of job-hunting. Consequences are many: not only is a retraction a major breech of integrity, but the organization involved will hold a permanent black mark against the candidate.
...yeah Katze, i have to agree, because i'd put myself in the opposite position, if an offer was made to me, i make a move across country - after turning down another offer - only to have that offer pulled back. how would i feel, and what would be my legal recourse...
old fogey, by your example then, what this kid did was unethical. if all interns did what he did then does it not damage architecture profession, give interns, future grads a bad name?
jangles, yes that's true, and chances are if that intern was posting here, he'd probably back track and say that he never really accepted an offer to go back to the last firm or that it was never written in stone or that he reserves the right to change his mind. except that quiz has noted how his firm pretty much walked him through the process and bent over backwards for this guy. i don't think there is much he can say.
I want to thank everybody who has followed this thread and especially those of you who made a contribution. This has been an interesting dialogue and I appreciate all feedback, even from those of you who find it hard to be constructive.
As for my motivations, I acknowledge that we all will put our own little spin on any description of a situation. I've tried to be accurate and even handed. All I wanted from this exercise was a reality check on my own thinking. I've tried to be honest and objective. If I've failed, the failure is entirely my own.
My view is that this thread has run it course and there's little more to be said. Thanks for helping me think through an awkward situation.
As an intern I would like to give some possible reasons that could trigger a colleague to jump ship.
#1 a life work imbalance.
Long hard hours or being called in to work at the last minute makes it difficult for your junior employees. Over time is necessary but if the boss is not burning the midnight oil along with his subordinates then that is a potential blow to morale.
#2 A lack of diversity in the work place
A minority employee who is the only one there will have a difficult time feeling comfortable and not being perceived as a token. This is particularly difficult in smaller offices of 4 or 5 people. One possible remedy is to encourage the employee to work with the local ALA or AIA or try to arrange social events with other firms so this aspiring professional does not feel isolated. Remember minorities in Gender, race, religion, age, and sexual orientation, need and or value having comrades in the office who are like them.
#3 the supervisors or principles having a very strong political or religious ideology and expressing it in an overt or overbearing way can be a problem.
It can be uncomfortable for any subordinate to have to deal with on a regular basis strong political or religious views being espoused from the boss or collogues. This creates stress and can be misconstrued as a reason for being denied advancement. If my beliefs are different than the boss that is ok but be careful not to make issues outside of the office be perceived as policy. Think of elections or news events as potential pitfalls for this problem. Best thing is to respect opinions and keep conversation civil at all times.
#4 lack of progress on specific IDP training units
Most interns want to become a licensed architect, I know I always ask about the firm’s commitment to IDP. If I was looking for a job a strong commitment to helping me get a well rounded IDP experience can make up for a 10-30% salary difference. The good thing is IDP doesn’t cost that much to deal with effectively. Have everyone in your office start their IDP file with NCARB and have a quarterly meeting and signing of earned credits. Try keeping on file an IDP summary for all of your interns under your supervision so that you can be aware of who will benefit the most from being assigned specific task. This will be a huge saver in my opinion because it shows commitment to me the intern and if there is an IDP coordinator who has me scheduled to get the next piece of the IDP puzzle then I might think twice about moving to a firm that doesn’t know what IDP is.
Interesting to revive this thread now, 1 1/2 years after it was started. I can't imagine too many people (especially interns) are in any position to willingly job hop in this economy.
The link was posted on the layoffs thread. I think when the economy is stable again and firms start looking for new talent to fill empty chairs that this could become an issue again and much worse than it was in 06-07. The issue of loyalty cuts both ways and firms that dumped their loyal interns to snatch up star talent might be left jilted when the economy picks up and talent jumps ship for what ever reasons drive those moves.
How can firms keep their talent that they took risk to acquire during this labor fire sale that is going on right now?
Should I be upset ?
So, here's the deal. One of our intern architects had been with us for about 2-years. Generally, he was a good employee and we felt he showed promise. Suddenly last spring, he resigned to take a position at another, much bigger firm here in town. We hated to see him leave, but understood the wanderlust that affects young professionals. We wished him well.
Almost immediately, we started hearing rumors he was unhappy in his new position. About 8 weeks ago, he let us know he wanted to return to our firm -- we did not approach him. So, we started a dialogue and about 30 days later issued him a VERY NICE offer to fill a current vacancy. He accepted the offer and was suppose to start next week.
Last week, he called, saying that "oh, you know, my current employer got all upset when I submitted my notice, claiming they didn't know I was unhappy here. They made me all these great promises and I really think I need to stick it out a while longer."
So, here I sit, without anybody to fill this vacancy. We stopped recruiting other candidates for about 45-days, expecting this particular situation to work out.
If I had approached this guy first, I probably wouldn't be surprised or annoyed - but he contacted us. We invested a great deal of time in negotiating his return and we put staffing plans in place based on his acceptance of our offer.
As it is, I'm pissed.
wow - yeah i'd be pissed too.
i'm also somewhat sad for both of you because he managed to burn that bridge pretty well...young unprofessional wanderlust?
It's fun to hear what life is like as an employer. Suddenly the lack of respect and dignity I get during the job hunt process makes a little more sense.
If your in NYC and need someone to fill the position I'll work for food.
i would tell him consider this bridge burned. quiz, as tough as the situation is out there you'll have no problem finding someone else. him on the other hand may not realize it yet, but in doing what he did to the other firm and then staying on, immediately put him at the top of their cut list when layoffs come, and they will come...
Sorry Apurimac ... but we're a long, long way from the Big Apple.
i think it's a good lesson about the current mentality of interns and how much you should invest in one individual intern. in general i think most interns are so completely used to a series of horizontal job changes during the internship process that they don't invest too much in the firms they bounce from. as offices take away incentives to stay like pensions, profit-sharing, what have you, and there is the knowledge that there is always another job around the corner, there are fewer and fewer reasons for interns to stay.
that being said, it might be good for you as an employer to be able to work within that same understanding. keep interviewing employees up until the employee you want fills the position. know that it's a competitive business hiring interns and that offering just a "competitive wage" will not always cut it if you're going after the best and the brightest. lay it out why you want that employee and what you will do for him or her when he or she starts - responsibilities he or she will have. why your office is the place to be. i think that may be a blow to the ego of a lot of employers, but just look at how google hires and the lengths they will go to bring in the best.
jafidler - points well taken. however, we have a great benefits program and good profit sharing. our wages are quite competitive -- and in this particular case, it wasn't about money. it's definitely not like we're abusing anybody.
I suppose - since this guy told us he wanted to come back and seemed sincere about it - I trusted him. Had I not, I would have continued interviewing. But, I really thought the position had been filled and I hate to mislead candidates or waste their time if I really don't have an opening to offer. I also hate to waste my own time.
I guess I'm just one of those old geezers, as discussed in another thread, who has this tendency to believe what people tell me. maybe I should reconsider that behavire.
Yes, quizzical, you do have a right to be upset. But look on the bright side: he could have come back to work with you for a few months only to leave for Company #2 or even a new Company #3. (I've seen it happen before.) Or even worse, he could have tried to negotiate an even higher salary with you.
I agree with beta in that the intern has now put himself on the top of the cut list. Furthermore, if his co-workers get wind of this - and they always do - no one will want to trust him or want to work on his projects. The same is true for your staff: who would trust him if he came back?
You probably lucked out on this one.
an employee has to do what they have to do. if he's playin one off another so what.that's business man. thats the capitalist system. every dog for himself. what does an employee owe an employer really? the idea of loyalty is obsolete... if your business was down you'd lay him off right on a friday afternoon with two weeks severance. right? right. you might feel bad about it until you get into the bimmer and get some kenny g on the ipod. so, stick it to the man i say...
Loyalty is not obsolete, it just needs to work in both directions. If it isn't that way where you work, go find somewhere else to work.
That's simplistic, I know, but it's true. I think quizzical is right to be pissed and I think this employee has earned himself a bad reputation at both firms.
Quizz sorry about all of that. As an employer I can see the difficulty in all of this - however if you are still feeling disappointed it might be worth talking to the intern. I know it might seem stepping over the boundary somewhat but much of those actions are related to someone's relative inexperience. Again sorry for all that....I can only imagine the stress
well next time you get called in the office and are told its not personal its just business. give me a shout.
and yeah I think you should be upset
i would be totally pissed too. that is unadulterated rubbish.
philosophically speaking, i am pretty sure loyalty does not go both ways. or at least not in my experience. that is the pay off for interns and senior staff alike in our world.
i was laid off my last job at great office when bush invaded iraq and 2 large-ish projects i was running went on hold (only one has since been completed). this sucked, but sucked all the more more cuz i had let go my flat in japan, and my wife had quit her job too in preparation for moving as family to london (i was there on my own til then). i did not take it personally and am still friends with principal. but it literally changed my life (is why i am living in tokyo instead of london right now, and also why i am doing phd)...
no regrets, but the lesson learned was that an office will not go very far for their staff...in my case the office in question knew what was going on but did not inform me for a week or two. that cost me personally, fairly heavily. but everything has worked out anyway, so am not too unhappy about it. is just life in a capitalist world.
on other hand my first boss in japan has always maintained ties and been a friend/mentor, and now we are working together, his office and my own, because we did not burn any bridges. loyalty in the sense that i would never quit an office is not something i believe in. however, their is no need to show disrespect...
vado - in my view, this is not about loyalty. we were supportive and not resentful when this intern left last spring.
nor is it about what the other firm did to keep their employee. it's common for me to deal with that condition as part of the recruitment process.
your comments about layoffs are insulting. yes, we did have a few layoffs about 9-months after 9/11, but not until we were severely in the red, had tapped out 75% of our line of credit, and the partners had been on 1/2 pay for 6-months. we loaned out every employee we could, -- most of those came back and are still with us today. none of the employees we retained suffered pay cuts. I drive a domestic sedan.
what this is about is a young professional who stirred the pot, made a decision that put some things in motion, who gave his word -- then did an abrupt about-face, for his own convenience and with little concern for what he had wrought.
well, maybe the other firm feels the same way and made a better offer to him. so he changed his mind. , its a free country last time i checked. and so he burned a bridge. he'll burn many more. and he'll more than likely get his somewhere along the line...and the layoff scenario was crafted from my own experiences...
vado, it's regrettable that you and jump both had bad experiences. not every firm operates that way.
imo, it's destructive to extrapolate from individual experiences to generalities that tarnish an entire profession.
it is a true generality though. business decisions must by definition require a certain kind of prioritisation. in capitalist society the continuing existence of a company beats out loyalty to staff and vice versa. the choice as to where one draws the line as to what behaviour is acceptable is the only real distinction.
it sounds like you draw the line in favor of your staff, and you are right to be angry. the feller in question made a personal choice that amounted to a quiet message equivalent to a big ol 'piss off'.
i know others who have done the same in archi-biz, some going on to rather big things as a result (moving on up to run offices/depts etc and burning bridges on the way). which i think is evidence of bad personal skills more than anything....
still, in real "business" world this is so common it isn't even funny. your desk at a trading office can be moved out in a morning and you are instantly out of work if you lose too much money; or an employer may find his star employee has been snagged by a rival and ain't doing no more of those fancy trades for him/her anymore...it is really like the stock market, a land of instant gratification and excess that would astound most people. what amazes me is that in that world it is entirely normal. continuity is not a given...ever.
anyway, i don't see my own experience as bad or good. it was just something i had to deal with and not personal at all. how my employer handled certain aspects of it i was not so happy about, but such is life, and they were not spiteful. it may be your young intern is doing the same. he is def bungling something, but maybe not on porpoise. i think is easiest to jest let it go. and don't think of hiring him again.
I think it was unethical for the employee to string you along (for what, 45 days?) It's simply wrong.
" ..guess I'm just one of those old geezers, as discussed in another thread, who has this tendency to believe what people tell me. maybe I should reconsider that behavior"
quizzical – I had to laugh at your statement because I am guilty as charged when it comes to believing what people say, they will do – and I recall long ago when I was interviewing, and they asked that silly question: "what is your weakness?" Well, I always respond, I trust people too much. They give me their word and I take it as gold; I believe that they will follow through and make good on their word – unfortunately, too many people have let me down.
No integrity or back bone on behalf of the intern. One thing I hate abot doing business, if I can't do a deal on a hand shake or one's word I don't do business with people. Now I always have a contract but I feel as though its never a big deal I love having clients, staff business, associates that have a sense of trust, loyality and respectfulness of how they conduct themselves, perhaps a bit old school but those traits never go out of style.
at this point you could just email this thread to the person who screwed you over .....
I am sure we'll see this same thread in a few months , except some intern somewhere will feel screwed by a momentarily unethical firm.
wow, i would wait 45 days and still be patient only if i knew the person really really well and i have a soft corner. its like a break up, life moves on...
quiz, did you really expect this young kid to even know how to act professionally? i'm sure he has no idea what he's doing and feels way
over his head when it comes to the ettiquette of hiring practices/switching jobs.
forget about it quickly, don't let the village idiot get to you.
i think you all are heaping on this kid pretty bad, and i'm not even sure he did anything unethical. he expressed interest in returning to his old firm. he accepted the offer, which is problematic, but backed out. i don't know; i just don't see this as the major breach of ethics that many of you do. more i see it as the actions of an indecisive kid who's probably not receiving a lot of mentoring in his career choices or is not talking to people he should before making a decision. i'm sorry this happened to you, quizzical, and that it sounds like it had a significant impact on your staffing, but i also think you may have been placing too much importance on one inexperienced intern.
jafidler, I think "unethical" is too strong; "inconsiderate" is more appropriate.
It is actually a good question: should quizzical invest any time trying to show i.e. educate/mentor this person as to how he has made a professional blunder, or should quizzaical let it go and not waste another second of energy on him?
I can tell you with a dead certainty that the intern in question would bristle at being called an "indecisive kid" - the self-image is worlds away from that description. at every stage, we dealt with this person as an adult.
as for mentoring, before his departure I and another partner spent considerable time coaching this individual on career choices and opportunities. although we indicated clearly that we wanted him to remain with our firm, we didn't go to extremes to stand in his way - only tried to help him make a decision that was right for him.
when he approached us about coming back, I had several 1-on-1 sessions with him that generally took the same tone -- we would have welcomed him back, but we also counseled him that only he would know what was right for his own career. it was after all of that discussion that we made the offer that he accepted, and then later blew-off.
I am not upset with his decision -- as Vado says "its a free country" -- however, I am upset [disappointed] over the way he handled the relationship. I found his behavior totally self-absorbed and unprofessional.
I want to emphasize that I'm not obsessing over this matter -- I've moved on. I have 5 decent candidates we're considering for the vacant slot. I just thought this would be an interesting forum for this topic to be discussed. There are many useful lessons for archinectors at all levels.
personally, i'd just move on. this incident has already taken up too much time, and as someone said earlier, one way or another, this individual will eventually learn his lesson.
It happens, in this knowledge-based economy, you do get idiots, and yes, I would be upset if I were you, though, don't be too hard on the next unexpecting soul who unknowingly shows inclanation to repeat, because he may actually have a concience.
...now that's funny
Well you are calling him and "intern" after 2 years -
"Interns" get screwed over all the time
- Give me a break on the mentoring thing - He was there for 2 years - He messed up but it's really not that bad - I mean he's just an "intern"
- And please no talk on how the AIA defines "interns" - It's been done and it's bullshit
calm down pal ... it's just a legally mandated term that can get a firm in deep sh*t if they call an unlicensed professional an "architect"
has almost nothing to do with AIA at all.
How about "Designer" -or anything else
It has nothing to do with legality - I'm not saying he should be called and 'A'rchitect but how many other professions call people interns after 3 years - Give me a break - It's disrespectful - And yes it does have to do with the AIA
you should be more upset about telling people that you are upset then asking if you should be upset...your interns waffling reflects your own. he learned well.
quizzical...i just hope that this experience won't discourage you from being a very considerate employer. i hope more employers would treat their staff as you do.
having said that, i stayed with my first employer for 8.5 years, and although i left in very amicable terms, my prolonged stay proved not to be the smartest thing, financially, and professionally - somewhat. I tend to be very loyal, and when it comes to professional growth, loyalty is not very well rewarded in our profession - of course there are exceptions.
it has been my experience, however, that the best way to grow professionally (financially and in responsibility) is to move from office to office;
Having said that, the worst way to grow professionally is by burning bridges, and going back in one's word.
I'll second simples' hope that quizzical remain a considerate employer.
There are a lot of a**hole bosses out there, certainly, but in my own experience there a lot more businesspeople who don't let "business" keep them from acting responsibly and considerately.
i also agree with simples. quizzical has always been thoughtful and helpful to the archinect community and by every indication he treats his staff the same. don't let one person actions change you. I also trust what people have told me. it's the product of growing up in a small town. You say you are going to do something then I expect you to follow through on your actions. I have also been burned by this from time to time. That's fine by me because I would rather believe in people than be skeptical of them.
seems like this free country but wheeler dealer-esque young architect used your offer as a leverage to get what he wants from his current employer.
not a good personal standart.
when everything else evaporates, sincerity holds. that young man might learn the hard way some day.
i agree, quizzical is a totally considerate boss from what i read from his posts. young man's loss and other, perhaps more honest, candidates gain.
abra.
The intern should have told you sooner what his true intentions were. It sounds like he'd made up his mind to stay at this other firm, and told you at the last minute...which is something to be pissed about. Upfront honesty is the best policy.
On the flip side, I've tried to be very considerate and not burn bridges with some of my previous employers, but I can't say they've been as thoughtful in return. So it goes both ways.
sue and garnish his wages, if you have it in paperwork j/k
but never let others control your feelings and that goes for him and you
not to be upset but to get back on task looking for new tallent and for him in the first place not to be so fearful to let you know his new new decision
turnover is amazing i have seen the rotation of 1/2 a office in the last year and this is a top 5 in size firm.
and cut that 'should' stuff out if you can. it's amtsprache ;)
I am still standing behind that what this intern did was unethical and I am quite surprised that most are playing this off as if it is no big deal. No, I do not consider this a major breach, but we do need to address the ethical dilemma. Being an ethical job seeker means, "doing the right thing" by accepting a job offer in good faith. I talked to an attorney friend, which stated in simple terms that the employee and employer both accepted this verbal agreement with "good faith" intentions. The ethical issue in such circumstances is one of "good faith," namely that both parties made a decision with full intent to carry it out.
There is a ton of information out on the web that concurs that accepting a job offer only to retract is considered unethical behavior – sounds like we all need to read up on the ethics subject. I strongly encourage everyone to read up on the subject to understand the ethical issues surrounding this matter and understand the legalities and consequences it may cause. I'll post a test on the subject in a week so be ready :)
Ethics & Protocols in Today's Workplace
To accept a position, and then renege on it for a better offer, is poor form and may result in legal action against you. Fact: It is unethical to continue to interview after accepting an offer and/or to renege on an accepted position.
Monstertrak – Ethics and Searching for Jobs
It is not ethical to accept a job offer while continuing your search for another job or waiting for another company to offer you a better position. …Ethics: and in regards to timely notification: Once you have made your decision, you are ethically bound to notify the rejected company promptly. The company needs to move forward with its staffing plans and the next candidate in line may be looking forward to receiving the offer. Don't forget the other birds in the forest just because your own nest is well feathered.
Avoid Unethical Situations while Accepting a Job Offer
Accepting an offer is a professional commitment. To avoid the temptation of a potentially unethical situation, make sure you have as many possible answers before accepting the position.
Ethics & the Job Search
Ethical Dilemma: Is it okay to accept a job offer and then retract it later if something “better” comes along? The answer to this question is quite straightforward: No. Retracting an accepted employment offer is perhaps the cardinal sin of job-hunting. Consequences are many: not only is a retraction a major breech of integrity, but the organization involved will hold a permanent black mark against the candidate.
...yeah Katze, i have to agree, because i'd put myself in the opposite position, if an offer was made to me, i make a move across country - after turning down another offer - only to have that offer pulled back. how would i feel, and what would be my legal recourse...
before you all get too riled up over this, please note that we are only hearing one side of the story.
I couldn't agree with you more Beta…
...and you are right mr. bojangles - we are only hearing one side of the story – but what would quizzical have to gain by fabricating this story?
old fogey, by your example then, what this kid did was unethical. if all interns did what he did then does it not damage architecture profession, give interns, future grads a bad name?
jangles, yes that's true, and chances are if that intern was posting here, he'd probably back track and say that he never really accepted an offer to go back to the last firm or that it was never written in stone or that he reserves the right to change his mind. except that quiz has noted how his firm pretty much walked him through the process and bent over backwards for this guy. i don't think there is much he can say.
I want to thank everybody who has followed this thread and especially those of you who made a contribution. This has been an interesting dialogue and I appreciate all feedback, even from those of you who find it hard to be constructive.
As for my motivations, I acknowledge that we all will put our own little spin on any description of a situation. I've tried to be accurate and even handed. All I wanted from this exercise was a reality check on my own thinking. I've tried to be honest and objective. If I've failed, the failure is entirely my own.
My view is that this thread has run it course and there's little more to be said. Thanks for helping me think through an awkward situation.
As an intern I would like to give some possible reasons that could trigger a colleague to jump ship.
#1 a life work imbalance.
Long hard hours or being called in to work at the last minute makes it difficult for your junior employees. Over time is necessary but if the boss is not burning the midnight oil along with his subordinates then that is a potential blow to morale.
#2 A lack of diversity in the work place
A minority employee who is the only one there will have a difficult time feeling comfortable and not being perceived as a token. This is particularly difficult in smaller offices of 4 or 5 people. One possible remedy is to encourage the employee to work with the local ALA or AIA or try to arrange social events with other firms so this aspiring professional does not feel isolated. Remember minorities in Gender, race, religion, age, and sexual orientation, need and or value having comrades in the office who are like them.
#3 the supervisors or principles having a very strong political or religious ideology and expressing it in an overt or overbearing way can be a problem.
It can be uncomfortable for any subordinate to have to deal with on a regular basis strong political or religious views being espoused from the boss or collogues. This creates stress and can be misconstrued as a reason for being denied advancement. If my beliefs are different than the boss that is ok but be careful not to make issues outside of the office be perceived as policy. Think of elections or news events as potential pitfalls for this problem. Best thing is to respect opinions and keep conversation civil at all times.
#4 lack of progress on specific IDP training units
Most interns want to become a licensed architect, I know I always ask about the firm’s commitment to IDP. If I was looking for a job a strong commitment to helping me get a well rounded IDP experience can make up for a 10-30% salary difference. The good thing is IDP doesn’t cost that much to deal with effectively. Have everyone in your office start their IDP file with NCARB and have a quarterly meeting and signing of earned credits. Try keeping on file an IDP summary for all of your interns under your supervision so that you can be aware of who will benefit the most from being assigned specific task. This will be a huge saver in my opinion because it shows commitment to me the intern and if there is an IDP coordinator who has me scheduled to get the next piece of the IDP puzzle then I might think twice about moving to a firm that doesn’t know what IDP is.
Is his name Judd Gregg?
Interesting to revive this thread now, 1 1/2 years after it was started. I can't imagine too many people (especially interns) are in any position to willingly job hop in this economy.
yeah, I didn't even notice the dates! I was wondering why the comments didn't seem to mention how hard it was finding a job.
The link was posted on the layoffs thread. I think when the economy is stable again and firms start looking for new talent to fill empty chairs that this could become an issue again and much worse than it was in 06-07. The issue of loyalty cuts both ways and firms that dumped their loyal interns to snatch up star talent might be left jilted when the economy picks up and talent jumps ship for what ever reasons drive those moves.
How can firms keep their talent that they took risk to acquire during this labor fire sale that is going on right now?
http://www.archinect.com/forum/threads.php?id=81575_800_42_0
Block this user
Are you sure you want to block this user and hide all related comments throughout the site?
Archinect
This is your first comment on Archinect. Your comment will be visible once approved.