A tad late to the thread, but here's another perspective from someone who has the lovely job of working within the A&D community for...ahem....22 years. Not that there's anything wrong with getting older.
This is a very good thread and could’ve been written by myself and my professional colleagues 20 years ago. But we didn’t have the Internet then, so we just spread our disagreements out over the grapevine and in person with each other.
Now comes the 3rd perspective – I’m an owner of a contract furniture dealership who provides “interior design†services. We do NOT provide any semblance of architectural work, and I personally will break the news to a client that they need a licensed, registered architect. Most of the local IDs around here will simply attempt the work, and then let the devil take the hindmost. Hence my lack of respect for most IDs, and my unending respect for qualified Architects.
My company is in the business of selling high end business interior products, that’s where we make our profit dollars. Cubicles are not where the big bucks are to be found, though that is the common misperception. I happen to dislike ALL the major panel systems though admit they’re a necessary evil. I’ve been personally trained in Steelcase for 2 decades now, though of the top 3 system manufacturers, they’re the least exciting [but the most honest].
As a contract furniture dealer, we provide interior design services because many clients are afraid of hiring and then being ripped off by an Interior Decorator/Designer [however they’re licensed or accredited]. Many of my clients are Fortune 500 and many are huge health care providers. I do not waste my time or resources on government work of any sort – I happen to like being paid in a timely manner and government doesn’t believe in that concept. Surprisingly, I’m often the first person a new client meets with when it becomes painfully obvious to them that the “facilities dept.†or the bosses wives can’t design worth a dime, and they need to find someone who knows the ropes.
I’m happy to work with Architectural firms, not happy to work with ID firms – the IDs all want kick-backs in the form of money and they all want, literally, that free lunch. Over and over and over. Personally I detest pay-offs and I can assure you, so do the major manufacturers. Sure, they’ll fork over something, but not because they want do so. It’s a well known area of ethical violation if you ask me. I’ve walked away from $1MM projects when the design firm demanded a large percentage of our profits merely because WE specified their client’s project and redesigned it to actually work in the given space, and they want to double-dip so much, it becomes unprofitable for us to work with them.
If most clients knew this revolting practice was rampant amongst design firms, the clients would likely protest. Not wanting to be the proverbial messenger, I refrain from clueing in the clients, as negativity doesn’t do my company any good. If a design firm is involved in a project before I get to it, I do serious number crunching and hassles involved analysis before we go any further. We’ve been burned once too often by IDs who’re dishonest and golden-tongued liars.
I have a little something special to my background too – my mother is a licensed [for what it’s worth] ID and has taken extensive Arch. Classes over the years, and yet, she’s basically an interior decorator. Like Martha Stewart, she had good taste but is clueless about architecture, engineering and what it takes to actually build something. I was also married for 27 yrs to a general contractor, so I know a bit about building commercial structures and the liability issues. Designers often don’t give a fig about liability, nor safety. Including my own mother. She has her own firm for over 30 years, and employs at least one very experienced Architect full time.
I attended my first NEOCON when I was 12 yrs old [that was ‘back in the day’ of Par-TAY hardy and freely flowing liquor and food and circus like milieu at the Mart]. I decided to get my degree in BUSINESS instead of design, primarily because I couldn’t stand the idea of playing a Diva as my own Mom had done for years with her clients. Those clients were and are a mix of residential and business clients, many of them uber-well heeled, some famous.
Being a bit more than slightly creative myself, I happened to enjoy the space-planning, specifying and glorified shopping that goes on with most interior projects including for contract clients. I possess an enormous capacity for details when it comes to products, and keep up with the latest technologies and trends in materials, including green design and ADA issues [not that many clients care, let me assure you!]
I have never done a single residential project, and hope to God I never will. I can’t stand all the frou-frou associated with the majority of IDs, nor much of the hideousness that many, if not all, pass off as ‘designed spaces’. Personally, I’d ban from the planet all forms of flowery fabrics, wall-coverings and those demonic ‘faux finishes’. I’m a clean uncluttered kind of woman, and can’t abide frilly nonsense. Areas at which my own Mom excels, and which has paid her handsome rewards. She lives far better than most Architects ever will, I can assure you, dear readers.
My personal preference at this point is that I truly enjoy working with the Architects, basically detest working with any Interior Designers/Decorators [which is an interchangeable term in my mind w/good reason]. IDs are frequently living embodiments of their stereotypes, made all the more real for the public by television shows featuring obnoxious know-it-alls who are talentless hacks. I can prove this point in the real world by demonstrating how terribly not difficult it is to provide good quality design work with a modicum of training [I’ve been trained in space-planning, attended dozens of manufacturer seminars and weeks-long training sessions at Steelcase, Haworth, HM and many others]. I’ve personally designed umpteen business interiors, including done the drawings by hand and CAD, provided conceptual space-planning, done all the specifying and of course, selling of interior products.
Not one single client of the many has ever requested of me to provide them a “licensed†ID, but I’ve personally instructed many clients to hire a licensed, experienced Architect. Because most of these otherwise smart business people have been trained like seals to believe that moving a major structural element is easy to do! I blame that on the lack of education of the public done by Architects, and RAs allowing IDs to fill the void with fluff and gobbledygook.
I’ve had many conversations with clients [such as The Gap execs – the big guns, not the regional guys] with me insisting that a knowledgeable Architect be hired forthwith. I keep handy names and numbers of those in the architectural field whom I know are honest, ethical and very good at what they do. I do not tack on any sort of kick-back. I do insist on professional courtesy and have been lucky enough to receive it back. I do not know a single ID in this town [a large-ish East Coast city] who’d do a single thing without demanding a financial kick-back or incentive that costs other professionals directly out of their pockets. In addition to all the wining and dining they expect, IDs are frequently in my experience, greedy beyond all belief. One ID firm insists we only cater lunches from a 5 star caterer, and then they turn around and stiff us by shutting us out as a dealer when it comes time to bid, unless we’ve agreed to pay the percentage of our profits to them. You don’t think clients know about that, do you, dear readers? Pulease.
That is the difference between projects I produce and those IDs seek to produce: I know the differences between the disciplines, clients do not, and I know when to seek out professional help with life safety issues, when most IDs will simply prevaricate and go ahead. I’ve personally known several prominent designers in my town who’ve caused major structural damage to client spaces or buildings, costing them enormous sums of money to rectify and yet not even one such incompetent ID has been sued. I find that sort of behavior unconscionable. And these same designers will defame dealers up and down the street, while their hands are secretly inside our pockets.
As a dealer, I’m in the business to make money. I don’t do this for the glory, nor to fulfill some deep-seated desire to ‘create’ a nice space so as to leave my mark on the world. I love beautiful spaces with a passion, but I look at projects firstly in terms of profit margins. My other passion is making sure that employees aren’t crippled by lousy furniture, not that anyone else ever seems to care. So yes, it’s true: I happen to be a business person firstly and someone who was blessed with a good eye for color and good taste. I have encyclopedic knowledge of products across the board, and represent the top lines. I’ve done well in a “man’s world†among dealers. Trade-persons love me because I’m fair, competent and bring them work they otherwise would’ve struggled to secure. Same for the Architects I’ve worked with over the years.
By contrast, the IDs whom I’ve had the displeasure of working with have been uniformly detestable headcases, greedy, pathological liars, downright dangerously incompetent and in at least 2 cases, willing to steal the work of others [architects] and claim it as their own!! The two most high profile IDs in this town are both horrendous unethical women meeting all the low criteria laid out herein. One goes about to a local hoity-toity country club to secure business and residential clients, while handing off the work to interns but claiming she personally did the work. One local ID school has had such bad reports on her firm, they stopped allowing students to intern there. Her work can best be described as excretory. She practices architecture without a license, and has costs many clients big dollars to remedy her screw-ups. And, she’s a drunk.
The other unethical ID uses religious connections to secure clients and is openly a racist. She has a horrendous reputation amongst trade people, who can share their own horror stories working her firm. This ID has gone so far as to list in her client brochures and materials the work of a very nice, talented Architect I know well, and when confronted on it, told him to sue her if he wanted her to cease and desist! This woman has been named a business woman of the year around here, and I just weep at the idea of it. Needless to say, unless my company is willing to give her a substantial cut of our profits, and we aren’t, we don’t have access to any of the projects she’s hired to specify and “designâ€. She’s defamed many people within the larger industry, including myself. She’s a living bane on the business community and clients at large.
I’m happy to work with most architectural firms, even though they too treat us as red-headed stepchildren. However, we often know far more about the products and materials, and are consulted without any assurances of having a shot at the project. Therefore, I’ve come to limit our advice to the very generic, unless I have an agreement in writing with the Architectural firm that we’re going to be given a fair shake at the client’s project in terms of bids and fairness. What I’ve discovered is that relationship building and cooperation trump cheaper prices and ‘dime design’ offered by so-called ID firms. We bill at $95.00 an hour presently for space-planning and designing that goes beyond our first presentation of design boards. We do not provide copies of our drawings or boards so that the client can use them to shop around town to different dealers, unless the client has paid for the work at the above rate. Unfortunately, ID firms around here will often hold CDs hostage until given assurance they’ll be getting that kick-back fee. Generally speaking, I pass on those “opportunities†as in the past, we’ve ended up having to correct a myriad of gross mistakes by essentially redesigning and specifying the entire project.
Oh the stories I could tell about IDs, and the few negative I can relate about Architects. Suffice to say, IDs are a PITA and I could do without if I had my way. I admit it, I have strong contempt for most IDs and their ideas of ‘design’ and how they conduct business. I've never yet met one who I'd considering hiring, if that means anything. I can't say the same for most Architects. Thankfully.
Treekiller - Yes! Thanks for the compliment BTW. I think having been immersed in so many aspects of A&D, and even engineering w/my EX, has given me a unique perspective.
I should point out that as a dealer in the business primarily of selling stuff, versus providing design work [we do project mgmt, installs, etc.], we're driven to only provide product that actually works well. And lasts. And doesn't cost so much the client runs to Office Depot or IKEA. Yet my other abiding dislike is of sales people. Most of the top manufacturers do hire young people who have good manners, understand business protocols and who follow up on promises. Most dealers on the other hand, do not. Many are akin to used car salespersons in terms of temperament and character [or lack thereof]. Dealers wedded to the likes of Herman Miller & Haworth & Steelcase for example, are so driven by the lash of numbers [sales] they can't be bothered with discussing creative design with contract clients. I've managed to squeeze into the niche and or void created by their master/slave deal with the big manufacturers. In my town, several of these IDs have hooked their wagons to these dealers, and will only spec that product line, regardless of fit or suitability. Few will bother with custom work.
The one thing I love about architects and their firms in general is their eschewing of this voluntary enslavement to a product manufacturer. That is something far more IDs need, but I don't forsee anything changing as there's a huge financial incentive for IDs to align themselves w/powerful dealers. For instance, in my geographic area, there is ONE, only one, HM dealer for a 150 mile radius. They've been the only authorized dealer forever. Each year I go to NEOCON, I enjoy the Herman Miller showroom, then realize that most clients in our area will never see the innovative designs the product line boasts as this dealer is run by tired old men who hire other good old boys like themselves to sell the product. Few client projects I've seen ever reflected the highly stylized interiors capable of being achieved with that product line. And that's because the IDs are in the pockets of the dealer, who is beholden to the manufacturer to crank out the numbers, not the 'designs'.
i could tell stories about unethical fcuked up architects.
would be as specious and apocryphal as the above. hopefully not as personal.
maybe you simply aren't playing in the right league yet. i still can't help but think that this lady is the standard setter, not the run down old lady who can't spec all that delicious herman miller product you wanna sell. still seems a turf thing to me. petra ain't trying to deal with structures, but i'll bet she is on the project the same time as the structural work is going on. and the architect absolutely listens to her. cuz she is good. wanna bet she doesn't give a rat's ass about herman miller?
Scandanavian design is often trend-setting and blows away competition. Our European & off shore competitors frequently provide unique aesthetics intended to awe inspire. Artists of this grandeur often don't work with boring old corporations. I did have Outokumpu as a client, a Finnish company, and they were willing to allow me to work outside the box of Blah on their large regional office space. Interesting to me insofar as they're rather dull engineers.
Cutting edge clients like Prada [Petra's client] are not only far and few between for most A&D firms, these clients and who they hire happen to occupy a stratosphere of design excellence few architects OR designers will ever achieve, no matter what league they're in over the length of their careers.
And yet. I'm sure that Prada has offices somewhere with boring old computers, with regular human beings sitting at their speckled faux granite worksurfaces, staring into flat panel monitors, performing the behind the scenes worker bee work necessary for Prada the brand to reach it's intended market. The cubicles may not be what you see when you visit Prada's business offices, but chances are very high they're using a product like HM. Designers such as Petra Blaisse don't bother with the boring work - they're all about the mindblowing exhibition and are hired for that effect. Ms. Blaisse is primarily an artist - most IDs are not. Apples & Oranges, jump, sorry to deflate your ire.
As for being a 'run down old lady', punk, something informs me that I'd be as capable of literally running you into the ground as I was 20 yrs ago. Some of us are blessed with an EverReady battery energy level, and are as sharp as tacks, probably moreso as being over 40 can release us from the need to kiss any asses [as you younger folks must do]. It's nice to be able to unleash the inner snark and watch the various reactions [usually positive].
FYI: We can sell HM if I'd like - there are levels of dealing and deal making that most A&Ds haven't got a clue about amongst the dealers. I'm happy there are Petra Blaisse types in this world, they make life interesting and colorful for the rest of us non-artists.
The fact that Jump's example is a Scandanavian/Euro should not to be overlooked. My experiences are mainly grounded in dealing with fellow Americans. Americans haven't cornered the market on design innovation, radical conceptual ideas and execution of those ideas. Germany, Sweden, Norway, Finland, Iceland, Denmark, the Netherlands - these countries have thriving design communities in many fields and export their excellence via dozens, nay, hundreds of cool, outstanding products.
I just purchased a pair of ProDesign Denmark specs. The crap offered by American designers of products as simple seeming as eye glasses - well, this country better get off it's ass and stop cranking out mediocrity and bad attitude.
i wasn't calling YOU a run down old lady (i AM canadian; that ain't in my dna). i was paraphrasing your description of the interior designer who couldn't use the herman miller goods you want to sell (cuz of some kinda hank panky with the supplier if i understand your description correctly)... sorry if my english isn't correct. i only speak the language half of the time, if lucky. danger of life of as an expat. i have spent most of the last 15 years overseas and my english is getting progressivley wonkier and wonkier...
but i still don't believe you can judge id as a profession based on your difficulties with a few (or even a hundred) crappy interior designers. i am very good friends with some folks who aspire to be like petra blaisse so i can't understand this generalisation, that the lowest common denominator is the real deal. that would be like deciding the value of architects based on superstores, strip malls and other chaffe; by far the most common type of building erected, even here in japan.
cuz the question being discussed isn't whether there is a range of interior design quality, but rather whether the interior design business has any value at all. suprisingly most of the architects here, and you yourself, have shockingly little respect for a reasonable profession. and i can't understand that. cuz while i have worked with not so good designers in both architecture and interior design i don't think it is useful to start out on any venture believing that an entire profession has nothing to offer. ok, so those 2 women you love to hate, maybe i dont work with them, but still i gotta say interior designers have a role.
you could be right about location. i work in london and tokyo so my experience may be quite different from yorn.
Does it usually work for you to hate so much on your clientele…fashionplate? You seem like a vendor I’d avoid like the name-dropping, self-promoter at some corporate benefit party. Try changing YOUR attitude and the IDs in your little town might give you more business…maybe then you can get that Christmas bonus and your name in the company newsletter.
Okay, I'll chip my experience has been widely varied with Interior Designers through the years, Mostly high end residential. but I will attest that I have two perople who trust implicitly with pulling it off and making me and the home look way better than I am. I have had terrible experiences but once I locked into "good" designers ( Interior or Architects ) they were very impressive.
In every profession, there are geniuses and there are hacks, and the fact of the matter is, the majority of practitioners probably fall somewhere in between. While it's unfortunate, sooner or later we'll all end up working with someone who makes our life hell. That said, the animosity so many architects seem to have towards designers in general is a bit scary - and often unwarranted. As this thread has shown, there are plenty of architects who don't even know what designers "do." But they hate them anyway! What gives?
I think there are a variety of reasons for the negative attitude. Certainly, it is problematic that there's so little oversight of the design field and any yahoo with a fan deck, degreed or not, can claim to be a "designer." I absolutely agree that that is a problem. But also problematic is the way that so many architecture schools encourage the "architect is god" mentality. It's so pervasive that even lowly third year students without a lick of real world experience are all too willing to spit on anyone not holding a degree ending in the letters "arch."
I guess what I would like to know is what is so wrong with specialization? How is focusing one's talents and energies on interiors any different pursuing a career in landscape architecture, residential architecture, commercial architecture or urban planning? Most architects are not generalists these days - at the very least, the firms they work for concentrate on one aspect of construction - hospitatity projects, or residental design, for example. In this modern world of ours - specialization is everywhere - it's increasingly difficult to function as a jack of all trades. If most of us will ultimately have to choose a speciality, wouldn't you agree that there is something to be said for following one's bliss? If interiors really light your fire, what exactly is the point of spending your days calculating loads or drafting roof and downspout details? And if you're like many of my architect friends who are all about structure and have little patience for things like carpeting or switchplate covers, then why the resentment toward those of us who are actually interested in doing the work you have no interest in?
I'm not trying to piss anyone off here - it's just really frustrating to hear over and over again from certain architects just how much interior deisgners suck, whether they actually know any, or have any understanding of a deisgner's function. (Many thanks to those of you who have been brave enough to admit that you know a few us who have done a decent job now and again.)
As for me - I started out in architecture school - at IIT, if it matters. I changed majors after my sophomore year. It wasn't that I didn't love architecture (I still do), it's just that as time went on, I found myself less and less interested in creating new buildings and more and more passionate about preserving historic structures and creating dynamic interior spaces - neither of which got tons of play at IIT. I went on to graduate with a BFA in Interior Design and don't regret it for a second. I graduated back in the 90s and have had my own design and restoration business for about six years now. For the most part, it's been fantastic. I hope that over the years, I have proven that I'm not a total hack, but respect is still hard to come by. Earlier this year I restored a local Art Moderne theater to its orginal 1940s glory. Several local architects attended the opening night gala. One, a friend of theater's owners, told me that he was skeptical when his friends told him they'd hired an interior deisgner rather than an architect "but you actually pulled it off." Um... thanks, I guess. Another told the theater's owners "The only reason I came here tonight was to rip this place apart, but I can't. The attention to detail is incredible. I can't believe a interior designer did this." A third told me "I've been waiting to meet you all night. I was an architect for 13 years and finally changed careers a few months ago. You've done something remarkable here - you've gotten your clients to trust you. It shows in the work. When a designer gains their clients' trust they can do amazing things. I wish more of my clients would have trusted me. I might still be an architect." The fourth one just made me laugh. She asked the theater's owners if they'd introduce her to their architect. They told her they used a an interior designer and were told "Oh. Really?"
Apparently, architect = good, interior designer = bad. C'est la vie.
what i have a problem with - and this is not the first time it has been brought up in the thread - is specialization. i don't think it's a good thing, and i don't think you understand why it's not good. architects may have a focus, a specialization so to speak, but it's different choice than what you make it out to be. we still need to know every other thing about architecture, even if we only do retail spaces we still need to know about the code and the relationship of uses and construction classes and structure, ada, nfpa 101, ubc, ibc, ul.....our specialization is typically relegated to project type, whereas the id's focus seemingly is not about the choice, but the limits of the profession and it's impact within the law. your specialization is due to legal limitations and not bound by choice....i think that made sense.
we are all specialized and that makes us strong generalists...
it's easier and better to have a diverse team of people who inidividually know alot about specialized things, than to have a uniformly multitalented team who each individually know a little about everything. so long as the diverse team works together well enough, and feeds that diverse knowledge openly to one another.
sighs lets work together and create a damn good design....
mmm wait a min...i thinkkkkk
they should do an exhibition.......
week 1 : exhibit architects work... *only design the building* no interiors
let the public view the works of architect...megastructure / werid structure/ or watever u guys wanna create ;)
week 2 : exhibit interior designer work * start implement the interior in the buidling*
its good to do this..and let the public see how the jobs are specialize
;)
I expose my own belly for which you can thrust your blade [my thoughts]
I worked with an ID (now called Interior Architect) for a few months. She, and oddly how it always stereotypically is a she, had left a large development company to set out on her own. She was very knowledgeable of architecture but wasn't deep in it passionate (archi-crazy) like me - yet I respected her stance. I've perhaps not learned as much about details as those precious months but I found she was a hard edge...difficult to work with but commanded a level of respect.
I've worked with some other ID/As since and really have no generalisations about them except...
1. like any other professional on a job they think their work is most important. It is my motherf*cking job - architechnophilia is king in this village (oops sorry watched 300 last night)
2. they like architects, have an awful reputation that clouds the public perception of them. Us as pencil pushers of fantastical dreams them as padded cushions
3. the work bloody hard at what they do, and you'll likely be happy with the outcome...make friends vs enemies with them...but in a fight choose the engineer to have your back
and yes I'm an architect, a jerk, and the one likely to design your dreams
SOMETIMES i wish i could be an interior designer.....i wish.....i......CUE MISTY VIDEO! scene: me, throwing a distant glance over the city...cut to me, pointing and knodding knowlingly with some exotic looking female retail robot next to a wall of well lit fabric swatches...tight view of my color pencil (fuscia) coloring in a sketchy drawing of a divan...cut to me, on the phone looking earnest and quizzical, then switching to a small laugh and another knowing knod...cut to me bent over plans with two black clothed architects, i'm wearing tan plaid pants, granny smith sweater, maybe a robust cherry scarf, i'm leading the discussion, they look at each other and knod, we shake hands, i answer the phone turn away from the knoll conference table, they continue pointing to the plans, knod some more...me, with other beautiful and impeccably and colorfully dressed people, one white men (latino?), an asian man with blonde highlights and a black woman in a huge gold scarf, eating salad (no bread) and delicately holding onto glasses of white wine, laughing gaily and clinging them at a cheers for our great fortune....we leave and pass by a closed furniture store, lights on in the front window, the camera leaves us and closes in on a framed article from a leading design magazine hung in the store window, in the article is a picture of me, sitting on the arm of a corbusier club chair, several small images of a fabulous modern yet invitingly plush house, the article entitled 'the sweet look of success'...fade to black....someday........
So remember it is true when you can build at a third the cost and even cheaper, know that what you emagine can be there in crome plated gold or titanium , the things ,houses, cars, aeroplanes Opera city block, everything you just need to remember I want my name back, Kill the Brick.
only if we didn't have to deal with the building trades or unions... then we could use indentured immigrant labors like they do in abu dhabi and our buildings would cost 1/2 of what they do today... oh, I forgot that the people using them need to get paid too and would be unemployed if we all exploited the cheap labor of the developing world!!!!!
Not without the new jobs, the mountain of money it mean, when the house only cost a third and last 400 years. Not unless realising the limitations mimicing workers at the assembly line not without the ability that is the only thing that make us the artist, to be able to master a craft and see further.
I know a lot of interior designers and have never met one professional with an interior design degree. Interns still in school or just graduated...sure. Do they disappear some place with all of the missing left socks and baby pigeons?
Bristolkid, saying that a competent interior designer could adequately design a two-story house (as you did in your first point #5) is on the same level of hubris as the people who you said you didn't want to be associated with in your second point #5. I know if I encountered an interior designer who said they could design a house just like an architect, I would really doubt they knew what they were talking about, because when have interior designers had to learn about site placement, weather protection, seismic forces, power and service requirements, etc, etc, etc...
FYI, I learned about ALL of those things in my BFA program in Interior Architecture and Design. I am an Interior Designer. Just so you know, there are programs that are not M.Arch or MFA Arch. programs that teach those things as well.
I come from an architecture background. I am on my way to becoming a licensed architect. I just passed the first of 7 architect registration exams- structural systems. It was a very difficult exam. There is no question that architecture as a profession, is a difficult field and those who try to either debunk that fact or reaffirm it, are wasting their time because that is a fact- it is difficult.
However- I will ask one simple question: say you are frank ghery or another famous architect; you design the form of the building, and resolve the spatial problems of circulation, structure, and so on. What is more important to you as an architect- the overall concept of the buildings or the details like what color to put up on the walls?
I say leave all those details like colors, furniture, and so on to the interior designers. They are the ones who are good at resolving those little details. And as far as the general building goes- designers should mind their own business.
It is my firm belief that interior designers are just like decorators. For me it is clear: decoration and interior design are synonymous. An architect can do everything else.
The simpler the building, the more time an architect can devote to the details. The more complicated the building, the more likely it is that the architect can get away with a less elegantly designed detail because that is not the focus. Allow me to elaborate. I will use thre examples to illustrate my point:
1) Mies van der Rohe's Barcelona Pavilion | Very simple buildng from a construction stand point. No complicated forms or anything. Just planes. But Mies worked out his famous chrome faced column detail and specified the specific cuts for the marble he used.
2) Peter Zumthor's Thermal Baths | A little more complicated building, but still a simple form. Like the Barcelona Pavilion, the exterior and interior almost blend seamlessly, informing the architect's choice of materials.
3) Hertzog De Meuron's Winery | This buiding contrasts with the other two because it has a well defined building envelope. There is clearly an interior and clearly an exterior, yet the interior of the space is absoluely affectd by the exterior becuase of the way light enters the space.
In conclusion, interior designers have a place in the design process when the building is banal and the exterior does not affect the interior in any way and nothing else but decoration would help it rise above a miserable place/space. Other than that, the architect can do almost everything a an interior designer can other than schmoozing his vendors for tickets to venues like Color Invasion!
One Interior Designer Fights Back
if it's any consolation i wish i had gone to medical school.
A tad late to the thread, but here's another perspective from someone who has the lovely job of working within the A&D community for...ahem....22 years. Not that there's anything wrong with getting older.
This is a very good thread and could’ve been written by myself and my professional colleagues 20 years ago. But we didn’t have the Internet then, so we just spread our disagreements out over the grapevine and in person with each other.
Now comes the 3rd perspective – I’m an owner of a contract furniture dealership who provides “interior design†services. We do NOT provide any semblance of architectural work, and I personally will break the news to a client that they need a licensed, registered architect. Most of the local IDs around here will simply attempt the work, and then let the devil take the hindmost. Hence my lack of respect for most IDs, and my unending respect for qualified Architects.
My company is in the business of selling high end business interior products, that’s where we make our profit dollars. Cubicles are not where the big bucks are to be found, though that is the common misperception. I happen to dislike ALL the major panel systems though admit they’re a necessary evil. I’ve been personally trained in Steelcase for 2 decades now, though of the top 3 system manufacturers, they’re the least exciting [but the most honest].
As a contract furniture dealer, we provide interior design services because many clients are afraid of hiring and then being ripped off by an Interior Decorator/Designer [however they’re licensed or accredited]. Many of my clients are Fortune 500 and many are huge health care providers. I do not waste my time or resources on government work of any sort – I happen to like being paid in a timely manner and government doesn’t believe in that concept. Surprisingly, I’m often the first person a new client meets with when it becomes painfully obvious to them that the “facilities dept.†or the bosses wives can’t design worth a dime, and they need to find someone who knows the ropes.
I’m happy to work with Architectural firms, not happy to work with ID firms – the IDs all want kick-backs in the form of money and they all want, literally, that free lunch. Over and over and over. Personally I detest pay-offs and I can assure you, so do the major manufacturers. Sure, they’ll fork over something, but not because they want do so. It’s a well known area of ethical violation if you ask me. I’ve walked away from $1MM projects when the design firm demanded a large percentage of our profits merely because WE specified their client’s project and redesigned it to actually work in the given space, and they want to double-dip so much, it becomes unprofitable for us to work with them.
If most clients knew this revolting practice was rampant amongst design firms, the clients would likely protest. Not wanting to be the proverbial messenger, I refrain from clueing in the clients, as negativity doesn’t do my company any good. If a design firm is involved in a project before I get to it, I do serious number crunching and hassles involved analysis before we go any further. We’ve been burned once too often by IDs who’re dishonest and golden-tongued liars.
I have a little something special to my background too – my mother is a licensed [for what it’s worth] ID and has taken extensive Arch. Classes over the years, and yet, she’s basically an interior decorator. Like Martha Stewart, she had good taste but is clueless about architecture, engineering and what it takes to actually build something. I was also married for 27 yrs to a general contractor, so I know a bit about building commercial structures and the liability issues. Designers often don’t give a fig about liability, nor safety. Including my own mother. She has her own firm for over 30 years, and employs at least one very experienced Architect full time.
I attended my first NEOCON when I was 12 yrs old [that was ‘back in the day’ of Par-TAY hardy and freely flowing liquor and food and circus like milieu at the Mart]. I decided to get my degree in BUSINESS instead of design, primarily because I couldn’t stand the idea of playing a Diva as my own Mom had done for years with her clients. Those clients were and are a mix of residential and business clients, many of them uber-well heeled, some famous.
Being a bit more than slightly creative myself, I happened to enjoy the space-planning, specifying and glorified shopping that goes on with most interior projects including for contract clients. I possess an enormous capacity for details when it comes to products, and keep up with the latest technologies and trends in materials, including green design and ADA issues [not that many clients care, let me assure you!]
I have never done a single residential project, and hope to God I never will. I can’t stand all the frou-frou associated with the majority of IDs, nor much of the hideousness that many, if not all, pass off as ‘designed spaces’. Personally, I’d ban from the planet all forms of flowery fabrics, wall-coverings and those demonic ‘faux finishes’. I’m a clean uncluttered kind of woman, and can’t abide frilly nonsense. Areas at which my own Mom excels, and which has paid her handsome rewards. She lives far better than most Architects ever will, I can assure you, dear readers.
My personal preference at this point is that I truly enjoy working with the Architects, basically detest working with any Interior Designers/Decorators [which is an interchangeable term in my mind w/good reason]. IDs are frequently living embodiments of their stereotypes, made all the more real for the public by television shows featuring obnoxious know-it-alls who are talentless hacks. I can prove this point in the real world by demonstrating how terribly not difficult it is to provide good quality design work with a modicum of training [I’ve been trained in space-planning, attended dozens of manufacturer seminars and weeks-long training sessions at Steelcase, Haworth, HM and many others]. I’ve personally designed umpteen business interiors, including done the drawings by hand and CAD, provided conceptual space-planning, done all the specifying and of course, selling of interior products.
Not one single client of the many has ever requested of me to provide them a “licensed†ID, but I’ve personally instructed many clients to hire a licensed, experienced Architect. Because most of these otherwise smart business people have been trained like seals to believe that moving a major structural element is easy to do! I blame that on the lack of education of the public done by Architects, and RAs allowing IDs to fill the void with fluff and gobbledygook.
I’ve had many conversations with clients [such as The Gap execs – the big guns, not the regional guys] with me insisting that a knowledgeable Architect be hired forthwith. I keep handy names and numbers of those in the architectural field whom I know are honest, ethical and very good at what they do. I do not tack on any sort of kick-back. I do insist on professional courtesy and have been lucky enough to receive it back. I do not know a single ID in this town [a large-ish East Coast city] who’d do a single thing without demanding a financial kick-back or incentive that costs other professionals directly out of their pockets. In addition to all the wining and dining they expect, IDs are frequently in my experience, greedy beyond all belief. One ID firm insists we only cater lunches from a 5 star caterer, and then they turn around and stiff us by shutting us out as a dealer when it comes time to bid, unless we’ve agreed to pay the percentage of our profits to them. You don’t think clients know about that, do you, dear readers? Pulease.
That is the difference between projects I produce and those IDs seek to produce: I know the differences between the disciplines, clients do not, and I know when to seek out professional help with life safety issues, when most IDs will simply prevaricate and go ahead. I’ve personally known several prominent designers in my town who’ve caused major structural damage to client spaces or buildings, costing them enormous sums of money to rectify and yet not even one such incompetent ID has been sued. I find that sort of behavior unconscionable. And these same designers will defame dealers up and down the street, while their hands are secretly inside our pockets.
As a dealer, I’m in the business to make money. I don’t do this for the glory, nor to fulfill some deep-seated desire to ‘create’ a nice space so as to leave my mark on the world. I love beautiful spaces with a passion, but I look at projects firstly in terms of profit margins. My other passion is making sure that employees aren’t crippled by lousy furniture, not that anyone else ever seems to care. So yes, it’s true: I happen to be a business person firstly and someone who was blessed with a good eye for color and good taste. I have encyclopedic knowledge of products across the board, and represent the top lines. I’ve done well in a “man’s world†among dealers. Trade-persons love me because I’m fair, competent and bring them work they otherwise would’ve struggled to secure. Same for the Architects I’ve worked with over the years.
By contrast, the IDs whom I’ve had the displeasure of working with have been uniformly detestable headcases, greedy, pathological liars, downright dangerously incompetent and in at least 2 cases, willing to steal the work of others [architects] and claim it as their own!! The two most high profile IDs in this town are both horrendous unethical women meeting all the low criteria laid out herein. One goes about to a local hoity-toity country club to secure business and residential clients, while handing off the work to interns but claiming she personally did the work. One local ID school has had such bad reports on her firm, they stopped allowing students to intern there. Her work can best be described as excretory. She practices architecture without a license, and has costs many clients big dollars to remedy her screw-ups. And, she’s a drunk.
The other unethical ID uses religious connections to secure clients and is openly a racist. She has a horrendous reputation amongst trade people, who can share their own horror stories working her firm. This ID has gone so far as to list in her client brochures and materials the work of a very nice, talented Architect I know well, and when confronted on it, told him to sue her if he wanted her to cease and desist! This woman has been named a business woman of the year around here, and I just weep at the idea of it. Needless to say, unless my company is willing to give her a substantial cut of our profits, and we aren’t, we don’t have access to any of the projects she’s hired to specify and “designâ€. She’s defamed many people within the larger industry, including myself. She’s a living bane on the business community and clients at large.
I’m happy to work with most architectural firms, even though they too treat us as red-headed stepchildren. However, we often know far more about the products and materials, and are consulted without any assurances of having a shot at the project. Therefore, I’ve come to limit our advice to the very generic, unless I have an agreement in writing with the Architectural firm that we’re going to be given a fair shake at the client’s project in terms of bids and fairness. What I’ve discovered is that relationship building and cooperation trump cheaper prices and ‘dime design’ offered by so-called ID firms. We bill at $95.00 an hour presently for space-planning and designing that goes beyond our first presentation of design boards. We do not provide copies of our drawings or boards so that the client can use them to shop around town to different dealers, unless the client has paid for the work at the above rate. Unfortunately, ID firms around here will often hold CDs hostage until given assurance they’ll be getting that kick-back fee. Generally speaking, I pass on those “opportunities†as in the past, we’ve ended up having to correct a myriad of gross mistakes by essentially redesigning and specifying the entire project.
Oh the stories I could tell about IDs, and the few negative I can relate about Architects. Suffice to say, IDs are a PITA and I could do without if I had my way. I admit it, I have strong contempt for most IDs and their ideas of ‘design’ and how they conduct business. I've never yet met one who I'd considering hiring, if that means anything. I can't say the same for most Architects. Thankfully.
FP
FP-
Welcome to archinect! you just provided one of the longest and most poetic introductory posts I've read!!!! Kudos!
So was that 22 years of catharsis waiting to be expunged?
wow.
Treekiller - Yes! Thanks for the compliment BTW. I think having been immersed in so many aspects of A&D, and even engineering w/my EX, has given me a unique perspective.
I should point out that as a dealer in the business primarily of selling stuff, versus providing design work [we do project mgmt, installs, etc.], we're driven to only provide product that actually works well. And lasts. And doesn't cost so much the client runs to Office Depot or IKEA. Yet my other abiding dislike is of sales people. Most of the top manufacturers do hire young people who have good manners, understand business protocols and who follow up on promises. Most dealers on the other hand, do not. Many are akin to used car salespersons in terms of temperament and character [or lack thereof]. Dealers wedded to the likes of Herman Miller & Haworth & Steelcase for example, are so driven by the lash of numbers [sales] they can't be bothered with discussing creative design with contract clients. I've managed to squeeze into the niche and or void created by their master/slave deal with the big manufacturers. In my town, several of these IDs have hooked their wagons to these dealers, and will only spec that product line, regardless of fit or suitability. Few will bother with custom work.
The one thing I love about architects and their firms in general is their eschewing of this voluntary enslavement to a product manufacturer. That is something far more IDs need, but I don't forsee anything changing as there's a huge financial incentive for IDs to align themselves w/powerful dealers. For instance, in my geographic area, there is ONE, only one, HM dealer for a 150 mile radius. They've been the only authorized dealer forever. Each year I go to NEOCON, I enjoy the Herman Miller showroom, then realize that most clients in our area will never see the innovative designs the product line boasts as this dealer is run by tired old men who hire other good old boys like themselves to sell the product. Few client projects I've seen ever reflected the highly stylized interiors capable of being achieved with that product line. And that's because the IDs are in the pockets of the dealer, who is beholden to the manufacturer to crank out the numbers, not the 'designs'.
Kinda sad really.
FP
i could tell stories about unethical fcuked up architects.
would be as specious and apocryphal as the above. hopefully not as personal.
maybe you simply aren't playing in the right league yet. i still can't help but think that this lady is the standard setter, not the run down old lady who can't spec all that delicious herman miller product you wanna sell. still seems a turf thing to me. petra ain't trying to deal with structures, but i'll bet she is on the project the same time as the structural work is going on. and the architect absolutely listens to her. cuz she is good. wanna bet she doesn't give a rat's ass about herman miller?
Scandanavian design is often trend-setting and blows away competition. Our European & off shore competitors frequently provide unique aesthetics intended to awe inspire. Artists of this grandeur often don't work with boring old corporations. I did have Outokumpu as a client, a Finnish company, and they were willing to allow me to work outside the box of Blah on their large regional office space. Interesting to me insofar as they're rather dull engineers.
Cutting edge clients like Prada [Petra's client] are not only far and few between for most A&D firms, these clients and who they hire happen to occupy a stratosphere of design excellence few architects OR designers will ever achieve, no matter what league they're in over the length of their careers.
And yet. I'm sure that Prada has offices somewhere with boring old computers, with regular human beings sitting at their speckled faux granite worksurfaces, staring into flat panel monitors, performing the behind the scenes worker bee work necessary for Prada the brand to reach it's intended market. The cubicles may not be what you see when you visit Prada's business offices, but chances are very high they're using a product like HM. Designers such as Petra Blaisse don't bother with the boring work - they're all about the mindblowing exhibition and are hired for that effect. Ms. Blaisse is primarily an artist - most IDs are not. Apples & Oranges, jump, sorry to deflate your ire.
As for being a 'run down old lady', punk, something informs me that I'd be as capable of literally running you into the ground as I was 20 yrs ago. Some of us are blessed with an EverReady battery energy level, and are as sharp as tacks, probably moreso as being over 40 can release us from the need to kiss any asses [as you younger folks must do]. It's nice to be able to unleash the inner snark and watch the various reactions [usually positive].
FYI: We can sell HM if I'd like - there are levels of dealing and deal making that most A&Ds haven't got a clue about amongst the dealers. I'm happy there are Petra Blaisse types in this world, they make life interesting and colorful for the rest of us non-artists.
The fact that Jump's example is a Scandanavian/Euro should not to be overlooked. My experiences are mainly grounded in dealing with fellow Americans. Americans haven't cornered the market on design innovation, radical conceptual ideas and execution of those ideas. Germany, Sweden, Norway, Finland, Iceland, Denmark, the Netherlands - these countries have thriving design communities in many fields and export their excellence via dozens, nay, hundreds of cool, outstanding products.
I just purchased a pair of ProDesign Denmark specs. The crap offered by American designers of products as simple seeming as eye glasses - well, this country better get off it's ass and stop cranking out mediocrity and bad attitude.
Signed,
Not So Much a Run Down Old Lady
FP
lol
i wasn't calling YOU a run down old lady (i AM canadian; that ain't in my dna). i was paraphrasing your description of the interior designer who couldn't use the herman miller goods you want to sell (cuz of some kinda hank panky with the supplier if i understand your description correctly)... sorry if my english isn't correct. i only speak the language half of the time, if lucky. danger of life of as an expat. i have spent most of the last 15 years overseas and my english is getting progressivley wonkier and wonkier...
but i still don't believe you can judge id as a profession based on your difficulties with a few (or even a hundred) crappy interior designers. i am very good friends with some folks who aspire to be like petra blaisse so i can't understand this generalisation, that the lowest common denominator is the real deal. that would be like deciding the value of architects based on superstores, strip malls and other chaffe; by far the most common type of building erected, even here in japan.
cuz the question being discussed isn't whether there is a range of interior design quality, but rather whether the interior design business has any value at all. suprisingly most of the architects here, and you yourself, have shockingly little respect for a reasonable profession. and i can't understand that. cuz while i have worked with not so good designers in both architecture and interior design i don't think it is useful to start out on any venture believing that an entire profession has nothing to offer. ok, so those 2 women you love to hate, maybe i dont work with them, but still i gotta say interior designers have a role.
you could be right about location. i work in london and tokyo so my experience may be quite different from yorn.
Does it usually work for you to hate so much on your clientele…fashionplate? You seem like a vendor I’d avoid like the name-dropping, self-promoter at some corporate benefit party. Try changing YOUR attitude and the IDs in your little town might give you more business…maybe then you can get that Christmas bonus and your name in the company newsletter.
FashionPlate:
You sound exactly like a guy in my office.
He also claims that the Interior Design field is run by the
Homosexual Mafia.
So, is architecture run by the Metrosexual Mafia?
Okay, I'll chip my experience has been widely varied with Interior Designers through the years, Mostly high end residential. but I will attest that I have two perople who trust implicitly with pulling it off and making me and the home look way better than I am. I have had terrible experiences but once I locked into "good" designers ( Interior or Architects ) they were very impressive.
In every profession, there are geniuses and there are hacks, and the fact of the matter is, the majority of practitioners probably fall somewhere in between. While it's unfortunate, sooner or later we'll all end up working with someone who makes our life hell. That said, the animosity so many architects seem to have towards designers in general is a bit scary - and often unwarranted. As this thread has shown, there are plenty of architects who don't even know what designers "do." But they hate them anyway! What gives?
I think there are a variety of reasons for the negative attitude. Certainly, it is problematic that there's so little oversight of the design field and any yahoo with a fan deck, degreed or not, can claim to be a "designer." I absolutely agree that that is a problem. But also problematic is the way that so many architecture schools encourage the "architect is god" mentality. It's so pervasive that even lowly third year students without a lick of real world experience are all too willing to spit on anyone not holding a degree ending in the letters "arch."
I guess what I would like to know is what is so wrong with specialization? How is focusing one's talents and energies on interiors any different pursuing a career in landscape architecture, residential architecture, commercial architecture or urban planning? Most architects are not generalists these days - at the very least, the firms they work for concentrate on one aspect of construction - hospitatity projects, or residental design, for example. In this modern world of ours - specialization is everywhere - it's increasingly difficult to function as a jack of all trades. If most of us will ultimately have to choose a speciality, wouldn't you agree that there is something to be said for following one's bliss? If interiors really light your fire, what exactly is the point of spending your days calculating loads or drafting roof and downspout details? And if you're like many of my architect friends who are all about structure and have little patience for things like carpeting or switchplate covers, then why the resentment toward those of us who are actually interested in doing the work you have no interest in?
I'm not trying to piss anyone off here - it's just really frustrating to hear over and over again from certain architects just how much interior deisgners suck, whether they actually know any, or have any understanding of a deisgner's function. (Many thanks to those of you who have been brave enough to admit that you know a few us who have done a decent job now and again.)
As for me - I started out in architecture school - at IIT, if it matters. I changed majors after my sophomore year. It wasn't that I didn't love architecture (I still do), it's just that as time went on, I found myself less and less interested in creating new buildings and more and more passionate about preserving historic structures and creating dynamic interior spaces - neither of which got tons of play at IIT. I went on to graduate with a BFA in Interior Design and don't regret it for a second. I graduated back in the 90s and have had my own design and restoration business for about six years now. For the most part, it's been fantastic. I hope that over the years, I have proven that I'm not a total hack, but respect is still hard to come by. Earlier this year I restored a local Art Moderne theater to its orginal 1940s glory. Several local architects attended the opening night gala. One, a friend of theater's owners, told me that he was skeptical when his friends told him they'd hired an interior deisgner rather than an architect "but you actually pulled it off." Um... thanks, I guess. Another told the theater's owners "The only reason I came here tonight was to rip this place apart, but I can't. The attention to detail is incredible. I can't believe a interior designer did this." A third told me "I've been waiting to meet you all night. I was an architect for 13 years and finally changed careers a few months ago. You've done something remarkable here - you've gotten your clients to trust you. It shows in the work. When a designer gains their clients' trust they can do amazing things. I wish more of my clients would have trusted me. I might still be an architect." The fourth one just made me laugh. She asked the theater's owners if they'd introduce her to their architect. They told her they used a an interior designer and were told "Oh. Really?"
Apparently, architect = good, interior designer = bad. C'est la vie.
what i have a problem with - and this is not the first time it has been brought up in the thread - is specialization. i don't think it's a good thing, and i don't think you understand why it's not good. architects may have a focus, a specialization so to speak, but it's different choice than what you make it out to be. we still need to know every other thing about architecture, even if we only do retail spaces we still need to know about the code and the relationship of uses and construction classes and structure, ada, nfpa 101, ubc, ibc, ul.....our specialization is typically relegated to project type, whereas the id's focus seemingly is not about the choice, but the limits of the profession and it's impact within the law. your specialization is due to legal limitations and not bound by choice....i think that made sense.
we are all specialized and that makes us strong generalists...
it's easier and better to have a diverse team of people who inidividually know alot about specialized things, than to have a uniformly multitalented team who each individually know a little about everything. so long as the diverse team works together well enough, and feeds that diverse knowledge openly to one another.
sighs lets work together and create a damn good design....
mmm wait a min...i thinkkkkk
they should do an exhibition.......
week 1 : exhibit architects work... *only design the building* no interiors
let the public view the works of architect...megastructure / werid structure/ or watever u guys wanna create ;)
week 2 : exhibit interior designer work * start implement the interior in the buidling*
its good to do this..and let the public see how the jobs are specialize
;)
I think collaboration is great, but...
Is it just me, or are people starting to romanticize collaboration?
Obviously collaboration works on some levels and in certain building types, but not all.
yeah i agree...not all *slap face..wat was i thinking* hahaha
I expose my own belly for which you can thrust your blade [my thoughts]
I worked with an ID (now called Interior Architect) for a few months. She, and oddly how it always stereotypically is a she, had left a large development company to set out on her own. She was very knowledgeable of architecture but wasn't deep in it passionate (archi-crazy) like me - yet I respected her stance. I've perhaps not learned as much about details as those precious months but I found she was a hard edge...difficult to work with but commanded a level of respect.
I've worked with some other ID/As since and really have no generalisations about them except...
1. like any other professional on a job they think their work is most important. It is my motherf*cking job - architechnophilia is king in this village (oops sorry watched 300 last night)
2. they like architects, have an awful reputation that clouds the public perception of them. Us as pencil pushers of fantastical dreams them as padded cushions
3. the work bloody hard at what they do, and you'll likely be happy with the outcome...make friends vs enemies with them...but in a fight choose the engineer to have your back
and yes I'm an architect, a jerk, and the one likely to design your dreams
and I agree with puddles on the scotch bit...
shall I send a bottle over...name yer poison mi lad
SOMETIMES i wish i could be an interior designer.....i wish.....i......CUE MISTY VIDEO! scene: me, throwing a distant glance over the city...cut to me, pointing and knodding knowlingly with some exotic looking female retail robot next to a wall of well lit fabric swatches...tight view of my color pencil (fuscia) coloring in a sketchy drawing of a divan...cut to me, on the phone looking earnest and quizzical, then switching to a small laugh and another knowing knod...cut to me bent over plans with two black clothed architects, i'm wearing tan plaid pants, granny smith sweater, maybe a robust cherry scarf, i'm leading the discussion, they look at each other and knod, we shake hands, i answer the phone turn away from the knoll conference table, they continue pointing to the plans, knod some more...me, with other beautiful and impeccably and colorfully dressed people, one white men (latino?), an asian man with blonde highlights and a black woman in a huge gold scarf, eating salad (no bread) and delicately holding onto glasses of white wine, laughing gaily and clinging them at a cheers for our great fortune....we leave and pass by a closed furniture store, lights on in the front window, the camera leaves us and closes in on a framed article from a leading design magazine hung in the store window, in the article is a picture of me, sitting on the arm of a corbusier club chair, several small images of a fabulous modern yet invitingly plush house, the article entitled 'the sweet look of success'...fade to black....someday........
So remember it is true when you can build at a third the cost and even cheaper, know that what you emagine can be there in crome plated gold or titanium , the things ,houses, cars, aeroplanes Opera city block, everything you just need to remember I want my name back, Kill the Brick.
only if we didn't have to deal with the building trades or unions... then we could use indentured immigrant labors like they do in abu dhabi and our buildings would cost 1/2 of what they do today... oh, I forgot that the people using them need to get paid too and would be unemployed if we all exploited the cheap labor of the developing world!!!!!
not without - what is your theme music?
Not without the new jobs, the mountain of money it mean, when the house only cost a third and last 400 years. Not unless realising the limitations mimicing workers at the assembly line not without the ability that is the only thing that make us the artist, to be able to master a craft and see further.
------- just remember, it was thives that build Hell.
I know a lot of interior designers and have never met one professional with an interior design degree. Interns still in school or just graduated...sure. Do they disappear some place with all of the missing left socks and baby pigeons?
Bristolkid, saying that a competent interior designer could adequately design a two-story house (as you did in your first point #5) is on the same level of hubris as the people who you said you didn't want to be associated with in your second point #5. I know if I encountered an interior designer who said they could design a house just like an architect, I would really doubt they knew what they were talking about, because when have interior designers had to learn about site placement, weather protection, seismic forces, power and service requirements, etc, etc, etc...
FYI, I learned about ALL of those things in my BFA program in Interior Architecture and Design. I am an Interior Designer. Just so you know, there are programs that are not M.Arch or MFA Arch. programs that teach those things as well.
I come from an architecture background. I am on my way to becoming a licensed architect. I just passed the first of 7 architect registration exams- structural systems. It was a very difficult exam. There is no question that architecture as a profession, is a difficult field and those who try to either debunk that fact or reaffirm it, are wasting their time because that is a fact- it is difficult.
However- I will ask one simple question: say you are frank ghery or another famous architect; you design the form of the building, and resolve the spatial problems of circulation, structure, and so on. What is more important to you as an architect- the overall concept of the buildings or the details like what color to put up on the walls?
I say leave all those details like colors, furniture, and so on to the interior designers. They are the ones who are good at resolving those little details. And as far as the general building goes- designers should mind their own business.
It is my firm belief that interior designers are just like decorators. For me it is clear: decoration and interior design are synonymous. An architect can do everything else.
The simpler the building, the more time an architect can devote to the details. The more complicated the building, the more likely it is that the architect can get away with a less elegantly designed detail because that is not the focus. Allow me to elaborate. I will use thre examples to illustrate my point:
1) Mies van der Rohe's Barcelona Pavilion | Very simple buildng from a construction stand point. No complicated forms or anything. Just planes. But Mies worked out his famous chrome faced column detail and specified the specific cuts for the marble he used.
2) Peter Zumthor's Thermal Baths | A little more complicated building, but still a simple form. Like the Barcelona Pavilion, the exterior and interior almost blend seamlessly, informing the architect's choice of materials.
3) Hertzog De Meuron's Winery | This buiding contrasts with the other two because it has a well defined building envelope. There is clearly an interior and clearly an exterior, yet the interior of the space is absoluely affectd by the exterior becuase of the way light enters the space.
In conclusion, interior designers have a place in the design process when the building is banal and the exterior does not affect the interior in any way and nothing else but decoration would help it rise above a miserable place/space. Other than that, the architect can do almost everything a an interior designer can other than schmoozing his vendors for tickets to venues like Color Invasion!
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