The possessing class and the class of the proletariat present the same human self-alienation. But the former class feels at home in this self-alienation, it finds confirmation of itself and recognises in alienation its own power; it has in it a semblance of human existence, while the class of the proletariat feels annihilated in its self-alienation; it sees therein its own powerlessness and the reality of an inhuman existence.---Karl Marx
...So proletariats must be perfectly at home in their disembodied state.
yeah right.
So why are they so miserable and anxious and constantly trying to access other people\'s \"embodied state\" (generally acquired through effort) by any means possible?
Seems the proleteriat has only one way--> down. By destroying the middle class they can look forward to a lessening of the degree to which they might have become embodied themselves.
You cannot raise the least common denominator by tearing down higher denominators (orders) above the least.
But, don\'t tell the idiocracy. They think that when you steal something its possible to still value and feel meaning towards the embodied state they have nefariously acquired.
Of course, it cannot be done. Reality does not work that way.
And don\'t be hatin up here on me. I don\'t make the rules. Take it up with your Maker. Whatever you believe the Maker to be. I am not the Maker, I can tell you that much.
1) Obviously, you've had a bad experience in the profession, but you are but one experience among tens of thousands. There are hundreds of successful and interesting architects in my city alone. Why exactly do you think your personal experience is reflective of the entire profession?
2) You are constantly claiming that everyone here is stupid or naive. How exactly do you figure this? The only basis of comparison I could dig up is employment - most people here are employed, while you are long-term unemployed.
3) How exactly would you change arch education? Which schools do you admire and why?
Some thought provoking questions (some more than others):
"1) Obviously, you've had a bad experience in the profession, but you are but one experience among tens of thousands. There are hundreds of successful and interesting architects in my city alone. Why exactly do you think your personal experience is reflective of the entire profession?"
I have reiterated this recently in great detail. Please review my posts for this information. I have data to back up my claims which center around the general experience of the average, typical, everyday architect in the contemoprary profession. (ex. scientific data indicated the unhappiness of the average professional architect, the relatively low trust of the average arachitect by the public, and the low economic compensation for services provided by the architect).
Generally, the profession is on life support and everyday that the Gehry ttypes are in leadership positions the value of the title architect gets that much debased.
"2) You are constantly claiming that everyone here is stupid or naive. How exactly do you figure this? The only basis of comparison I could dig up is employment - most people here are employed, while you are long-term unemployed."
12 years employed in the capacity of architect. I actually gave up two clients when I started Med School. Gave them files and walked away. Officially you can say I was "employed" for 12 years and was 9 months self employed. That means lets see, technically by the most cynic's evaluation, 144 months/ 153 months total = employed in architecture 94% of the time. I'm sure thats actually much higher than the average architect actuallly. Now if you count time unemployed as a sole practioner RA...ZERO time unemployed.
"3) How exactly would you change arch education? Which schools do you admire and why?"
I'll have to try and remember to get back to you on this one...got to go study some biochem at this particular moment. Would love to address this one...you know how it is I am sure, though, not likely I'll remember to revisist and pick up this one tiny thread...perhaps.
"IHATEMARXISTS sure has a lot of time to be posting for someone in medical school. "
Actually...got to go right now.
The fact is though that I ahead of my lab work and coursework so I am kind of picking my head out of my myopic ass where I inserted it a few months ago and having fun realizing "DAMN. I wsa right and I've been right all along. Good for me"
This helps me for the future.
I'm late, got for an engagement with some lab partners that started 5 minutes ago, got to run...
Okay, looks like there is a little lull in the action right now.
"I hope you don't me calling Tim to verify you're actually in Medical School"
Why not? There are still some things that are free to do in this country. Perhaps this is one of them? The lawyers have made it such that they are the only ones who know, really.
The common denominator in everything that is done must be to focus on the value that the average competent practioner brings to the average table, that means getting away from the overemphasis on "art" and reinstate mathematics, engineering, and scientific inquiry and knowledge as the foundation for the value of the architect. Gehry is the very last architect that should be resorted to as a model practicioner.
There is a litany of things to #1 stop denying, then address.
#1 Is determine "no pain no gain" and realize that by tackling these things head on & fully admitting them, they can start to be addressed properly.
#2 Somewhere near the top of the list would be to get the schools off the religious devotion to equality which filters dummies into the profession. Make Calculus and Physics imperative to the undergraduate curriculum to start filtering OUT the dummies and filter in the problem solvers and brains again.
#3 Another thing to do is to immediately require the licensure of every single professor professing to teach architecture in the schools. NO EXCEPTIONS.
#4 Another thing to do is to immediately HALF the number of accredited schools.
#5 The list goes on and on
"(cont.) 3) Which schools do you admire and why?"
Notre Dame is the only school I have found in all my years (out of 121 accredited I think the # is now?). Sadly, I've heard some disconcerting news that although they have held the fort down in the middle of the dsygenic forces that have taken western civ by storm in the active colonization of the west that has propogated post WW2, they are now perhaps? beginning to bend. They've done one hell of a job keeping it mostly together up until now.
Why? Reason and virtue are the antithesis of the meaningless pursuits of modernism. This is how the Dean of Notre Dame puts it and I've never heard it (the need for reason and virtue to be embedded in architecture) explained better:
"Knowledge alone is not enough to create an understanding of the world. Knowledge reveals the basic facts, but we still need reason to prioritize and assemble this knowledge in a useful manner, and we need virtue to direct us toward just ends. That is why faith is a crucial aspect of education. Without steadfast belief in a better future, virtue and reason give way to futility and cynicism. Only through conscious participation in the great cultural project of the world can we hope to achieve our personal and public aspirations. Architects are asked to act, and through their actions, to define how the world ought to be.
>snip< ...The School emphasizes the principles of the traditional city and its architecture as a way to understand and solve the problems of contemporary life. It uses the past as a way of informing the future...
If you want to argue that there is a shred of virtue or reason in what Gehry's self indulgent, inconsiderate architecture represents, as well as by default the 120 or so other NAAB accredited schools, then you and I might as well not waste our time discussing this any further. If so, we might as well mutually understand that as sure as light is in perpetual conflict with darkness, we will never understand eachother.
The AIA's pursuit of Diversity and Sustainability under the false pretense of logic, reason, and virtue is horrifying.
Right now it does look as if the trajectories indicate that the profession is indeed going to watch itself burn completely to the ground.
"If you want to argue that there is a shred of virtue or reason in what Gehry's self indulgent, inconsiderate architecture represents, as well as by default the 120 or so other NAAB accredited schools, then you and I might as well not waste our time discussing this any further. If so, we might as well mutually understand that as sure as light is in perpetual conflict with darkness, we will never understand eachother."
a whole lot of bitterness in this thread. sounds like some of you would rather have an apprenticeship system of some sort that was independent of a university.
"The United States of America is both a Marxist State and a Fascist Society now?"
A careful analysis would easily demonstrate that the USSA is fully marxist and fascist now. The two poops smell the same.
How many of you follow the news?
Have you heard of the "Safe" Food Act which was just passed? Oh Yeah! in principle you can't get any more fascist than that.
And how about the Pigford thing that just passed? Oh yeah! In principle you can't get anymore marxist than that.
Of course, this is a miniscule sample of what has just occured in the last week.
Get real people. Simple fact is the history books are written after history has happened and its happening now.
A king by any other name (hint: president) is still a king whether their name is George Bush the II or Barry Soetoro (Obama) the I.
Guaranteed the history books will have a chapter titled Nov 4, 2008: The day the American Empire died.
And in truth "President of the United States" has more of a Kingly ring to it which lends itself to taxing without representation than any actual King ever did.
SoulBrother, we have an apprenticeship system that *is* separate from university right now. It may be the case that the rules of that system require more 'points' from people who don't have a degree, but the evidence is that the people with a degree take longer to accumulate the points.
I'll agree with hater on one qualified point: the system is broken. There is no meaningful relationship between what NCARB insists schools teach and what is required to acquire a license, and the requirements for a license aren't much of an indicator of whether you will be successful as an architect.
I’ve been digging into her/his odiferous challenge of my characterization of the Occupational Outlook Handbook data, and found some interesting anecdotal evidence. There was something of a sea change with the latest handbook for how they categorize both emerging professionals and senior members of professions that changes their numbers considerably. Previously, you were considered a member of the profession once licensed. This made every first year resident count, and only licensed architects. Now, you must have completed your education, but sole proprietors, partners, managers, and directors have a different occupational category (as do landscape and naval architects). So the only people who they count as architects anymore are people who graduated but don’t share in the management or profits of their firm (i.e. cad monkeys).
For those odd characters, the median income is $76,750. The median board certified physician will earn [http://www.bls.gov/k12/help06.htm]$186,044[/url]. My ’06 numbers were a median salary of $98,061 and $104,767 respectively, but clearly that is comparing cats and dogs with apples and oranges.
It is the case in general that there is a relationship between studying at a 'good' school and increased earnings over the course of your life. That is regardless of the subject you study – so while hater’s bile for “contemporary writing, philosophy, movie making, graphic design, art,” may be compatible with her/his belief that the profession has raped her/him and left him for dead, socio-economically speaking, it is only because he equates class with poverty, she/he might want to consider that her/his own caddish behavior is to blame.
That shows in his readings of both Marx and Jefferson, which is to say that he clearly hasn’t made an honest attempt to read either. Perhaps Jamie Lee Curtis was right, apes do read philosophy, they just don’t understand it.
Hum, that just mike him the first real Cad-monkey I’ve ever met.
Median means 50% make above that and 50% make below that. The average salary of a general medication doctor is about $168,000. Not to mention the incredible amount of liability placed on a doctor. Ten years of salary can be wiped away with a single lawsuit.
If you want to argue that physician's pay is more equitable... then yes, it is.
All doctors are pretty fairly clumped together in terms of percentile. Only 10% of all doctors make less than six figures. Specialty triumphs over experience in many cases. So, the system is definitely more fair to people to who genuinely apply themselves.
Architecture is more clumpy.
Those with 10 years experience or less and those who don't have a license seem to all make the same amount. Then there's pretty much a pocket of people who tend to make between $65-95k. Then another pocket of people who make $125-150k+.
Specialties in architecture do fetch more but it seems that the pay is rather stagnant. At any given firm, specialists like BIM managers, Planners, Engineers et cetera all seem to have varying wages.
For instance... with the exception of highly-experienced planners, all planning ads I've seen in the past year all pretty much have a salary between $55-75k depending on location. But the pay doesn't seem to change whether you have 3 years experience or 10 years experience.
To be honest, I can't imagine a planner at a medium sized firm really working more than 8 weeks a year. So, I suppose being underutilized 80% of the time has its advantages.
"...but sole proprietors, partners, managers, and directors have a different occupational category (as do landscape and naval architects). So the only people who they count as architects anymore are people who graduated but don’t share in the management or profits of their firm (i.e. cad monkeys)."
You made some decent points in your last post, fair enough, but this particular one the complete inverse of reality.
For example, let me let you in on a little "secret" in a twist of logic that the typical practicioner (licensed or not -from the AIA brainwashed dues paying member (as well as non dues paying uninitiated member of the AIA Union, i.e. unlicensed CAD monky)
Let me leave the breadtrail for all you nitwtis out there (and then I'll stop ranting for a moment about how technically incompetent the average AIA kiss up if these days):
DO A CAREFUL, CAREFUL, CAREFUL, CAREFUL, CAREFUL, CAREFUL, METICULOUS, METICULOUS, METICULOUS, METICULOUS ANALYSIS OF THE AIA COMPENSATION REPORTS AND YOU WILL NOTICE SOMETHING "FUNNY" ABOUT THEIR DEFINTIONS OF positions within firms.
One more breadcrumb and then I'll stop for now:
HINT: TO BE AN OWNER/ PARTNER/ MANAGER OF A FIRM, or indeed anyone of the particular positions within a firm: (NOT BY MY DEFINITION BUT NY THE AIA'S SO DON'T BE "HATIN'" ON ME YOU SHOULD BE HATIN' THE AIA AND THE IRS AND THE SECRESTS OF THE EQUALITY DICTATORS AT THE VERY TOP, besides realizing how pissed you all ought to be at yourselves for not being techincially adept enough to notice the carefully crafted loophole)
YOU DO NOT HAVE TO BE LICENSED AT ALL!!!
And now you know why the license, and the profession is NOT WORTH SHIT!!!
Be honest with yourself and your nieghbor for one millisecond: Do you really think that lawyers or doctors would have a socioeconoimcally viable profession for longer than 24 hours if requirement for non-D.I.Y selfing was NOT embedded inextricably from any particular socioeconomic system? Only for the top .0005% of course (and most definately NOT for the average professional architect, lawyer, or doctor or any profession).
THIS IS WHY I HATE THE CONTEMPORARY PROFESSION, THE AIA (by default), AND AT THE ROOT OF IT MARXISM.
Yet most of you sycophants will just brush over my technical point in your mad craze to simply numb you intelligence into accepting more layers of cognitive dissoance to placate your consciences for "just a little while longer" so you can survive until tonight when you can at least have one more beer and pretend its all good.
IDIOTS. you've left the barn door open. But thats what happens when every door keeper is categorized as "equal". IDIOTS.
FOR ONCE I WISH ANY OLD AVERAGE AIA IDIOT ARCHITECT WOULD DO WHAT THEY DO BEST AND STEAL THIS PARTICULAR IDEA, MAKE IT THEIR OWN, NECESSARILY ALSO GETTING TO THE REQUISITE DEGREE OF ANGER IT REQUIRES TO INVEST IN GETTING IT, AND PUBLISH IT ON THE ROOFTOPS.
Sadly, I won't be holding my breath. And thats why I've moved on to a profession with socioeconomic prospects of 10x the dollar opportunties and a priceless amount of respect from the public (as opposed to derision).
I said "You made some decent points in your last post, fair enough, but this particular one the complete inverse of reality."
in the previous post.
In my haste, I forgot to edit it to read, "You made some decent points in your last post, fair enough, but this particular one IS the complete inverse of reality. You have to dig much deeper and not accept ANYTHING at face value (like old school architects used to).
The weapon of criticism cannot, of course, replace criticism of the weapon, material force must be overthrown by material force; but
theory also becomes a material force as soon as it has gripped the masses.
Theory is capable of gripping the masses as soon as it demonstrates ad hominem, and it demonstrates ad hominem as soon as it becomes radical. To be radical is to grasp the root of the matter. But, for man, the root is man himself.
Marx, Critique of Hegel’s Philosophy of Right. Introduction
We were definitely warned about the difficulties of finding a job. Our faculty, the dean included, spent time with us one on one to discuss our goals, and the different options that we might pursue. Many had survived the crash in the early 80s and had great examples of how to stay in the field or come back to the field. Included in these discussions were:
1. Try to position ourselves for "the next job," emphasizing the flexibility of our employment ("don't wait for the dream job, take what you can learn from and be on the lookout for opportunities").
2. Be flexible and willing to work part-time, contract and build relationships. As recent grads the emphasis on proving our ability to work in the "real world."
3. Pursuing our interests (both in and out of architecture), with the understanding that we may have to take on jobs to make ends meet. Examples: entering competitions with friends to stay positive and keep the creative juices flowing, volunteering to help but also build networks, having regular get-togethers with colleagues to vent/support each other.
4. Networking tips and list of names/firms to contact. Our alumni have been very helpful in keeping our (my class) heads up.
I'm happy to say the majority of our class is working in the field, with many on second jobs. We've helped each other find openings and helped each other with networking, portfolio, and interviewing tips.
We, for the most part, figured out what to expect (time/benefits/ compensation), and have been able to get it. In all of my discussions with friends, I've noticed we're getting past the grass-is-greener attitude and hoping that a little sacrifice now will get us where we want in a few years (most of my friends from previous classes are much happier now, and better off financially).
I must say though the IDP process is disturbingly complex. Going through the same process in LAr and engineering, it's almost as if the profession doesn't trust itself - I wonder if it's the mobility of interns that necessitates it or lack of communication among licensed professionals (both ASCE and ASLA are far less controversial than the AIA, I get the feeling there's a sizable resistance to the AIA), or I suppose both. The purpose of the license is to ensure a minimum public safety, then shouldn't the exam more or less be objective? Architects should be licensed (and as in all professions be overseen by their peers), it doesn't necessarily make them good architects - just competent.
On a related note, the responsibility to the public (and ethics) wasn't emphasized in the two programs I was part of, especially in comparison to engineering education -> might professionalism be cultivated better by faculties and less of the omnipotent "designer."?
Any who, short answer is: yes, we were warned about IDP, lack of jobs, needing to pursuit alternatives while staying in touch, got alumni contacts and networking help. We were scared and tried to keep an optimistic attitude (much like in thesis); and, well, I like to think we came out ok so far.
for those in architecture school right now...
The possessing class and the class of the proletariat present the same human self-alienation. But the former class feels at home in this self-alienation, it finds confirmation of itself and recognises in alienation its own power; it has in it a semblance of human existence, while the class of the proletariat feels annihilated in its self-alienation; it sees therein its own powerlessness and the reality of an inhuman existence.---Karl Marx
...So proletariats must be perfectly at home in their disembodied state.
yeah right.
So why are they so miserable and anxious and constantly trying to access other people\'s \"embodied state\" (generally acquired through effort) by any means possible?
Seems the proleteriat has only one way--> down. By destroying the middle class they can look forward to a lessening of the degree to which they might have become embodied themselves.
You cannot raise the least common denominator by tearing down higher denominators (orders) above the least.
But, don\'t tell the idiocracy. They think that when you steal something its possible to still value and feel meaning towards the embodied state they have nefariously acquired.
Of course, it cannot be done. Reality does not work that way.
And don\'t be hatin up here on me. I don\'t make the rules. Take it up with your Maker. Whatever you believe the Maker to be. I am not the Maker, I can tell you that much.
IHATEMARXISTS, I have a few questions:
1) Obviously, you've had a bad experience in the profession, but you are but one experience among tens of thousands. There are hundreds of successful and interesting architects in my city alone. Why exactly do you think your personal experience is reflective of the entire profession?
2) You are constantly claiming that everyone here is stupid or naive. How exactly do you figure this? The only basis of comparison I could dig up is employment - most people here are employed, while you are long-term unemployed.
3) How exactly would you change arch education? Which schools do you admire and why?
IHATEMARXISTS sure has a lot of time to be posting for someone in medical school.
He's not in medical school.
He's a fat cat principal at a firm that builds almost nothing but public works projects exclusively.
Mister I Hate The Government makes all of his money from building overpriced elementary schools in Meth Capital, USA.
This is what IHATEMARXISTS' firm produces.
Some thought provoking questions (some more than others):
"1) Obviously, you've had a bad experience in the profession, but you are but one experience among tens of thousands. There are hundreds of successful and interesting architects in my city alone. Why exactly do you think your personal experience is reflective of the entire profession?"
I have reiterated this recently in great detail. Please review my posts for this information. I have data to back up my claims which center around the general experience of the average, typical, everyday architect in the contemoprary profession. (ex. scientific data indicated the unhappiness of the average professional architect, the relatively low trust of the average arachitect by the public, and the low economic compensation for services provided by the architect).
Generally, the profession is on life support and everyday that the Gehry ttypes are in leadership positions the value of the title architect gets that much debased.
"2) You are constantly claiming that everyone here is stupid or naive. How exactly do you figure this? The only basis of comparison I could dig up is employment - most people here are employed, while you are long-term unemployed."
12 years employed in the capacity of architect. I actually gave up two clients when I started Med School. Gave them files and walked away. Officially you can say I was "employed" for 12 years and was 9 months self employed. That means lets see, technically by the most cynic's evaluation, 144 months/ 153 months total = employed in architecture 94% of the time. I'm sure thats actually much higher than the average architect actuallly. Now if you count time unemployed as a sole practioner RA...ZERO time unemployed.
"3) How exactly would you change arch education? Which schools do you admire and why?"
I'll have to try and remember to get back to you on this one...got to go study some biochem at this particular moment. Would love to address this one...you know how it is I am sure, though, not likely I'll remember to revisist and pick up this one tiny thread...perhaps.
Dumping all of IHATEMARXISTS' firms work:
"IHATEMARXISTS sure has a lot of time to be posting for someone in medical school. "
Actually...got to go right now.
The fact is though that I ahead of my lab work and coursework so I am kind of picking my head out of my myopic ass where I inserted it a few months ago and having fun realizing "DAMN. I wsa right and I've been right all along. Good for me"
This helps me for the future.
I'm late, got for an engagement with some lab partners that started 5 minutes ago, got to run...
I hope you don't me calling Tim to verify you're actually in Medical School.
Okay, looks like there is a little lull in the action right now.
"I hope you don't me calling Tim to verify you're actually in Medical School"
Why not? There are still some things that are free to do in this country. Perhaps this is one of them? The lawyers have made it such that they are the only ones who know, really.
back @ sectionalhealing,
"3) How exactly would you change arch education?"
The common denominator in everything that is done must be to focus on the value that the average competent practioner brings to the average table, that means getting away from the overemphasis on "art" and reinstate mathematics, engineering, and scientific inquiry and knowledge as the foundation for the value of the architect. Gehry is the very last architect that should be resorted to as a model practicioner.
There is a litany of things to #1 stop denying, then address.
#1 Is determine "no pain no gain" and realize that by tackling these things head on & fully admitting them, they can start to be addressed properly.
#2 Somewhere near the top of the list would be to get the schools off the religious devotion to equality which filters dummies into the profession. Make Calculus and Physics imperative to the undergraduate curriculum to start filtering OUT the dummies and filter in the problem solvers and brains again.
#3 Another thing to do is to immediately require the licensure of every single professor professing to teach architecture in the schools. NO EXCEPTIONS.
#4 Another thing to do is to immediately HALF the number of accredited schools.
#5 The list goes on and on
"(cont.) 3) Which schools do you admire and why?"
Notre Dame is the only school I have found in all my years (out of 121 accredited I think the # is now?). Sadly, I've heard some disconcerting news that although they have held the fort down in the middle of the dsygenic forces that have taken western civ by storm in the active colonization of the west that has propogated post WW2, they are now perhaps? beginning to bend. They've done one hell of a job keeping it mostly together up until now.
Why? Reason and virtue are the antithesis of the meaningless pursuits of modernism. This is how the Dean of Notre Dame puts it and I've never heard it (the need for reason and virtue to be embedded in architecture) explained better:
"Knowledge alone is not enough to create an understanding of the world. Knowledge reveals the basic facts, but we still need reason to prioritize and assemble this knowledge in a useful manner, and we need virtue to direct us toward just ends. That is why faith is a crucial aspect of education. Without steadfast belief in a better future, virtue and reason give way to futility and cynicism. Only through conscious participation in the great cultural project of the world can we hope to achieve our personal and public aspirations. Architects are asked to act, and through their actions, to define how the world ought to be.
>snip< ...The School emphasizes the principles of the traditional city and its architecture as a way to understand and solve the problems of contemporary life. It uses the past as a way of informing the future...
>snip<.
---Michael Lykoudis
reference: http://architecture.nd.edu/arch_subcategory.aspx?id=103
If you want to argue that there is a shred of virtue or reason in what Gehry's self indulgent, inconsiderate architecture represents, as well as by default the 120 or so other NAAB accredited schools, then you and I might as well not waste our time discussing this any further. If so, we might as well mutually understand that as sure as light is in perpetual conflict with darkness, we will never understand eachother.
The AIA's pursuit of Diversity and Sustainability under the false pretense of logic, reason, and virtue is horrifying.
Right now it does look as if the trajectories indicate that the profession is indeed going to watch itself burn completely to the ground.
"If you want to argue that there is a shred of virtue or reason in what Gehry's self indulgent, inconsiderate architecture represents, as well as by default the 120 or so other NAAB accredited schools, then you and I might as well not waste our time discussing this any further. If so, we might as well mutually understand that as sure as light is in perpetual conflict with darkness, we will never understand eachother."
Waiter, check please!
hey uhhh when you get your MD license, you cool with writing me a couple free prescriptions?
Wait...No, seriously wait just one minute.
The United States of America is both a Marxist State and a Fascist Society now?
a whole lot of bitterness in this thread. sounds like some of you would rather have an apprenticeship system of some sort that was independent of a university.
I wouldn't recommend borrowing a nickel to study architecture these days.
"The United States of America is both a Marxist State and a Fascist Society now?"
A careful analysis would easily demonstrate that the USSA is fully marxist and fascist now. The two poops smell the same.
How many of you follow the news?
Have you heard of the "Safe" Food Act which was just passed? Oh Yeah! in principle you can't get any more fascist than that.
And how about the Pigford thing that just passed? Oh yeah! In principle you can't get anymore marxist than that.
Of course, this is a miniscule sample of what has just occured in the last week.
Get real people. Simple fact is the history books are written after history has happened and its happening now.
A king by any other name (hint: president) is still a king whether their name is George Bush the II or Barry Soetoro (Obama) the I.
Guaranteed the history books will have a chapter titled Nov 4, 2008: The day the American Empire died.
And in truth "President of the United States" has more of a Kingly ring to it which lends itself to taxing without representation than any actual King ever did.
The USSA in deed and fact.
well if you dont like the way things are get the hell out.
SoulBrother, we have an apprenticeship system that *is* separate from university right now. It may be the case that the rules of that system require more 'points' from people who don't have a degree, but the evidence is that the people with a degree take longer to accumulate the points.
I'll agree with hater on one qualified point: the system is broken. There is no meaningful relationship between what NCARB insists schools teach and what is required to acquire a license, and the requirements for a license aren't much of an indicator of whether you will be successful as an architect.
I’ve been digging into her/his odiferous challenge of my characterization of the Occupational Outlook Handbook data, and found some interesting anecdotal evidence. There was something of a sea change with the latest handbook for how they categorize both emerging professionals and senior members of professions that changes their numbers considerably. Previously, you were considered a member of the profession once licensed. This made every first year resident count, and only licensed architects. Now, you must have completed your education, but sole proprietors, partners, managers, and directors have a different occupational category (as do landscape and naval architects). So the only people who they count as architects anymore are people who graduated but don’t share in the management or profits of their firm (i.e. cad monkeys).
For those odd characters, the median income is $76,750. The median board certified physician will earn [http://www.bls.gov/k12/help06.htm]$186,044[/url]. My ’06 numbers were a median salary of $98,061 and $104,767 respectively, but clearly that is comparing cats and dogs with apples and oranges.
It is the case in general that there is a relationship between studying at a 'good' school and increased earnings over the course of your life. That is regardless of the subject you study – so while hater’s bile for “contemporary writing, philosophy, movie making, graphic design, art,” may be compatible with her/his belief that the profession has raped her/him and left him for dead, socio-economically speaking, it is only because he equates class with poverty, she/he might want to consider that her/his own caddish behavior is to blame.
That shows in his readings of both Marx and Jefferson, which is to say that he clearly hasn’t made an honest attempt to read either. Perhaps Jamie Lee Curtis was right, apes do read philosophy, they just don’t understand it.
Hum, that just mike him the first real Cad-monkey I’ve ever met.
Median is not the same as average.
Median means 50% make above that and 50% make below that. The average salary of a general medication doctor is about $168,000. Not to mention the incredible amount of liability placed on a doctor. Ten years of salary can be wiped away with a single lawsuit.
If you want to argue that physician's pay is more equitable... then yes, it is.
All doctors are pretty fairly clumped together in terms of percentile. Only 10% of all doctors make less than six figures. Specialty triumphs over experience in many cases. So, the system is definitely more fair to people to who genuinely apply themselves.
Architecture is more clumpy.
Those with 10 years experience or less and those who don't have a license seem to all make the same amount. Then there's pretty much a pocket of people who tend to make between $65-95k. Then another pocket of people who make $125-150k+.
Specialties in architecture do fetch more but it seems that the pay is rather stagnant. At any given firm, specialists like BIM managers, Planners, Engineers et cetera all seem to have varying wages.
For instance... with the exception of highly-experienced planners, all planning ads I've seen in the past year all pretty much have a salary between $55-75k depending on location. But the pay doesn't seem to change whether you have 3 years experience or 10 years experience.
To be honest, I can't imagine a planner at a medium sized firm really working more than 8 weeks a year. So, I suppose being underutilized 80% of the time has its advantages.
mespleerong, you said,:
"...but sole proprietors, partners, managers, and directors have a different occupational category (as do landscape and naval architects). So the only people who they count as architects anymore are people who graduated but don’t share in the management or profits of their firm (i.e. cad monkeys)."
You made some decent points in your last post, fair enough, but this particular one the complete inverse of reality.
For example, let me let you in on a little "secret" in a twist of logic that the typical practicioner (licensed or not -from the AIA brainwashed dues paying member (as well as non dues paying uninitiated member of the AIA Union, i.e. unlicensed CAD monky)
Let me leave the breadtrail for all you nitwtis out there (and then I'll stop ranting for a moment about how technically incompetent the average AIA kiss up if these days):
DO A CAREFUL, CAREFUL, CAREFUL, CAREFUL, CAREFUL, CAREFUL, METICULOUS, METICULOUS, METICULOUS, METICULOUS ANALYSIS OF THE AIA COMPENSATION REPORTS AND YOU WILL NOTICE SOMETHING "FUNNY" ABOUT THEIR DEFINTIONS OF positions within firms.
One more breadcrumb and then I'll stop for now:
HINT: TO BE AN OWNER/ PARTNER/ MANAGER OF A FIRM, or indeed anyone of the particular positions within a firm: (NOT BY MY DEFINITION BUT NY THE AIA'S SO DON'T BE "HATIN'" ON ME YOU SHOULD BE HATIN' THE AIA AND THE IRS AND THE SECRESTS OF THE EQUALITY DICTATORS AT THE VERY TOP, besides realizing how pissed you all ought to be at yourselves for not being techincially adept enough to notice the carefully crafted loophole)
YOU DO NOT HAVE TO BE LICENSED AT ALL!!!
And now you know why the license, and the profession is NOT WORTH SHIT!!!
Be honest with yourself and your nieghbor for one millisecond: Do you really think that lawyers or doctors would have a socioeconoimcally viable profession for longer than 24 hours if requirement for non-D.I.Y selfing was NOT embedded inextricably from any particular socioeconomic system? Only for the top .0005% of course (and most definately NOT for the average professional architect, lawyer, or doctor or any profession).
THIS IS WHY I HATE THE CONTEMPORARY PROFESSION, THE AIA (by default), AND AT THE ROOT OF IT MARXISM.
Yet most of you sycophants will just brush over my technical point in your mad craze to simply numb you intelligence into accepting more layers of cognitive dissoance to placate your consciences for "just a little while longer" so you can survive until tonight when you can at least have one more beer and pretend its all good.
IDIOTS. you've left the barn door open. But thats what happens when every door keeper is categorized as "equal". IDIOTS.
FOR ONCE I WISH ANY OLD AVERAGE AIA IDIOT ARCHITECT WOULD DO WHAT THEY DO BEST AND STEAL THIS PARTICULAR IDEA, MAKE IT THEIR OWN, NECESSARILY ALSO GETTING TO THE REQUISITE DEGREE OF ANGER IT REQUIRES TO INVEST IN GETTING IT, AND PUBLISH IT ON THE ROOFTOPS.
Sadly, I won't be holding my breath. And thats why I've moved on to a profession with socioeconomic prospects of 10x the dollar opportunties and a priceless amount of respect from the public (as opposed to derision).
I said "You made some decent points in your last post, fair enough, but this particular one the complete inverse of reality."
in the previous post.
In my haste, I forgot to edit it to read, "You made some decent points in your last post, fair enough, but this particular one IS the complete inverse of reality. You have to dig much deeper and not accept ANYTHING at face value (like old school architects used to).
The weapon of criticism cannot, of course, replace criticism of the weapon, material force must be overthrown by material force; but
theory also becomes a material force as soon as it has gripped the masses.
Theory is capable of gripping the masses as soon as it demonstrates ad hominem, and it demonstrates ad hominem as soon as it becomes radical. To be radical is to grasp the root of the matter. But, for man, the root is man himself.
Marx, Critique of Hegel’s Philosophy of Right. Introduction
Graduated last year MArch/MLArch.
We were definitely warned about the difficulties of finding a job. Our faculty, the dean included, spent time with us one on one to discuss our goals, and the different options that we might pursue. Many had survived the crash in the early 80s and had great examples of how to stay in the field or come back to the field. Included in these discussions were:
1. Try to position ourselves for "the next job," emphasizing the flexibility of our employment ("don't wait for the dream job, take what you can learn from and be on the lookout for opportunities").
2. Be flexible and willing to work part-time, contract and build relationships. As recent grads the emphasis on proving our ability to work in the "real world."
3. Pursuing our interests (both in and out of architecture), with the understanding that we may have to take on jobs to make ends meet. Examples: entering competitions with friends to stay positive and keep the creative juices flowing, volunteering to help but also build networks, having regular get-togethers with colleagues to vent/support each other.
4. Networking tips and list of names/firms to contact. Our alumni have been very helpful in keeping our (my class) heads up.
I'm happy to say the majority of our class is working in the field, with many on second jobs. We've helped each other find openings and helped each other with networking, portfolio, and interviewing tips.
We, for the most part, figured out what to expect (time/benefits/ compensation), and have been able to get it. In all of my discussions with friends, I've noticed we're getting past the grass-is-greener attitude and hoping that a little sacrifice now will get us where we want in a few years (most of my friends from previous classes are much happier now, and better off financially).
I must say though the IDP process is disturbingly complex. Going through the same process in LAr and engineering, it's almost as if the profession doesn't trust itself - I wonder if it's the mobility of interns that necessitates it or lack of communication among licensed professionals (both ASCE and ASLA are far less controversial than the AIA, I get the feeling there's a sizable resistance to the AIA), or I suppose both. The purpose of the license is to ensure a minimum public safety, then shouldn't the exam more or less be objective? Architects should be licensed (and as in all professions be overseen by their peers), it doesn't necessarily make them good architects - just competent.
On a related note, the responsibility to the public (and ethics) wasn't emphasized in the two programs I was part of, especially in comparison to engineering education -> might professionalism be cultivated better by faculties and less of the omnipotent "designer."?
Any who, short answer is: yes, we were warned about IDP, lack of jobs, needing to pursuit alternatives while staying in touch, got alumni contacts and networking help. We were scared and tried to keep an optimistic attitude (much like in thesis); and, well, I like to think we came out ok so far.
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