This seemed worth a discussion.



Building Design posts a "snapshot" of the profession today (in tht UK) with 86% male and 14 female. (Further still, 7% minority).

they write:
These faces represent a cross-section of our architectural society in 2005 —� a shocking and unacceptable 86% male.

Look at their faces. They are all great architects, but it is man, after man, after man. So today we launch a campaign to change this picture. We are asking every practice to commit to a short charter of basic working practices which will give women a better chance in architecture. So if you lead your practice, make a statement of intent. If you are an employee, lobby your bosses. Tell them BD's 50/50 Campaign has support from government, architecture and equal opportunities regulation. Turning the situation around will take years, but making a commitment to change can be achieved much faster. Help us reach our target and end this shame for good.

Does this have the potential to change the increasingly male dominated profession of Architecture? What are additional ways ... or is it a lost cause?

I had never heard the term, "Chartered Accountant". That seems pretty low too so I Googled it:

"The ACA stands for “Associate Chartered Accountant�. But it might as well stand for, “Do pretty much any job in the world of business�. "

In terms of architecture, I don't think it's a lost cause. I've been in this profession for just 9 years and feel as though I work with women more and more all the time. There is definately potential for change.

i wonder if they realize how few 'persons of color' are also on that image?



from AIA web site, this side of the pond showing 20% licensed architects in 2002 [up from 14%]. in uk the term 'architects' only considered the qualified lot.

Full discussion of survey on aia web site .

riba did a nice piece on why women leave architecture.....

This is a tough subject. It's hard for me to believe there really are so few women in the field, as my schooling was all 50-50 and my student ratios over the last few years have also been close to 50-50. I work in a firm that until very recently has always been at least 50-50 (and a high minority ratio, too. White males were definitely the minority in our office for awhile!). Then I look at the list of partners in a huge firm in our town and see that out of 46 partners, only two are female, both in interiors. Wow.

But I can't help but feel that this must be a similar situation in other professional fields. I don't see how the types of "basic working practices" mentioned above wouldn't benefit professional women in any field, I'm not sure there are any changes spedific to architecture.

And further, the types of cchanges I think are important for WOMEN are basically important to PARENTS: family-friendly policies like flex time, good health insurance, no weekend work, etc.

But let's face it, when people have kids, it tends to be the mom who loses track of her career path for awhile. At least in architecture the technology changes slowly enough that a few years of not practicing wouldn't leave you unable to get back up to speed upon coming back to the office.

I've gotta agree with Liberty. Of all the firms I've even visited, women have held much more than a meager 14% or even 20% role. My current employer has even promoted women for the sole reason of their gender.

What gets me is that we as architects feel some need to "diversify" our profession. I have no problem with women or minorities in the profession, just let everyone stand on their own because of merit. I have never worked for an employer who would pass over a better employee because that person was a woman or minority.

As long as we are on this topic we can always talk about why I get less of a bonus or raise because I'm not married or have children. I don't doubt discrimination in many architecture firms but there are equally as many or more that do not. I don't see any reason why a woman cannot excel in architecture. We have bigger issues to tackle than worry about making sure there is a 50/50 representation by gender in architecture.

While it may be precedent for women to lose track of their career when raising a family, I believe that too is changing. In the u.k. anyway, the graph above indicates that 45.9% of the working population are women. I have more and more friends and family that are stay at home dads. One buddy of mine stayed home with his daughter and got his license at the same time. Given the opportunity, most men I know would gladly stay home with their child. The bigger issue may be disparity in pay---it makes sense for a one income household to have the larger paycheck coming in.

I've gotton less of a raise too because I didn't have family and was told such by my boss when I asked why. I've also been told to hire women "because they work harder." Discrimination exists in all walks of life. I can't think of any good reason explaining why the female architect percentage is so low. Maybe that link from TED on why women leave the profession has some clues.

What are our "bigger issues to tackle"? That sounds interesting.

what is with you people saying that you don't really feel there are fewer women in the profession? just because you personally have experienced work environments that are gender balanced does not mean that it is so everywhere.
i wont be getting that bonus either because i see how it would be possible to have children, raise them, and continue my career.

i reall wish archinect had a post editing function....

surprise! surprise! architecture is the rich peoples country club? how shocking!

its really not an isssue about being a man or woman or minority or majority. rather its about people who do not have the financial resources to weather the storm that is Architecture. In the picture in the first post, David Adjaye may be a black man but he is for sure NOT a broke black man. Etnicity and economic (dis)advantage are not related. Until people realize this critical didtinction we will be wasting efforts going after the wrong problem.

Architects go into debt when they go to school, they get paid some $25-50,000, are asked to work late and on weekends, dont get childcare support at their firms, they barely get decent insurance for themselves much less their families...so is it any wonder that it would be a diffcult profession for someone with a child or a non-trust-fund-having person?

so the biggest issue to takle is how do you make this profession more economically feasible for the economically disadvantaged? The medical profession and the Association of American Medical Colleges (AAMC) has some interresting solutions that take an early and proactive role to remedy the situation.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=1136813

meanwhile the AIA is still spending $200,000 worth of money (or five 4-year scholarships) researching IF a problem even exist and "number crunching" (they are doing another study-see sept 04 arch record or story below) and passing out self referential awards.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
AIA to Launch New Diversity Initiative

September 1, 2004

New York-based architect Terrence O’Neal, AIA, has a successful practice, an office overlooking Union Square, and many friends in the business. But he thinks something is very wrong with the profession he loves.

“In terms of diversity, the AIA is about 20 years behind the curve,� says O’Neal, who contributed to a resolution, proposed in June and ratified by the AIA board in September, to help improve poor diversity figures in the notoriously homogenous profession.

The resolution takes a step beyond traditional measures like scholarships, internships and conferences, resorting instead to number crunching. The AIA (with the help of a consultant) hopes to obtain much-needed figures about minority and female access to the profession, helping paint a clearer picture of why so few of these groups enter and stay in architecture, also laying the groundwork for future changes.


“We need to find out what these problems are,� says Elisabeth Casqueiro, Managing Director of Alliances at the AIA, who points to low salaries and long-standing biases as reasons for architecture’s diversity gap , but concedes causes for the issue remain largely a mystery. Outside of cursory data obtained from its Firm Survey- which shows 1% minority membership and 11% female membership- the AIA’s knowledge about minority representation is “remarkably scarce,� according to the resolution, and to several AIA officials, while “the data we have is disconnected and incomplete,� says Ted Landsmark, AIA, head of the AIA Diversity Committee. Meanwhile long-used methods like scholarships seem to have made little headway in reversing the situation, which is very similar to what it was 30 years ago.

The chosen firm will also carry out focus groups to supplement hard numbers with stories, it will explore models in other professions like law and medicine, and compare data with architectural organizations such as the American Collegiate Schools of Architecture (ACSA), the National Collegiate Accreditation Board (NCARB), the National Accrediation board (NAB), and the National Organization of Minority Architects (NOMA). Officials say up to $200,000 could be slated for the project.

Sam Lubell

and i forget to say @#?! the AIA and NCARB. The two biggest usurious, disconnected and irrelevant professional organizations ever to exist.

those @#?!s charge young architects thousands of dollars to sign up for and take registration tests, sell interns $70 necessary study books, then charge people some $500-700 anually to be part of the AIA! they also take that money and waste it on bankrupt web ventures and booze.

those illegitimate sons of female dogs!

I'm not sure I see what the Big Deal is with the BD article. If someone is being promoted on their merit, fine. Obviously, outright discrimination should be dealt with, and there are employment tribunals etc, to deal with this. But what is the problem? i've never heard the Nursing profession bemoaning the lack of men in the nursing workplace. So what if there are more men in architecture than women. At the moment, there are more female medical students than men at many universities. Is this possitive or negative situation?

let me guess dolemite-you are neither a minority or woman and you have a trust fund? its backwater views like yours and a refusal to admit reality, much less confront it that have propagated the problem.

Having more female/ minority medical students than men at many universities did not casually happen overnight.

WAKE UP!

The economic and family arguments made above are strong, and probably account for the reason we see fewer women in practice. I'd like to bring up a somewhat different angle, one that is sure to piss a lot a people off. However, I feel like we ought to be brave enough to have a frank discussion.

Whether it is nature or nurture, it is a fairly obvious fact that women and men think and behave quite differently, and to contend that this does not carry over into the fields of architecture and design would be remiss. The old cliche is that men are more "spatially" intelligent and that women are more "socially" intelligent. There are plenty of exceptions, granted.

Boys grow up playing with legos, building forts, playing video games (pre-CAD training), hot-rodding cars, etc., etc... Women grow up with a different set of experiences, to put it lightly. The experiences that boys have growing up prepare them for being an architect in a way that girls can't quite make up for, no matter how many hours of form-Z tutorials or construction seminars they attend.

In practice, women and men make very different yet equally relevent contributions to the design team IMHO. Women, in my experience, are natural organizers, and tend to advance design ideas in a sensitive, consensus-seeking way. Men, on the other hand, are more likely to skip the organizational step and advance design ideas independantly and without consensus, but perhaps in the end with more resolution.

There is a lot more to say, but I'll leave it at that for now.

There will never be as many women in the profession as men, sorry. Many women want to have children and start families and that takes time away from the career. Its neither good or bad. Its biology. I wish there were more women in architecture.

Noone should ever be hired or promoted for diversity's sake. I guess I value merit and work ethic over diversity. I hope that doesn't make me a bigot.

you dont get it, do you?

THe issue is not one of purely affirmative action, but an issue of where have all the women gone. Whay is it 50/50 in school and 80/20 in practice. And dont give me that "merit and ethic over diversity" bullshit; women are as hardworking and capable as men in school so why wouldnt they be in offices. So, yes, you are a bigot.

Secondly, this whole crap about women want to have children and start families thing. That is a human desire that happens in other professions too, why would it suddenly be an issue for women in architecture? Why?

"It matters that from the first year of university onwards, the number of women in the profession declines steadily as their careers progress � or fail to. It matters that the reasons they give for quitting are not about the nature of the work but about the nature of the workplace."

Maybe it is because the workplace is full of men like you that claim the reason is "biology not bigotry.

(the ironic things is that all of you readers will probably think that this has to be the voice of a woman. wrong.)

the whole construction industry, architects, engineers, contractors, etc. are primarily male-dominated fields. most of the people architects communicate with are men. and i don't really know if i want to get involved in an argument over how men and women communicate, but, i think there is something to that.
i mean, i know that i am a piddly intern and don't get a whole lot of respect as it is, but a lot of the time i feel like i have to be hyper-aggressive to be taken as seriously as my male counterparts. and maybe it is just some sort of insecurity that i need to get over, but shit man, i just want to be treated like the dudes. i want to be able to communicate like men do. i don't want to hit some sort of glass ceiling. but i don't want to be thought of as a bitch, and i am not going to quietly sit around if i don't feel like i am getting the same experiences that the men are who are at my same level.
is there anyone else who can relate to this or do i just have issues?

"Bigger issues?" I wish the AIA would spend more money figuring out how to rectify the fact that some incredibly meager number - like 2% - of the built environment in the US is architected. In the face of becoming an irrelevant profession, I'm far less concerned about the makeup of the people in it.

stephanie, frankly, a lot of your experience will change as you get older. (I assume you're a recently out of school intern.) In addition to both having more knowledge and being more confident in it, when you hit your mid-30's, men in the profession will realize you've been around awhile and aren't just doing it because it's fun.

Yes, women and men communicate differently, and yes, women and men approach design from different backgrounds - this is often the case, though not always. But I think architecture is ingrained in a lot of us - male or female - from an early age: shanec, I spent my childhood building an adobe fort, digging networks of tunnels in piles of dirt for horny toads to run through, and designing houses in the tall weeds for my Barbies. I tested high in spatial cognizance in 8th grade. There is nothing in my formative upbrining that I have to "make up for" to function in a male-dominated field, because I share a similar way of analyzing the world as anyone in the profession.

lifeform's quote is right on - the issue isn't the work, it's the workplace.

hmmm. liberty bell.....

do men in your office also hold back and have this enlightingment in their mid 30's that 'they have been around awhile and arent doing it for fun'....or is that a another silly girly thing?

golly. i hope you didnt write what you mean.

lifeform-
Easy killer. I admire the work of women in our field and I agree women are as hardworking and capable as men. I didn't say otherwise. You don't need to be so defensive. No need for name calling. I was making an honest observation.

Secondly, its not crap, its a fact. You stated it better. It is a human desire, and it doesn't affect just architecture. 3 of the 5 50/50 Charter points attempt to address this(see below). It affects all professions that require the amount of time and training architecture does.

I don't believe that is the only reason there aren't as many women in offices. They may just be too smart to stay in this profession. The workplace is miserable, I can't blame them. I just believe there are other factors outside of bigotry that are playing a role in lack of women. Maybe more conversation and less name calling is in order.

I support the 50/50 Charter 100%.

" The 50/50 Charter

My practice pledges

To recruit, promote, pay and allocate work according to experience and ability alone.
To set out maternity and paternity rights in a written contract for every worker and strive to go beyond the statutory minimum.
To offer flexible working to all employees and retraining for returning parents.
To challenge the long hours culture and monitor working time.
To appoint a practice champion to promote and monitor the charter."

I simply don't like the idea of quotas, that is why I was preaching merit over percentages. The women that have stayed in the profession are doing the best work (Kazuyo Sejima, Hadid, Liz Diller, Billy Tsien). Maybe fostering and promoting the work of talented young female architects would help. Im thinking an annual Women in Architecture issue of Architectural Record. It could begin to generate awareness of the important work being done by women.

By the way, 2.819 million men and 339,000 women in architecture and engineering occupations in the US.
ftp://ftp.bls.gov/pub/suppl/empsit.cpseea19.txt

i agree with liberty that there is no standard upbringing for 'an Architect,' that guarantees that you will be a stellar architect or more successful in the field. I too spent many hours 'designing' houses with dominoes, playing with legos, and had plenty of barbie time.

But if your childhood environment determines your success in a profession, or an affinity for a field, then could someone explain why I've studied architecture, art history, and urbanism after growing up on a farm? far from an art museum, or the suburban/urban dichotomy, or so much as a frank lloyd wright house. so shanec, your idea about the way little boys & girls play making them better or worse architects doesn't really add up.

suture,
I am in fact a visible minority, do not have a trust fund, but am male. Which essentially excludes me from just about every "advancement" program on the face of the planet. I would, however, be incensed if i was promoted ahead of my peers on the basis of my genetic make up, and not my ability. As i would also be infuriated if i was held back for the same reasons.

I think Liberty hit the nail on the head about some of the bigger issues. Would also say the AIA & NCARB could better spend their time dealing with their own ineffectiveness.

I do have sympathy for what Stephanie will has gone through. While I don't see a problem with diversity in architecture - I do see it in construction. Often when on a job site I hear the "bitch" word often - usually referring to a female architect or client. That is uncalled for and needs to change. I do think it would help females in the profession to get out on site and throw some cursing right back their way. Some good "communication" always helps.

That said I think age discrimination exsists for both women and men. Many times contractors and clients feel I'm inexperienced given my age. When doing a building survey they were more apt to talk w/my cad tech 15ys my senior, even though he wasn't the designer at all.

What a timely post. I just picked up a book at the library called "Creating a Life." I am only half way finished with but so far it addresses this issue in the business world as a whole. It is written for young (20-ish) women and discusses, essentially the choice that women have to make to be ultra-successful in a career or in family. It seems to me that a woman that has the drive and intelligence to be a great architect, or any other title, would be also be strongly aware of the complexities of motherhood and want to strive for perfection in that profession as well. Many women in all professions postpone family life for this reason, that they don't want to do motherhood half-heartedly (and shouldn't as it is an extremely important societal role), and so they either drop out to pursue that or postpone parenting until it is to late, biologically.

The book I mentioned claims that pursuing both, as many people would like to do, is more difficult in the US and UK than in other western countries because of a lack of social concern for help in childcare, flex-time, etc. Within the profession the problem is that understandably the small firms that most of us work for just can't feasibly provide us with the benefits that other professions take for granted (for me personally the big thing is health care) and at the same time there still remains the firmly entrenched idea that a good architect must work overtime and that nothing should be more important than our career.

Design IS important, but that is different than the "job" part of it.

This post is entierly sexist and reinforcing negative solutions to perceived problems. 50/50 is a half-baked idea with numerous problems. even is the problem actually exists, their "solution" is equally if not more problematic.

TED, I suspect you misread me, or I wasn't clear. What I said, or tried to, is that the female architect in her mid 30's who shows up on a job site will command more respect from contractors than will the one in her 20's, because the contractor will think she has more experience and has stuck it out long enough in the field to know what she's talking about. This is equally true for males, actually.

And, a mid-30's architect does have more confidence in his/her experience and knowledge, and this is apparent to others, which also commands more respect.

I have put in my time in the trenches as a youngster, and as a mid-career architect I have far fewer problematic interactions with contractors than I did as a cute 20-something.

My advice to stephanie is to try to hang in there so you can reap the rewards later. I realize that doesn't really help now, but it might make you feel more optimistic.

Or put it this way - the incredibly brilliant and talented but boyish-looking guy in our office had to grow a beard to get contractors to take him more seriously.

I'm growing a beard. If I show up on site looking like ZZ Top that'll command some respect.

2 women that were huge inspirations to me in my schooling and practice >>

marion weiss: a studio prof of mine, she showed me how much i could achieve on my own.
paulett taggart: while working for her, she showed me how to run a small business.

my comments are above and beyond the enormous amount that they thought me about design. i am forever grateful to them.

My school's student architecture association arranged a women in architecture discussion panel a few years ago. It contained all the female faculty and all the wives of the male faculty that were architects. The total was a 5. It was pathetic. Most of the questions geared towards them were balancing family and work (posed by graduate students who were starting families). One professor asked us THIS question.

Women have been in architecture school for a while now, so why aren't those numbers being reflected in the workforce?

I too went to a school where there were more women in studio than men (I think my class was the last 50/50 class).

I am working at a large firm now, and there are quite a few women here, but not 50%. Also, the principals are almost all men (I think 1 woman who is in the financial administrator not an architect is a principal). What struck me more than the lack of women, is the lack of minorities. There are quite a few Asians (the city is 20% Asian), but minorities make up less than 20 of the 200 people in the office (architects and non-architects).

It is not just architecture. When I was in school, I would complain to my roommate about how there were only 3 female faculty members, and you had the possiblity of never taking classes from 2 of them. She would tell me that she was one of the 3 women in her department (Civil Engineering).

So sahar and others...What are you personally going to do? Aside from the unavoidable boneheads I haven't come across a lot of men who think women are incapable of leading the field, so that isn't the problem. (I am open to the idea that I am wrong with this assumption). Is there an up and coming group of women who plan to assume principal positions, especcially in larger firms. And by this I mean, do you have specific plans on how to get there, especcially how does having children, or not, fit in? Like it or not this is one of the major challenges and decisions facing women.

Museschild writes: "so shanec, your idea about the way little boys & girls play making them better or worse architects doesn't really add up."

Listen, the biggest barrier to prejudice these days has got to be the whole PC veil we put over things that threaten our social status-quo.

My DIRECT experience has shaped my own view of the sex-split in architecture. You can't really argue with my experience, just as I can't argue with yours... and I'm not trying to. Throughout grad school and in my work experience I have spent countless hours walking people through the specific mechanics of construction, CAD, modeling and rendering, even PRINTING for gosh sakes. Guys tend to figure it out for themselves, girls tend to either avoid the issues entirely (3D modeling is a big one) or rely on their male colleagues to fill that role.
WHICH IS ABSOLUTELY FINE WITH ME. We all fill different roles in this profession, and there are PLENTY of things I am no good at and am MORE than happy to rely on my teamates for. Organization and concensus being two big ones!

As I said, these are not "opinions" I'm expressing, these are experiences. Maybe the rest of the architecture world is 180degrees different from my experiences, but the best I can do is operate on the knowledge that I do have, and go from there.

ANd YES, I am SURE that there are a healthy spread of tomboys (even hot, smart, feminine ones) out there are MUCH more capable than I at the tasks I've listed, but it would be really lame if those people actually would have us believe that they were the majority.

http://www.construction.com/NewsCenter/it/news/20021205a.asp

I think the librarian Barbie won in the end.

I’m not interested in sitting around discussing gender issues with a bunch of dudes (that’s part of the problem) especially dudes as clueless as Shanec. However, instead of using the excuse that “women� aren’t interested in the “important� issues (computer modeling? Important?) in architecture we could do a bit of realizing that a lot of what gets looked as important or interesting in architecture at the moment is pretty specific to the interests of a small segment of the male population. Specifically insecure, sexually repressed, video game geeks. When these people get threatened by things like critical theory (which brings in academic culture which is much more diverse) or discourses about the body or even materiality or perception this gets declared “over� or “irrelevant� and replaced with MathCAD and “surfaces�. If you want a “practical� example, there are a lot more women (even hot, smart, feminine ones) in interiors and interiors make a lot more money than architects and, while they may not get the same respect this is a pretty big index of their relation to what people actually desire in their environment, ditto, graphic design or media or whatever.

The more pointless and self indulgent and escapist our profession becomes the more it will become the province of neurotic losers with ego issues and the less appealing it will be to anyone trying to effect real change in the world.

Have fun fixing the plotter dude.

"Guys tend to figure it out for themselves, girls tend to either avoid the issues entirely" ha ha

my personal experience about differences between guys and gals: guys tend to pretend to know all the answers even when they don't have a clue. They call this "confidence"

women lack "confidence"

- it's what makes us good listeners and critical thinkers, we are observant and intuitive.

architecture is a profession requiring savvy - assuming a lot of stuff without really knowing for sure and balancing a complex problem with many unknowns without too much trouble. guys are good at this. architecture is also about finesse - an investigation into to the proper arrangement and attitude of spaces. women tend to be good at this.

ever notice how the one up and coming "minority" in design is the gay man - best of both worlds? coincidence? or the effeminant man?

Has the profession not set itself up over the years to recognize this typically male characteristic "confidence" and regard it higher than any other skill including design, design communication, and project management?

From my experiences, I totally agree there are not enough women in the firms I worked for, mostly small firms 10-30 people. And all the bosses except one who is an Interior designer are men. Even more strange, there are hardly any women I worked with have children. They are either married too late, or divorced. Going to have a child myself, I'm quite concerned about my career. I don't have people to draw experiences from or look up too. I don't think women are not as capable as men in the field in any sense.

I think lack of women in architecture field and any other professional field is related to lack of social support in childcare and family. I heard school dismissed at 3:00 or 4:00 in the afternoon, what a professional women suppose to do? To leave work and pick their children then? Things got even worse with architects because financially disadvantages. I think maybe all the professional woman should organize to demand more support from the society, paid maternity leave, more flexible time, and more supportive daycare and school, which will match the work hours.

adding to my above post.

"confidence" in women is called "bitch"

newstreamlinedmodel writes:

"If you want a “practical� example, there are a lot more women (even hot, smart, feminine ones) in interiors and interiors make a lot more money than architects and, while they may not get the same respect this is a pretty big index of their relation to what people actually desire in their environment, ditto, graphic design or media or whatever.

The more pointless and self indulgent and escapist our profession becomes the more it will become the province of neurotic losers with ego issues and the less appealing it will be to anyone trying to effect real change in the world.

Have fun fixing the plotter dude."

Um, you talk like somebody who's still in junior high. "hey lets all change the world". Whoa. Easy there.

First of all, pretty funny. Secondly, YES! You hit the nail on the head. Actually making architecture is heavily involved in the "making shit" and "putting stuff together" categories of time investment... and these don't involve "critical theory". YES! There are more women in interiors and graphics and YES they make more money!!! THATS GREAT! Putting skills and interest together to do something that is fun and profitable!

But the question was why there were so few women practicing in architecture and I have attemped to give you all MY OWN PERSONAL experience as evidence.

I mean COME ON... who will actually have the cahones to admit that BUILDING/MAKING SHIT is more attractive to guys than for girls??? Lets see the big picture here folks, architecture school is real "arty" but when you get into the field its much more nuts and bolts stuff, and those that have no interest in doing that kind of work tend to drop off. Hence the difference between women in school and women in practice. SURE there are lots of other issues that factor into it but COME ON... lets call a horse a horse here.

I'm trying to flush out a larger argument here by being a bit extreme, of COURSE there are women in this profession that I look up to and respect, and of COURSE there are women colleages that I have a lot of respect and admiration for... but the first step that nobody seems to want to take is to ACCEPT that men and women are VERY DIFFERENT and that those DIFFERENCES affect their professional lives.

So tell me, then. Why do YOU think there are fewer women then men in our profession?

Is the "man" keeping you down somehow? Is it baby-making? Or is it, as you've stated, a GOOD thing that there are fewer women because the architecture world sucks anyway?

How fucking hard is it to admit that chicks and dudes think different!!!! Damn, too much PC bullshit in some of our veins.

strawbeary, I couldn't agree more with your comments about confidence/arrogance. I had deleted a former comment before posting because I couldn't explain this correctly, but you nailed it. the biggest thing I struggle with as a young architect is knowing when to ask questions, when not to ask questions, who to ask, and trying to figure out whether I'm an idiot or just someone with only a year of experience.

I don't think that is uncommon for someone my age. I do think, in this particular instance, that many men will have the advantage over women in that ~generally~, boys don't have it drilled into their pigtailed heads to be modest, self-deprecating, polite, cute, sweet, and nice, as are girls; which ~generally~ leads to women who have learned to compromise and be diplomatic. I do think that this confidence which men tend to display is important and valuable, and I am learning a lot from my male coworkers on this end (ie, how to bullshit); but men may have a lot to learn from women about being diplomatic and subtle and not shooting off at the mouth. can be a benefit in terms of client retention.

Regarding shanec's very valid point of one's experience shading one's opinion, my experience in school was this: 7 women, 23 men in my graduating class, top 3 students were female. my current office has a male majority within the architecture department, but is owned by a woman and that seems to set a positive tone throughout the office in terms of gender, in that it doesn't become an issue. i don't know what the policies for maternity/paternity leave are off the top of my head, but since the principals have small children there is generally a family-friendly atmosphere. schedules are also very flexible, enabling one father to come in at 7:00 and leave at 4:00 to be with his kids.

Oh, another thing I've observed:

Chicks LOVE to draw curvy shit in plans but then have NO idea how do build it.

Great post, strawbeary. Confidence and determinism in women is almost always labelled bitchiness.

We recently had a consultant who was selected by the client tell the client he thought our drawing set was inadequate and full of holes. This would have been true if he had actually been reviewing a CD set rather than a DD set - he didn't realize his mistake. I told our in-house team - NOT the client or anyone else - "I think X is just being a bitch". The ensuing (mostly) good-humored clamor about me using that term for a man nearly derailed the entire meeting.

I think women need to "take back" the word bitch by applying it to men when they are, actually, just being bitchy. As it is now, men use it to describe women whenevr we do pretty much anything.

indeed, liberty. oh shanec, i have worked for a couple of men who draw curvy shit with out a clue either. it goes both ways. ignorance is not gender specific.

"oh shanec, i have worked for a couple of men who draw curvy shit with out a clue either. it goes both ways. ignorance is not gender specific."

You are very right. My comment was, sadly, just meant to get a rise out of people.

Female architects should all don this fasion statement and start a revolution.

"the biggest thing I struggle with as a young architect is knowing when to ask questions, when not to ask questions, who to ask, and trying to figure out whether I'm an idiot or just someone with only a year of experience."

yeh- i struggle with that too after three years still. all the male architects hate it when I ask questions. why? cause they don't know the answers to my questions and they have to make up an answer.

"ever notice how the one up and coming "minority" in design is the gay man - best of both worlds? coincidence? or the effeminant man?

Has the profession not set itself up over the years to recognize this typically male characteristic "confidence" and regard it higher than any other skill including design, design communication, and project management?"

Right on. My mom always said she thought it would be a great career move if I were to be gay. She was joking but she was right.

One other thing that I haven't mentioned yet is this: Women make better managers. The female project managers that I have met have ROCKED. SO there you go, I want a female boss. The bitchier the better =).

fashion

women make better communicators

strawbeary, your description is very similar to my own experience. i happily join the applause!

liberty bell, that is such a great idea!

can we start with the obvious example?

shanec....you bitch.

:)

"but men may have a lot to learn from women about being diplomatic and subtle and not shooting off at the mouth. can be a benefit in terms of client retention."

Word.

well that's what you wanted, right? you've been asking for it since the first post. it's been fun 'reading' your increasingly incendiary comments be ignored, but we can move on now and actually discuss this issue.

strawbeary, i say ask whenever you damn well please. if you don't know, ask. if you aren't sure, ask. who cares if someone else hates your question. it's their problem that they fear looking stupid. and if they are making up an answer, call them on that shit. they should check their ego at the door. asking questions should never be discouraged. the consequence of not asking is that you'll grow up to be just as ill-informed as the guy sitting next to you.

dude, i was practicing. come on. if you want women to be more confident, you have to let us be more like you, right?

e... but asking questions shows lack of "confidence." get my point?

"shanec....you bitch."

Snap. Snap. Talk to the hand sister=).

oh, i hear you strawbeary, but ignorance is real. "confidence" is not.

Museschild

"Specifically insecure, sexually repressed, video game geeks. When these people get threatened by things like critical theory (which brings in academic culture which is much more diverse) or discourses about the body or even materiality or perception this gets declared “over� or “irrelevant� and replaced with MathCAD and “surfaces�. "

Ouch. Talk about prejudice.

BUT YOU WIN THE PRIZE! Sort of...

I was STOKED when the new GTA came out (SAN ANDREAS, BABY)... not insecure (damn, I hope not anyway... maybe you can point out how I'm obviously insecure based on my posts somehow)... or sexually repressed (just trust me on that one).

Big Micheal Hayes fan, are you? Not that into Mr. P. Scott Cohen?

Well... lets see... sounds like someone doesn't get along with the computer, but likes to read a LOT. Case in point. See above posts.

I should stop now before I get fired by my female boss FOR NOT DOING A DAMN THING TODAY.

Cheers.

dude, I think you have me confused with someone else. check your thread. personally, I get along quite well with the computer and fielded several Revit questions from 2 male colleagues just today...oh wait, here's another one, gotta go.

museschild writes:

"I get along quite well with the computer and fielded several Revit questions from 2 male colleagues just today...oh wait, here's another one, gotta go."

Fielding Revit questions? Approaching geek-hood yourself there.

Okay bitches, back to the real post.

There are several women posting here. Why or what MAY sway you to remove yourself from the architecture career path? I'll start.

Glass ceiling, aka the good ol boys club aka I'll scratch your back and you scratch mine. Statistics show women making 70 cents on the dollar in architecture. It is real, and it is lame.

Family - We desire a one person income household and one stay at home parent. He can't be the stay at home cause one architecture career cannot sutain a family. Given the choice between letting my kid grow up in daycare and this career, I pick my kid. We feel this is our duty to society to raise good kids.

Too high of standards, expectations. Emotional strain, frustration.

Lack of real role models, mentors, confidants to relate to.

Linear path of gaining experience, becoming a respected architect doesn't allow for any wandering or exploring.

Strawberry writes:

"Glass ceiling, aka the good ol boys club aka I'll scratch your back and you scratch mine."

Sorry, you wanted women's responses... but I have an honest question. I hear about the "goodolboys club" a lot... but I have NEVER actually seen it in action... and by the schools I've gone to and the office I work for God knows I should have seen it by now.

Am I in it and don't know it? Am I too dumb to see it? When does the "club" convene, and what do they do that serves to push the men onward and upward and leave women behind? These are not rhetorical questions, I really want to know.

I will admit, its easier to see the barriers if you are behind one... harder when you're on the other side of it.

I, for one, see the "good ol boys club" as a $$$ thing rather than as a gender thing... and it AIN'T just boys that belong (Williams and Tsien, boutique firms up the wazoo, etc...) And I see the $$$ club in action EVERY day, beleive me.

Again, really just an honest question... not looking for an argument.

i'll take 1 and 2. i didn't believe the glass ceiling existed until i saw the unbelieving eyes of a colleague with similar education when i told him what his firm was offering me. he was embarrased.

family: i'm not there yet but it will eventually come. it does seem that in the states it is harder to manage. in south america there is no such thing as parental leave [that how it's called?] but things are looser, somehow easier to manage... easier and harder i guess. let me think about that one.

i'm not sure about the standards because i think guys can argue the exact same thing...

i like kazujo sejima [sp?] as a role model, heard her talk once and she seemed just like her buildings: quiet, elegant, smart.

i'd say the linear path argument is not gender specific.

strwabearys last point resonates with me even though i'm not a woman. i worked in architecture for about 10 years at a variety of places. i started to get bored. i started to wonder what's next. i started to admire ray and charles eames and i read a book by olt aicher "the world as design." i was inspired to try something different. i left architecture for a graphic design position which lead to an industrial design position. while doing id, i also did a good bit of application design, interaction design and web design. i now work for myself doing mostly print and digital design.

when i left architecture, i noticed that my femaie friends reacted differently than my male friend to the change. the ladies said, "wow, that's great. how wonderful. i'm so happy for you" the men said, " really. why? why do you want to give up?" who said anything about giving up? i want to wander and explore as strawbeary said. my conclusion what that men view success in a very linear way. intern leads to designer leads to project head lead to studio head lead to the big cheese. climb the mountain boys. women see success as the cumulation of experiences and events. it not the path but the journey that is important. i'm still overwhelmed by the success of ray and charles eames. their breadth is so inspiring and impressive.

i don't think that is nessecarily a male/female way of looking at life or time. working your way up the ladder can be a culmination of experiences and events as well. it just happens to be the more acceptable route of growing professionally.

glass ceiling fucking blows.

good old boys definately do exist. and i am going out on a limb and saying, especially in less metropolitain areas.

i do not desire to have children for many career related reasons.

hey hey stephanie, settle down there. you have to wait till your mid 30's and really show us that you are committed to THE PROFESSION[and your not going to quickly run out to follow your biological clock...]. else clearly you only having fun at this point in time.

signed
TED for liberty bell.

sorry lb. couldnt resist.

pre-aalto

i just wish female architects could be able to have a slew of illegitemate love children while well on their way to international fame.

be careful what you wish for ....you may have a slew of archinect members [in approved t-shirst of course] showing up on your doorsteps.

has anyone on here been pregnant while practicing?

oo thats a thread killer if i ever saw one as you will get this long silence........if the practice is 20/80 women to men it appears archinect is 5/95....... i remeber a discussion on archinect v1. but cant say i remember anyone here ....maybe mum?

cha-ching!

little boys and girls go make sure you have wads of money if you want to move up in architecture.

shanec seems to be one of the few people that are able to drill down to the core of the argument: its not about being black/ green/ a chick/ a dude/ straight/ gay/ bi/ membership in the good ol boys club or not...

Architecture is a rich people's club! its the williams and tsien/ thompson rose/ maya lin/ Laurinda Spear, Elizabeth Plater-Zyberk, Marilyn Taylor, Zaha Hadid, Toshiko Mori... I am not discounting their talents but the reality is that they have the cash to be able to do what they want.

Like i said a few post back, in the picture in the opening post, David Adjaye may be a black man but he is for sure NOT a broke black man. Gender, etnicity and economic (dis)advantage are not related. Until people realize this critical distinction we will be wasting efforts going after the wrong problem.

its not a glass ceiling holding people back. its their empty wallets and broke bank accounts that keep them back.

Would it matter if this moneyed architect recently written up in the NYTimes was a man/ woman or smurf blue colored?



January 9, 2005

HABITATS

Architect's Magnificent Obsession

By PENELOPE GREEN

HE apartment had all the flourishes you would expect from a young and prolific architect: the vintage modernist furniture (a little Mies, some Florence Knoll, a chair by Bruno Mathsson); the muted palette of gray, black and brown; the gallery-quality black-and-white photographs (mostly Wayne Maser and the haunting botanical portraits of Don Freeman). It's all very precise, and it's all in the details.

But the architect, Stephan Jaklitsch, 37, whose extreme good taste has shaped all the Marc Jacobs stores worldwide (that's nearly 50, and still counting) and who has been running his own 17-person firm for six and a half years, has amped the aesthetic volume up so high in his Horatio Street one-bedroom that only the most educated ears can pick up the frequency. For instance, on the coffee table, sitting casually at magazine level (not that there were any unsightly magazines) was a tiny celadon bowl the color of a grasshopper's wing. It turned out to be about a century or two older than most objects in the room.

Mr. Jaklitsch took about 15 seconds to find the bowl's pedigree papers - it's Chinese, from the Qianlong Dynasty (1736-95) - which were filed neatly in a Florence Knoll credenza nearby. Nearly as quickly, he offered a delicate Chinese terra cotta vessel weighing no more than a sheet of paper, its clay skin imprinted by a faint basket-weave pattern. Its papers declared that its year of birth was somewhere between 475 B.C. and 221 B.C.

Slightly built and with a husky voice and impish smile, Mr. Jaklitsch looked considerably younger than his age. An hour or so later, shrugging on his Marc Jacobs peacoat, he in fact looked much like a graduating senior from a prep school in the Northeast - Andover, maybe, or St. Paul's. Except that his peacoat was lined in sable, and his dorm room gewgaws have been bought on the Hollywood Road in Hong Kong.

"I've had friends walk in and say: 'What is the story in this room? How does the Asian stuff work with the modern? I don't get it!" Mr. Jaklitsch said. "The story is just that I respond to anything that is rigorously designed."

Which explains why this lover of Mies is living in an archetypal prewar apartment building - one of five Emery Roth buildings designed for the real estate developers Bing & Bing in Greenwich Village just before the Depression (and the only one that's a co-op; the other four, at 59, 299 and 302 West 12th Street and 45 Christopher Street, are condos). It's sort of a joke, Mr. Jaklitsch said, but kind of true that when he learned that Mies van der Rohe had, in fact, lived in a prewar building himself, Mr. Jaklitsch thought he "could cope with this one."

Also, as he pointed out, it's rigorously designed; its gracious proportions are an Emery Roth signature. R. A. Sassone, a vice president at the Corcoran Group who handles sales in many of the five Bing & Bing buildings, said it's a truism among fans of the Village quintet that if you are blindfolded and led into one, "you can't tell which building you're in." All have the same low and lovely beamed ceilings, brick fireplaces and cloistered bedrooms. Mr. Jaklitsch said he loved the proportions of his 800-square-foot home, bought in early 2002 for $441,000. (At an open house for the apartment, which had been on the market for just four days, Mr. Jaklitsch was one of 90 people sidling through its rooms. He found the owner, shook his hand and said, "Here's the asking price and here's my phone number.")

For a guy who spends four days each week traveling, it was imperative he find a quiet sanctuary for the few hours he has to himself. (Last year, Marc Jacobs stores opened in Boston, Beijing, Shanghai and Los Angeles; including the Marc Jacobs stores on deck for this year and beyond, Mr. Jaklitsch's firm right now has 45 projects on its drafting tables.) "The pace of work is relentless," he said happily.

Mr. Jaklitsch resurfaced the apartment's walls and replaced moldings long since vanished to restore it to a crisp 1929 state. He didn't touch its closet-sized kitchen and funky tiled bathroom. Set at the back of the building, the apartment is as quiet as a house on a suburban cul-de-sac. Mr. Jacklitsch has no television set, and the cellphone reception is lousy. "And since I'm never here to return calls on the land line," he said, "people have learned not to use that number."

Since moving to New York City in 1994, Mr. Jaklitsch, who grew up in Maryland and took his architecture degree at Princeton, has lived in the same four-block section of the West Village. "I hate the grid," he said, "and I love the trees."

Like many architects, Mr. Jaklitsch calls himself a generalist and does not stamp his clients' spaces in his own image. A West Village town house is all steel and hearty rough-hewn beams; another town house a few blocks away is a 19th-century paneled homage to itself. Five years ago, a contractor recommended Mr. Jaklitsch to Robert Duffy, Marc Jacobs's business partner, when Mr. Duffy wanted to renovate his own Fifth Avenue apartment.

Mr. Jaklitsch has since completed a town house for Mr. Duffy and designed every Marc Jacobs store, in collaboration with the French furniture designer Christian Liaigre, beginning with the company's second, in San Francisco, in August 2000.

"He is demanding as hell," Mr. Jaklitsch said of Mr. Duffy. It was clearly a compliment.


Mr. Duffy later doffed his own hat to Mr. Jaklitsch. "He has incredibly good taste - and he would hate for me to say that," Mr. Duffy said. "I love watching him on these safaris through the antiques stores in Hong Kong, evaluating and choosing and falling in love with a perfect bowl. I like that his apartment is so orderly and so neat, and that maybe there is this one perfect object on display that I know - because I've seen him do it - he's agonized over. And in our work together, I need the integrity of what he does to make what I want be good."

Mr. Jaklitsch is indeed so in love with good design he's arrayed silver-framed photographs of great buildings on a mantel and a side table like family portraits. You'll peer into them expecting to see the grinning faces of small children (Mr. Jaklitsch has 24 nieces and nephews). Instead, you'll see a snapshot of the Japanese Imperial Palace, or the Parthenon, his favorite building.

His second favorite is the Resurrection Chapel in Stockholm - a riot of classical details. He'll eagerly point out its intricacies, and the fact that its architect, Sigurd Lewerentz, designed it with two proportional systems, one for the inside and one for the exterior.

"No one could know that just by looking," he said, lauding Lewerentz's obsessiveness. "But he knew, and it mattered to him. I love that."

So, a visitor wondered, taking in the pristine space around her, did Mr. Jaklitsch consider himself to be in any way obsessive?

"Completely," he said. "Have you ever met an architect who wasn't?"

i think that the perception that "Architecture" requires a lot of money is an extremely narrow perception of what architecture is.

it is a narrow one, but i think it is accurate of how most practice architecture.

There was an article in the L.A. Times in August 2003. It contained interviews with several women in demanding architectural positions.

I can't figue out how to post it as a link, and the LA times wants to be paid for their online articles.

Where does architectural clout come from?
It doesn't come from my degree.
It doesn't come from licensure.
It doesn't come from AIA membership.

It comes from my pedigree.

money makes it easier but it is another parameter in the equation.

maybe it's stronger than gender, but that doesn't mean gender is not an issue.

if you live in capitalism, money will always be an issue, that is harder to change.

glass ceiling: when gender related, is easier to change and is what we are talking about.

that and the perception that women are unable or unwilling to do specific tasks within architecture.

maybe the stress of the profession is too much for women...just a thought.

i did 2 architectural degrees, and let me tell you my observations (not a generalization, and actual true account):

women cried on a regular basis. they had all of the nervous breakdowns. they took out their frustration on their bodies (in an unhealthy way). the ones i knew were all on perscription drugs. the scene/culture bred unhealthy women. this is not to say that the guys weren't messed up...but somehow, they (we) hid it. it's probably why we're ego-maniacle cheaters in the later years.

I have the amazing good fortune to work in a firm with 1 female partner – that’s 25% of the partners, which is pretty high in architecture. She has been an incredible role model and inspiration for me, as she has kids and a full life outside of the firm, but is also an enormously influential force within the office. Our office is very family friendly. The men in our firm don’t have to worry about being seen as “weak” or not dedicated if they take an early afternoon every now and then to go see their son’s soccer game, or whatever. Our firm also offers a great benefits package, which is critical to families. Having to pay daycare cost plus healthcare costs can just make working unaffordable.

Warning! This post from here gets slightly graphic regarding pregnancy and breastfeeding, so if that stuff freaks you out skip it…

If not for the example of my female boss, I could easily have been derailed by having a child. Pregnancy while practicing is NOT easy – your body is demanding so much energy to make a child, and by the time I got pregnant (mid-30s) my body was well over being able to pull all-nighters without being wrecked for a week after. Nonetheless, while pregnant I also taught a design studio, took on two freelance jobs, and worked on renovating my house. I think architecture school charettes prepared me – all of us - to work harder than many people think they are capable of. So working my butt off through morning sickness then while hauling around 30+ pounds on my belly didn’t seem all that demanding – although it was definitely not a cakewalk. The hardest part is before you can tell anyone you’re pregnant, when you feel so nauseous and weak and miserable from morning sickness but can’t explain to your colleagues why you are working slowly and might break down in hormonal exhausted tears at any moment.

My boss, the female partner, had gone through breastfeeding while back at work, and I was also fortunate that one other woman in the office gave birth three months before I did – so we actually commandeered the carpet/fabric sample closet as a pumping room. Other women architects I know had to pump in the bathroom – not nice – so I was incredibly fortunate to have an understanding firm in this regard. I feel confident that had I not been at this firm, I would have not been able to go back to work at three months as I did. I am also blessed to have a wonderful daycare that I think is doing a better job of teaching my child than I could have, anyway. We all make choices, and though daycare is often seen as being a poor second choice to a stay-at-home mom, I disagree. But I also found a really, really good daycare.

A new-mother friend who is also an architect changed jobs to a firm where she could work part time two months after going back to work – the original firm’s policy on working hours was unacceptable for a new parent, of either gender. They famously do not have many women working there, blow through handfuls of interns every year because they just get burned out, and honestly no one from that firm that I see at AIA functions or lectures ever seems very happy – they all look so grim about architecture, and what’s the point? Her husband had good benefits through his job, so she was able to take that out of the equation when she made her decision to “downshift” her career.

Anyway – I work in an extremely supportive environment and I am certain it’s because we have one female partner, and I’m equally certain that the her influence here is the main reason I am able to be a full-time working architect new mother (add to that my incredibly supportive husband who takes on a lot of the baby-care responsibilities).

As I see it, family issues are the number one problem facing women in architecture. But I don’t see those problems being specific to architecture, I think any profession has them, so I’m skeptical that the 50/50 campaign is needed, I think we just need an overall change in attitude towards the importance of working – I think people’s social and mental lives need to be seen as equally important to their job success.

Very funny TED – but did you ever hear one of those bubbly undergrad students say something like: “Oh, I love doing construction, I especially love doing demolition! It’s so much fun to swing a sledgehammer!” We young architecture students have no idea how f’ing hard it is to be a contractor, and I think we often come across to laborers as big clueless children, hanging out on the construction site because it’s fun, and I think young women interns might be particularly prone to be perceived in that way – do you get my meaning?

And yes I was one of those girls until I spent three months worth of weekends tearing down half my house – demolition sucks.

:-\
i worked construction for two summers as an undergrad and i did love it.
it was hard work, but i learned a lot.

if i ever get a woman pregnant, i'm gonna ask for my own private area to breast feed too!

we all need bosses/work environments like liberty's. it seems like they understand that the most important asset they have is the long term retention of their employees. that means keeping them happy and showing them that they matter. i've worked in so many places that don't understand this fundamental point.

mee tooo

yes, e - and this is my point about the 50/50 campaign: the office policies that make women happy tend to be the ones that make employees, especially those with families, happy. I don't see that we need to focus specifically on making the work environment better for women, just for people in general.

We have exceptional retention and loyalty in our firm.

And please no one take from my posts that I'm some rabid feminist man-hater - I love men, and I'm glad men and women are different.

i love that in my practice, you can be an integral/intimate part of a project, then get pregnant and force my hand to hold your job while you spawn...all the while costing me more money/resources/stress to find a replacement while you create your little gang-banger.

not to mention the additional load on your co-workers...they must looooove you for that. lol.

ps...sarcasm is my friend!

Cant architects afford to pay to hire a good wet nurse? all the wall street throphy wives are doing it.

never thought you were a man-hater liberty. these are issues that impact all of us.

Liberty, and others - it is great to hear women in the profession discuss women/family related issues. Often when I am among other women architects I feel like I am being looked down up on simply for being married (even without kids). Perhaps I give myself a persecution complex but many of the strong women that I would like to be influence/be influenced by and share my ideas with seem to think that I have subjected myself to the enemy and am now only thinking about what I will cook for my next dinner party.

I imagine that will increase with the addition of children. I guess what I am saying is that pressure and judgement doesn't only come from men in the profession.

that is very right, but i've found that pressure and judgement come in unbalanced work places.

job 1 for me in the states: big corporate office, few women architects, lots of snickering, competition, hostility between women-. talked to someone that quit a few months before me and found she had had the exact same experience, but we had both been too embarrased to talk about it.

job 2 in the states: medium sized office with one woman partner, gender basically a non issue, my relationship with other women in the firm was friendly and basically normal.

and liberty, i like your point that better quality of life for the employees and consideration for family issues is not gender specific and results in a better work environment.

I don't know what my companies policies are on pregnancy, leave of absence type stuff. Is that crazy? I am afraid to ask. I do know that 2 out 2 women (one arch and one interior) who got pregnant since I've been here don't work here any more. I can only imagine what happened. From my perspective it appearred too unmanagedable for them.
setsquareboy - It did suck when all of the sudden someone was gone and the rest of us had to fill in. But that's life - literally.
Are other women aware of policy in your firms? It's something you just don't talk about here. Is this something you have discussed at interview time whether in a bad or good way?
A woman friend of mine told me once about an interview where she was grilled on "what are you going to do when you start a family? how do you think you can have a career and kids? what's your timeline for having kids?" It dominated the interview and made her disgusted. Needlesstosay she didn't want to work there.
I'm afraid this flavor of male management is common to a certain degree everywhere in my neck of the backwards woods where we aren't as progressive as the coasts.

Not to throw a bomb out there but what roles do sexuality play in our gender discussions? Is it easier to be a gay designer? Do lesbian architects experience the same glass ceiling as women?

i have often seen that gay classmates/ fellow workers are perceived to have better taste and to be better designers and that lesbians are judged less critically about their (in)sensitivity and or toughness.

and as Seinfeld and George said, "not that there is anything wrong with that." just pointing out some observations.

i out-design all the fags i know. lesbians too! i'm so good that i often get misstaken for a homer. however, that might have more to do with the way i dress and how i do my hair...

I'm fairly certain that an employer asking personal questions, especcially since it is in regards to a hypothetical future event, in illegal. Vague question that could be addressed to anyone such as, how long do you plan to stay with the firm, are all right. They must be questions that are or could be relevant to all applicants such questions or else they are discriminatory. Unless you currently have kids, or I guess if you are currently pregnant, it isn't really pertinent and since you probably don't want to work for someone who is asking these questions you might as well go ahead and tell them that.

setsquareboy,

We have all thus been quite civil in or disagreents and or commentary. I implore you, let us not sink this thread to philistine levels. Have respect and use language that conveys that respect to all. This is not a frat basement.