Apparent one-sidedness completely unintended. Just a random string of questions.

Anyhoo, I agree with you on quantity time. Of course you want your time to mean something, but at two it probably means more that you're there at all, (and not important that you're there playing the cello and making a gourmet meal. 2 year olds don't really care..) Some of my architect friends barely see their kids just to have them whisked away because they're getting home at bed time rather than dinner time.

Does anyone think that there is a double standard in offices for fathers versus mothers who want to leave early or have a flexible week? Do fathers face less opportunity to be promoted in the corporate environment if they express a desire to be at home more?

Are there any of you architect dads out there that have tried a flexible schedule and had it expressly work or not work?

Career and kids mix as well as oil and water... (just an opinion driven by my own experience, a lot of you will probably disagree with that statement)
I've given up on the idea of a career, my kid's just more inportant than my selfish thirst for design and glory at the moment, something that would have been unimagineable a few years back when i was still full of ideals and driven by ambition, and not a parent. I've had to make huge concessions and i don't regret that at all when i watch her growing up and how amazing she is. Raising a kid brings new feelings, things that you cannot grasp until you become a parent, I guess it's just a project on its own...

I never imagined that having a baby was going to change my whole life. The first 3 months are a real pain. The baby cried day and night. So you the mother will have to breast feed (if you choose to) and deal with sleeping issues.
After struggling for months trying to be a superwoman (a working mom) I decided to stay back home till my son can speak, go to the bathroom by himself, etc. He is almost there, and I am crazy for some social interaction. I don't know how the time off will affect my career, but I've used this time to get licensed.
In the end I don't feel I am wasting my time, after all my son is my best design yet!

i have been with a number of firms where women just drop off the radar because the firms normal working hours exceed 50-60 hours per week and if they choose a more conventional 40 hours a week they are percieved as being lightweights and not committed to take on responsibity. dont know why men in the office, choose to have children and for the most part, dont back off from this situation[not in all cases but i would say the majority]. i worked with one bloak who took off 4 hours so his wife can have their 2nd child. nice.

what i can not understand is why notions of job sharing or a part time meaningful role hasnt taken off.

\get in a situation to be in control of your own time and work for yourself if you have the opportunity or connect it with a teaching position in a university. definitly look at what is the most important think in your life and try not to be the super-person. each role will suffer.

you tend to work hard and your salary just pays for the child care cost.

It is a shame that today it seems like a luxury to stay home with children, for mothers or fathers who feel they'd like to try less office hours and more family time. It's hard to have a normal life working 60 hour weeks withOUT kids. The idea of a "meaningful part-time role" is intriguing. There are always tasks in architecture (like doing quality control / marking up construction documents for example) that don't necessarily require an office presence. Most CAD software is 'portable,' and clients can be reached by phone. We have so much technology to theoretically cut down on hours and raise efficiency, but we're just expected to do more with less fee and time.

I've read that children who are parked in group day care at a young age are more likely to be aggressive towards other children and show less empathy than those who remain at home with a parent until 5 or 6. I've also read that that is total hogwash and daycare is fine. I'm not sure what to believe, but we all have to decide what we want and ultimately why we want it. I do believe life is too short to be spent behind a monitor, or for the sake of vanity. Architecture is one of those professions with enough appeal to make you forget that sometimes, no matter the misery.

I also feel a little duped into NEEDing all that two incomes provides. It's hard to give up the objects we're accustomed to. We have expensive educations and taste, but not the salaries (with minor exception) to sustain it. It's an expensive world we live in, and often we work for the sake of being able to pay the tax man.

Thanks all for weighing in.

My wife stays at home with our 17 month baby, it's rough but we think it is best. We're going for number two, and hopefully she can be back to work in a couple of years. For now I think the value of a stay at home mom (or dad) is far better than the quality of life that could be achieved by two salaried parents, with a kid in childcare.

You guys sound sincere, and I tell you when your in the middle of it it feels as though its a tough go but when your out and on the otherside your work commitment and effort to raise kids is totally worth it. Just look at kids who went to daycare as a youngster, never met one I wanted my kids to play with. Really just some words of encouragement from a guy who started a family and my own firm at the same time ( what was I thinking ) Well ten years later the last of three is heading off to school and my wife is actually thinking about work again. I have not pushed the issue as I think it was important for her to find the desire to return not be pushed. Financially, it hasn't been so tough really more common sense and just learned to be normal and not be so driven about having things etc.

Regardless my clients all know my family, my kids, the fact I'm a soccer dad on the weekends so don't try and get me to a meeting and I work around the family at certain times. It hasn't always been that way, but the long term effort has paid off in trying to achieve that difficult balance, Its not perfect but it works for us.

Just as a footnote: the kids and family are at the cottage, while I'm renovating the Kitchen, studing for the LEED exam, and writing proposals for more work. I would say the scales are a little one sided at the moment, but soon to be corrected.

whislter - wait 'til they're teenagers. Not to sound pessemestic but hopefully you'll be singing the same tune.

cheers

both. having 2 partners with established senior/ownership position gives far more flexibiltiy than most who are normal employees in a firm. both parents should have the flex to take on some of the child raising responsibilitie during the day. the salaries along with ownership you have stated give much more options for say setting up daycare in the office just like SHoP Architects have done.

shalak
it's all about priorities. i can't see how daycare is ever better for the kid than a parent staying at home - not to say that some would not find it necessary though. (full disclosure - my wife (an architect also) is staying home to take care of our 3 year old and 5 month old girls until they begin school.) i am surprised at the number of people i come across where i live who utilize day-care and who rationalize it in terms of needing the second income - only to find out that what they're really satisfying is a need to accumulate crap like DVD players, vacations, computers, cars & other diversions.
we've put off starting up our own business for a bit just because of the time commitmant of two urchins.

i agree. it is only about priorities. why have kids if you dont raise see them growing up? i think the most unhappy parents i know are those who fall into the catagory of 'super parent' who thinks its about doing it all. as long as an architectural parent stays connected to the industry / community via professional organizations, lectures, competitions, i think a break in career has no impact in them returning. and you realize quickly, you dont need 2 incomes to raise a family.

option 2: dont have kids -- a very valid choice.
option 3: one of the parents does a grad school gig while the nippers are growing up.

I have a 4 1/2 year old son, and my wife (also an architect) is due in 6 weeks with our second child. The firm she worked at when our son was born was very helpful - paid 12 weeks maternity leave, then arranged for her to work part time at home, then a half day in the office each week. Even set up a play room for him at the office. That was a pretty progressive firm, we've since found out.

We moved, and our current employers (competing firms) are not nearly as responsive. I have told only two people at my firm of the impending family change, because I'd rather not have the condescending, patronizing lecture from any of them. Since I've been here, two other men have started families. One was celebrated by the firm with a shower, some good cheer, and a lovely gift. The other was badgered by one of the partners the day of the birth so fiercely that he was nearly late to the delivery. His wife went into labor earlier than expected, and raced to the hospital. He called me from the hospital, and after his first words about his new son, he went nuts about the boss. He left the firm when his wife was able to go back to work, and has been happy at home ever since.

When our son was born, I wanted to stay home -- but was so frazzled as a new dad that we both ended up back at work with the boy in daycare. Now, I know I'd rather be home baking lemon squares to sell at a bake sale and using crayons to draw than pretend to be doing anything at the office. I am torn. I don't love my job, and have no opportunity for advancement here. My wife is an associate at her firm, with loads of potential. Our childcare costs alone will triple next year, not to mention insurance. My salary (the lesser of our two incomes) will be almost completely worthless.

It's not an easy decision for anyone to make - whether you call it career vs family, or career with family. Nothing is more important to me than my family, and I've made that very clear at my job. If that's not how your employer sees it, you're better off without them.

i feel for ya Ddot. I really dislike my job and think the work they produce is absolutely normative drivel, but it is the largest and most stable office in our city. just what we need to survive right now. i just remind myself that it is temporary....i don't know what i'd do if my wife were pulling the salary - i'd guess i'd figure out how to be a lot more patient so i could stay home. i'm fried after four hours alone with the two kids...

Looks like things are even tougher for you guys than for us, as I expected. Not that it's completely easy to deal with the situation here, me being an independent 3d renderer and my girl an architect in an important firm here. But we manage. She had eight monthes off (8! 4 2 monthes off before the delivery, two monthes after, two more for breast feeidng, one more of her 5 weeks hollydays that she had left for that, and one more with no salary) to take care of our little daugther and that has been really helpful for the start.
Now that we both work it's more expensive to pay for the daykeepper, but at least we both manage to have a decent career and a baby. I don't get to see her as often as I should, but at least I come back on the evenings and go back to work at home, a lot like shalak moore, and I see her in the morning too. Not on week ends though.
Anyway, the situation is a lot easier here in France than for you guys it seems.

i thought my answer was a bit straight. the bit about grad school was a comment to the masses.

obviously you both want to stay in your careers. what i suggested was a hybrid model.

with partners who have the ability to have a say about their time [firm owner/law office partner] you both have the ability to reduce / transfer your office commitment to home say 2 or 3 mornings or afternoon a week with maybe a day care person 3-4 hours per day. i am certain both of you will end up putting in more time in you roles on weekend / nights that you do with 40 hours in an office.

outside of that no one can understand the details of your practice/money/health care needs to really say go/stay to one or the other unless rock-papers-sissors is an option but i guess you dont want to here that.

There is no black and white decision making with children. It's the ultimate compromise. Shalak, I'm guessing you have no children? Or you do and are resentful of having to care for them or don't get enough time with them? Just when you think you have a plan, the kids change it. That's what's so wonderful about them. Those are the stories we tell.

Shalak, sorry I didn't read your first response above.

I currently do no have any children and none on the way so I think I can approach this issue from a different perspective. Last winter I was working on a job with a project architect who was well into her pregnancy. Sure enough, she had to leave before the job went out to bid, etc. I was left there working literally all nighters to get everything wrapped up and out the door in order. Now I'm all for families and the time that it takes but an expectant mother in an office can throw things into a frenzied mess. Then, at my current employer, the past three women to go out on maternity leave (paid 12 weeks) came back and immediately put in their two weeks notice becuase while they were out on leave they were busy looking for a new job. I'm not saying this is normal but people can take advantage of employers good will and remember that when parent-hood comes a calling there are people back at the office that are essentially picking up your slack.

Badgering a new father isn't right but as a new parent be thankfull to your co-workers. I wasn't really looking to work an 80 hour week this past February.

The idea of "meaningful part time" does not apply to architecture. I work sporadically (and part time) for a large firm here in town. I can do CAD work for them, but this really has no meaning to me. The projects are not mine and I don't have any say in what happens to them.
A better route is to consider starting something on your own after registration. Then, you'll have more freedom for you and your family.

I work on my own with two partners, one of whom is my husband. No kids yet, but we're definitely planning on it and trying to figure out how it will work. Right now we're working out of an office at home, but hopefully we'll move to bigger digs soon and we're not sure how far we'll be from home.
I find the discussion about whether daycare is or is not good for kids is interesting. Not sure why, but I feel for the most part that the people arguing against it are either mothers who want to stay home and not work, or fathers who have the luxury/desire for their wives to stay home. I'm sure there are some stay-at-home dads out there, but I can't imagine there are really that many male architects who choose to do it. I guess it sounds to me as though you guys are holding on to your careers (even if you don't really like your jobs) while your wives are making the sacrifice for your kids, which maybe you are jealous of but not enough to actually switch roles? Anyways, I used to be of the opinion that at least one parent should stay home as well, but that's changing now that we have several friends with kids and everyone's situation is different.
My husband's sister had a baby two years ago - she works at home doing PR and her husband works at a movie studio. I think their plan was that she would take care of their son at home, but she quickly realized that she couldn't get much work done and so they have him in daycare at the studio. It's a unique situation in that the daycare is very good, and she has the felxibility of being able to pick him up if he's sick, participate in activities over there if she wants, and her husband can go visit the kid at lunch and during the day. He's growing up to be a very intelligent, pleasant kid. He LOVES daycare and is very well socialized. In daycare they have activities all day, painting, reading, they cook, they go on field trips. He has a lot of experiences that he wouldn't have if she was home with him all day trying to work and take care of him at the same time. On the other side, we have some friends who also have a design/build company and the wife decided to work at home and take care of the kid because she doesn't believe in daycare. She has ended up hiring someone to come and play with him for a few hours at a time so she can get some work done, but I don't think she's really "working" all that much. They also have the luxury of being a pretty well established firm by this time and having several employees that can take care of business while they are looking after their son. We have other friends that have come up with various solutions - one has a full time nanny because they both work full time but make good money and can afford it, a couple have part-time nannies or babysitters and one of the parents works at home some of the time. Personally, I don't know that I would be able to stay home and not work and take care of the kids. I am sure I would feel isolated. We have a client who left her job to take care of a new baby. Her husband got a new job with a long commute, and she is at home alone all day until he comes home late. That doesn't seem like it would a priori be better for a child than being at daycare. On the other hand, I think if I am "working" at home with the kids I won't get much done - I have a hard enough time with no kids (as is obvious since I have tons to do and i'm posting here).
Children throughout history have been looked after by people who are not their biological parents, either members of the extended family, social group, nannies, tutors, etc., and I can't believe that staying at home full time is something both parents need to do to ensure that their children grow up "ok", whatever that means. On the other hand, parents need to form a close bond with their childrn, and I can see that you could miss out on a lot if you are working full time while your kids are growing up... Anyways, for us we can't afford to have me not working, we can't afford a nanny, and our parents are too far away to help. So no kids just yet...hmmm, one more thing, I also think the discussion of "you should sacrifice DVD players etc." for your kids is a little unfair. We all get through life with different needs and desires, I imagine that for parents who both work part of what they feel they are offering, in addition to material goods, is stability, long term healthcare, savings for college, etc. My mom worked some of the time we were growing up (4 of us), and though I liked it when she was home I also really liked it when we had nannies (who usually spoke spanish, which I thought was cool and interesting). Anyways, sorry for the ramble, but I've been thinking about these things a lot lately...

From real world experience:
Spouse earns beaucoup more than moi
Spouse has early delivery, in hospital for a week before and week after
Spent many hours in hospital, checked in at work with calls, went into office for about 4 hours everyday keeping up with workload.
Had to spend 3 days at home caring for mom and baby
Return to work and find a new hire with skill set remarkably like my own... I'm told that he will "assist" me. HA. Supervisor pointedly tells me that she wonders about my "judgement." I suck it up and watch this new guy totally screw up and piss off all our clients and consultants and than laugh my ass off when they fire him and HE SUES THEM FOR AGE DISCRIMINATION (he was about 40 when this happened). I find new job.

At new job after 9 months boss starts ragging me about my arrival time-which we spoke about at the time of my hire-he wants me in the office by 7:30, but my daycare doesn't open until 8:00, which would put me in the office at 8:30. I notice that this raggin on my time comes as our workload has slowed considerably... he writes 2 memos about my arrival time, and I protest that we had agreed that my arrival time was OK, but I agree to have my wife drop off kids. This works but one week spouse was out of town and I was daddy daycare. I arrive at 8:45 and I am packing my shit up by 9:05. Most humiliating and infuriating thing I have ever had to deal with.

With a door shutting close another opens right? I try the sole-proprieter route working out of the house while I take care of (now two) kids. Margine has it right..."meaningful part time" is an oxymoron, especially with arch, but even more so with parenting. Humbling. Kids do not nap when you want them... the two and three hour breaks (from the kids, not the work) only allow you to realize how far behind these "simple" projects are...only time you can concentrate is in the evening so you stay up late and get up early.

Thing of it is, I really regret all those hours when I was with my kids and was only thinking about their next nap so I could sneak in a few more details. Sad.

A few years later and wife is at home full time as I sweat it out 60 hour weeks so we can have a fulltime parent for the kids. Having one pparent at home fulltime is much better and I wish I had not tried to work while I had the chance. But it is very difficult to separate what you do from who you are when you practice architecture.

Unless you are a trustifarian or have great local family support with babysitting, the costs of daycare will drive both partners to work fulltime.

I'm no Dr. Laura. There are too many different circumstances to say it is better if a child is raised one way or another...

I suppose the problem would be easier if life was not so gd expensive and we wouldn't need two career families. Single parents must have the worst job...

Yep. I did the single parent thing and it is hard. I was lucky in many ways though. I started architecture school when my son was 1 and finished when he was 7 or 8. So my hours were similar to part time job hours. His best friend lived next door and the mom did daycare. We actually shared a party wall so I felt like he was really at home, not in daycare. I also had financial support at the time which allowed me to do this. I didn't start working full time when he was 9.

I'm so grateful that I had those early years to spend with him. I think it really made a difference. My parents were really involved with him too. He's in college now and I sometimes feel the guilt that you feel when you don't spend enough time with your kids more now than before. He's home for the summer after I hardly saw him for 9 months. I feel like this should be quality time before he goes back in the fall, and I don't want to work late or on weekends. So, here's the kicker. He's working in my office doing cad so I'm actually with him every day, but it's far from quality time. Now we both come home tired and spend dinner talking about work!

I know I’m late on this thread (I was on vacation) but I have to add my 2c.

I have a 13 month old. Babe is in fulltime daycare. I’m exceptionally lucky to be in a firm that values family and has offered significant flexibility and understanding of the difficulties of (especially) the first year of new parenthood.

Case in point, I’ve used up all MY sick time going to the pediatrician. Daycare = lots of germs, so it’s not uncommon to spend the first year constantly battling colds and often ear infections (this does have its benefits, strangely, as the kid is building a strong immune system, and will glide into kindergarten very healthily while the stay-at-home kids in the same class will all be battling with sudden new exposure to germs.) No exaggeration, during winter we were at the ped.’s every 2 weeks. Every other cold was passed on to either my SO or me. So it was a rough winter. Yet my firm is totally understanding and asks simply that I accommodate deadlines and team meetings as well as possible when making doctor’s appointments.

Unfortunately I have always been a “give 110%” employee, and for the last year while I’ve been giving my absolute best effort (except for time spent on this damnable forum) I’ve definitely come up short. I’m very uncomfortable with feeling that other team members are having to pick up my slack. It’s getting better, slowly, as the babe is finally beginning to sleep through the night and I’m growing accustomed to a schedule that leaves me absolutely zero free time for myself and only a few minutes a day to spend QT with my SO.

Even an architecture student’s most demanding end-of-the-semester all-nighter charette schedule cannot adequately prepare you for the exhaustion that ensues when you’ve gone 8 solid months without more than 2 hours of uninterrupted sleep. Makes school look like a freakin' vacation!

In closing, though - I’ve never known joy like this, I’ve never understood the true depth of love that is possible in this life. I would be a poorer human for not having gone through this experience and I will never regret having made this choice.

liberty bell: My little one is also sick all the time and he is now 3 yrs old AND he only goes to school for 3 hrs.! I don't know how other parents can work and deal with all this??? :(

Margine, I meant to comment to your post when I first read it, actually: in terms of not knowing how a several year abscence will affect your career. I've always felt that architecture is a slowly-evolving career, that the technological changes happen so slowly - especially in the construction end of it - that a few years away won't leave you far behind at all. Sure there wil be some new software to learn, but that's a couple weeks or maybe months of catching up at most. So I wouldn't worry about it Architecture is a slow career path, we all know that - celebrated "young architects" can be up to age 40, which is mid-career in any other field!

In the meantime GOOD FOR YOU getting licensed while you've been a SAHM - I don't know how you managed THAT! I purposfully got the damn license before getting pregnant, I was scared I would not be able to do it after, and sure enough there's no way in my current schedule I could study for exams. Your license will make you much more valuable heading back into the market That's a real accomplishment.

New parenthood for full-time architects is not for the faint of heart. It takes enormous energy reserves - that you will be able to find whether you think you will or not - and a willingness to sort of allow your self to disappear into your responsibilities to others for awhile. Agin, it's good that architecture is so slow-moving, because there is plenty of time to keep absorbing and learning for several years, then start making use of that knowledge when your kids are older!

As for daycare sickness - we call it kennel cough in our house - it only takes 30 seconds of exposure to catch a cold! My boy caught his first cold the very first time we went to the daycare for an acclimating visit. He sure acclimated well!