There's a lot of controversy about this and I'd like to read your opinions on this rather hot topic.
I'm against illegal immigration, but at the same time, I'm very uncomfortable with the potential loopholes that come with it. They say it's not the same as racial profiling, but how sure are we that this can be implemented fairly to people who look or sound foreign?
Also, I may be misunderstanding this law altogether...Your take on this???
I am against illegal immigration but, it seems that American Indians would have been the beneficiaries of a policy like Arizona's, if it had not waited 400 years to "evolve."
It's a fundamentally flawed, racist and constitutionally flawed law; it will get struck down, regardless of how weak our Congress is at taking on real challenges.
My Aunt is a descendant of Mexican ancestry, she lives in Utah, will she have to show her "papers," will my cousins, their kids? How is this law any different than Nazi Germany? Where is the tea-bagger/birther/socialist/nazi rage at this?
Boycott Arizona! Go to New Mexico instead, I hear it's more beautiful anyhow.
i think it's an election year in arizona, and the incubents are under a lot of pressure due to the effect of the economy on a state where one of the leading industries was home construction. it's interesting that while illegal immigration has reduced significantly in the past couple of years due to the economy, the governor of arizona now claims they are being overrun. it is simply a populist viewpoint designed to gain voters sympathies. there are more white voters in az than there are hispanic.
illegal immigration always arises as an issue during recessions, and then goes away during boom times. don't get me wrong, arizona does have a serious problem with illegal immigration. the issue isn't so much if/when officials "look the other way," or at least don't do everything they can to stop it, in order to allow an influx of cheap labor to stimulate the economy. imho phx/tucson in the past 30 years was built by immigrant, and often illegal, immigrant labor. the issue is mostly the drugs, prostitution, and violence that come with the influx of so many people under the radar. so they need to do something about it, i think by more seriously patrolling the border. otherwise, this will just be a racial issue and a great many hispanic people in this country are not here illegally and don't deserve to be harassed.
the discussion is not about immigration; its about race and its totally fucked up.
if it was about economic imputs into our national system, trust the IRS and respective state franchise/departments of revenue would be all over anybody to pay tax to maintain infrastructure.
this law is designed to harass a large, unspecified number of people to make an increasing small part of the population feel "safe". the coming lawsuits should be interesting.
Frankly, I'm just sick and tired of paying for other people's way.
Nobody deserved to be harassed, but we have a right to protect ourselves, enforce our laws, and enjoy the benefits of our tax revenue as citizens. Illegal immigration is ILLEGAL in case anyone was confused. It cheapens what it means to be an American citizen (which has real value to some of us) The federal government needs to enforce the law or you'll see more reaction like Arizona's. We must find a reasonable way to do this. The burden is on the federal government, and until they do something meaningful, I can't blame the state of Arizona for at least doing something.
Being form a bordertown, I am actually somewhat informed to have a real valid opinion! I agree with le bossman to some extent-- especially on the built part.
One thing I would like to point out is that where I am from is relatively cosmopolitan. However, there is a bit of a self-dividing force present through the city. White people tend to stell within their respective white domains and Hispanics tended more towards their own domains. There was some differences between the two obviously when we talk about wealth and poverty. But my town has a surprising number of wealthy Hispanics, too.
They all mostly gravitated towards the West Mesa and the golf course community built on the mountain. The wealthier whites picked the foothills and the North Mesa. And everyone else was at various levels and stages of the valley with ethnicity practically segregated by block rather than neighborhood.
I wouldn't say it was perfect. But it was better than other places Ive seen. Obviously there was a lot of intermingling-- the mexicans really love Denny's, Wendy's and Der Weinerschnitzel. Where as all the white people would descend to the seedy mexican neighborhoods for foods. So, that was an odd dynamic. I've never seen people outside of New Mexico eager to go to Denny's.
The reason for this long rant? Growth. The white population of Las Cruces has been relatively stagnant for a long time. The only real big growth booms come from whenever some government agency decides to add some new top secret facility. Other than that, most white families tend to be rather small and self-absorbed in New Mexico.
Without the constant influx of immigrants, development would have eventually slumped. The city would have receded. Coffers would have dried up and the city would have been basically left to die.
Suburbanism is slightly more dependent than hardline urbanism is on a growth-based model (compare Santa Fe to Albuquerque.) Illegals, out-of-state, new companies, corporate relocation... something! As long as it gets people into the state building homes, buying cars, buying appliances, buying lawnmowers and consuming something... it helps the overall broader economy.
Sad to say but without significant changes in the affordability of larger homes, more pedestrian travel and cheaper schools... anyone without a lot of money isn't going to be having 16 kids anytime soon. And without illegals, it's going to be hard to sustain a 3% population growth at our current rate with out immigrants!
I think that's why New Mexicans are a little more open to the idea. Also, we're Neuvo Mexico. We're like Mexico but our Pantone pallet is 3 shades lighter!
While I don't support the methods of my home state's immigration problem, I have yet to see an alternative mentioned here nor any other media outlet for that matter.
In the past decade, I have witnessed political commentary evolve (or devolve) from focusing on logical policy issues into obnoxious performances made on Fox News or whoever screams loudest on my television screen or on my AM radio channel.
The conservative right, whose remaining members hold a more extreme perspective are the core backers of this bill. Unfortunately, AZ has a large number of these people.
But we also have a major immigration problem - more illegal immigrants pour through AZ's border than Cali, New Mex, or Texas - and several independents and, apparently, Dems support this political action. 70% of the people in this state support SB1070.
Until the actors in Washington dedicate more resources to our invisible border w/ Mexico, AZ citizens will overreact to call attention to our problems - simple, but ugly politics.
Unfortunately, Sheriff Joe Arapaio will take full advantage of this move to continue his fear-inducing agenda.
People, please don't boycott AZ; instead set the blackberry or sketch pad down and come up with a creative policy idea in response to this broken system and share it with us.
Get real, anything short of this is, in all fairness, simply grandstanding.
They stole the lands of Mexicans? Sure they can give those lands back to Mexicans and let them have their own government.What would happen they would eff that up too since they are not capable of running an efficient government themselves but American government? It is awesoooooome! I mean where else in the world you can get into a country illegally and get food,housing assistance and medicare? LOL.
The homebuilding boom in AZ was entirely financed on the backs of illegal immigrants, whom the homebuilders hired absolutely knowingly and made loads of profit on. It's only when the boom busts and people look around and say "oh, are those people still here?!" that suddenly it's time to stop illegal immigration once and for all.
I hate to admit that I wholeheartedly supported George W on this one. We need a path to legal and ethical employment for those who come seeking it. Otherwise both these people, these human beings, AND our economy suffer. And the winners are unethical companies and horrendous coyote-and-drug rings that are part of what make Mexico so intolerable today. Take away some of the profit of coyote-and-drug rings and you're already one step on the way to killing two birds with one stone.
get into a country illegally and get food,housing assistance and medicare?
A lot of people who bitch about this kind of thing don't know shit about illegal immigration... if you think it is just rosy to come here and somehow you are magically given an apartment and food, you are fooling yourself. Emergency urgent care - maybe. You cross the border and someone tracks you down and hands you an apartment? bullshit.
Also, there is nothing "illegal" about having the shit luck to be born into a shitty country, and attempting to better your life. It's the same damn reason all of our forebears came here. A little understanding and empathy goes a long way. I'd love to see you all live in a world without "illegal" immigrants...
There are obviously problems, which is why we need a legal path to employment and then we need to tax that. Let everyone in to find work - if they find it, they get taxed; crack down very heavily on unethical employers who aren't checking SS; and in the meanwhile you are erasing the profits of the coyotes, which are a major problem.
It's easier to crack down on the employers than it is to man thousands of miles of border around the clock.
Some of the other problems (urgent care costs on the health system, cost to education system) can be solved through other means. Health system overhaul has come up with lots of good ideas for the first; for the second, frankly, we need more money for education and there's no way around that. Taxing the workers should help offset the increased educational costs. As for housing assistance, I don't have a problem with it - if you're really that poor, and you qualify just like anyone else does, I don't have a problem. You have to show that you are working - in which case, why should we care? If you're concerned about housing assistance for the needy then you should better be looking at all the people who receive it who AREN'T looking for a job, or doing job training, or going to school. We already have lots and lots of those and honey, they ain't even illegal.
"Also, there is nothing "illegal" about having the shit luck to be born into a shitty country, and attempting to better your life."
That's exactly what happened to me and my family,we came here and we got our green cards,paid hundreds of dollars,worked,paid taxes and now I'm getting my citizenship in a month.So basically I did it the LEGAL way so did my family.
if we have to give mexico back to the mexicans because we stole it from them, then the mexicans have to give mexico back to the aztecs, which they also stole. that's a rule, and it's only fair.
Almost all illegal immigrants pay for education as a majority of education funding in many states is paid by real estate taxes.
Since most illegals don't live just magically appear out of no where, most of them do end up paying at least real estate taxes. In addition, since most of them do buy things (because they need them to live)... they more than lively also pay sales taxes, various use taxes et cetera.
When it comes to insurance, automotive insurance and the like, there are usually various forms of semi-illegal middlemen who make a killing off of charging two-to-three times the amount one would normally pay for these services. When you combine higher overall expenses with meager wages (which lack the protection of the DOL), these people usually don't have very much money to spend on things like housing.
The majority of the people on welfare (who receive the highest proportion of money) are white-- call it disability, call it housing assistance, call it Section 8. It may not be foodstamps and social services welfare... but it is welfare none the less.
One generally has to be a citizen to qualify for housing assistance anyways as the process is very rigorous and thorough. The only organizations that are tremendously flexible and don't ask to many questions are major cities that operate semi-independent housing authorities outside of the Section 8 program (New York... and that's pretty much the end of the list.)
In either event, if one isn't checking paperwork to verify citizenship status, almost all illegals (as well as like 75%) of the United States qualify for Section 8 housing. I think the max income is $35,000 dollars-- I believe it is $44,000 in some big cities.
This ontop of the fact that while many of these programs are paid for by federal taxes, 45-50% of the population doesn't actually pay taxes. At the wage rates of most immigrants, many of them wouldn't pay taxes if they were citizens anyways.
This may be the first post of yours I ever agree with, Unicorn. You made my arguments in a more coherent form... I'm too exhausted to be posting, probably.
one thing to note:
At the wage rates of most immigrants, many of them wouldn't pay taxes if they were citizens anyways.
We would collect payroll taxes on them - is what I was referring to.
Hmmm, I don't see a lot of people throwing out the Blond haired, blue eyes French-Canadian illegal immigrants I only hear about them throwing out the brown-skinned dark featured Hispanics.
People can say it's not about racism all they want but it's racism, period. The thing about racism in these times is that it's not blatant, it's usually shrouded in some other "do good" type political action or "religious" nonsense. I have more respect for the idiotic KKK - at least they don't pretend to believe anything else than what they do despite how disgusting it may be.
We need to bring these migrant workers out the shadows. They are being exploited without being documented. We should have an amnesty program for illegal’s that are currently working and for the ones that aren’t working buy them a ticket back home.
And if Americans are so worried about losing jobs then maybe the government establishes a priority hiring list, citizens first then visa hires next. This will allow jobs that Americans don’t want get filled.
My gardener just arrived... have to go to the atm and get cash.
I don't see why we can't just open the borders, require an easy to apply for but difficult to pass citizenship exam (must know english, history of US, etc.), and just get EVERYone who wants to work here a tax ID number so we can end all this bitching about "I'm paying for their ______". If there's no need to work on the black market under the table, the concerns about lowered wages decrease because everyone can stand up for their rights without fear of deportation...
RealLifeLEED, curiously enough, that's basically what George W was proposing - and guess what, industry stood AGAINST it, all but admitting that they are addicted to the absurdly cheap labor they get in illegals! So the AZ law is focusing on the wrong end of the stick - the illegals aren't the problem - we have an entire economic system built on their backs. If you don't want illegals, you need to fix the SYSTEM first. Go after the employers for hiring illegals at sub-minimum wage, and then make it so that whoever wants to work here, can.
Frankly - for those people always going on about how this country is becoming "socialist" - a little true competition in the employment market should be right up their alley. If you take illegal work out of the equation, thus restoring regular, legal low wage employment - and you suddenly dump in a few extra thousands of people fighting for those jobs - well, suddenly your own people need to shape up, or they won't be picked for a job, right? Should be RIGHT up a capitalist's alley!!!
But, oh, that would make it necessary for us to fix our under-funded and lax educational system, which requires taxpayer money. (scary!) That would also require some of our low-wage earners to, in all frankness, get a more competitive work ethic.
i dont have a ton to add to this conversation besides 2 things... im very proud of us for keeping this conversation away from the trolls... half way through i saw manta take a little bait but fortunately you werent swayed!
secondly... logistically, i have no idea how a law like this can be implemented without the most blatant racial profiling... its legitimizing and strengthening an already powerful institutional racism... we already arrest many times more blacks than whites... we already disregard (both legal and illegal) latino contributions to our economy... so now, rather than these being social and cultural conditions, they are government and institutional conditions... its bafflingly unfair...
I think since most white collar crimes are commited by middle aged, balding white men wearing suits and loafers, that they should have to present their bank account information to any official who...
No seriously, while I sympathize with the problems in AZ, I'm all for legal immigration. I think the best way to reduce the number of illegals is to crack down on employers who hire them to improve their bottom line. But those are mostly middle aged, balding white guys, and can't be bothered.
What Id love to see is cops in AZ start deporting white joggers and construction workers and upper-middle-class housewives clipping roses in their back yards for 'engaging in suspicious behavior without proof of citizenship'.
I think all of us knows there are some pretty common-sense ways to deal with this. But this law has nothing to do with common sense solutions. Its not even trying to be. Its intentionally vague, because its designed to be racially antagonistic.
And that for me is the real trouble. Everyone agrees the way were dealing with this now is fucked up. But for many people, even if you spent 100 billion dollars building a 60' electric laser field and parked half the national guard on the border and ran swat teams through the south west rounding up immigrants, they still wouldnt be happy. Because this has never really been about the law. The law is designed to reinforce their long-standing racial insecurities. I keep hearing all this bullshit about "Were being overrun!" and "Oh the crime!" as if this is some imminent catastrophe. Crime rates are consistently DOWN in the state. This is a crisis in your minds. Im from Vermont. I dont recall any huge national effort to stop rampant drug trafficking from canada through my state. Nobody gives a fuck. And I think if anyone is who's being honest with themselves knows why.
Im pretty happy actually to see people like Jeb Bush and Mike Bloomberg show some fucking courage and honesty and come out against this thing. But there is still this deep core of the republican party that cant help itself but to regress into the the Party of We Dont Like Your Kind Here. Its fucking tragic.
@Dallasarchitect:
"Hmmm, I don't see a lot of people throwing out the Blond haired, blue eyes French-Canadian illegal immigrants I only hear about them throwing out the brown-skinned dark featured Hispanics.
People can say it's not about racism all they want but it's racism, period. The thing about racism in these times is that it's not blatant, it's usually shrouded in some other "do good" type political action or "religious" nonsense. I have more respect for the idiotic KKK - at least they don't pretend to believe anything else than what they do despite how disgusting it may be."
That's what I fear,there is already a stereotype and face it, the non-white fall into this stereotype. I was thinking that in a crowd with a non-white citizen and a white illegal (ex...overstayed), the non-white will end being questioned, if not harassed for "'engaging in suspicious behavior without proof of citizenship'"...
here's the problem : there is really no path to citizenship other than through first degree relatives, marriages or employer sponsorship.
All of these take anywhere between 2-5 years to process during which you have very little freedom to make changes in your life, from the timing of your trips outside US to changing jobs or asking for a better salary.
sorry, processing time is for green card, it takes a decade or more to become a citizen, why does it have to be that way?
I'm all for rules, but this sounds more like Kafka's Amerika.
also, aside from racism, unconstitutionality and populism of this law, consider it's impracticality:
Immigration laws are very complicated, but I find that most people don't understand them and they don't know what documents are proof that you are legal, they don't know the difference between a visa stamp and legal status (they are not the same thing!), they don't know why I have to carry two passports and that my visa is still legal even though my passport is expired, they don't know that even though my visa looks ok, I might be illegal because I got laid off from my H1B visa job.
Police officers do not have the kind of training to understand these things.
a friend of mine forwarded that Tim James add about getting rid of all non english drivers license exams the other day and i thought at first it was fake.
Partially because of the production, partially because of the ridiculous contemplative pause at the end, and partially because of the pure stupidity of his argument...
"this is alabama, we speak english... maybe its the business man in me, but we'll save money, and it makes sense..."
illegal is illegal, I think we can all agree on that. The question is how do you either stop it from happening or make a path out for those in this situation that is fair to all parties.
Here's a list of beautiful things that would be illegal if done in Florida:
-- Men may not be seen publicly in any kind of strapless gown.
-- When having sex, only the missionary position is legal.
-- If an elephant is left tied to a parking meter, the parking fee has to be paid just as it would for a vehicle.
-- It is considered an offense to shower naked.
-- Penalty for horse theft is death by hanging.
-- A special law prohibits unmarried women from parachuting on Sunday or she shall risk arrest, fine, and/or jailing.
The problem with making 'illegal' immigration 'legal' has more to do with 'infrastructure' and location.
The United States currently has one Embassy in Mexico City and 9 Consulates (almost all of which are across the border). The issue here is that many Mexicans don't know that they can go to these places, many of them cannot afford to go to these places and many of them are discouraged from doing so.
On top of that, these Consulate offices (especially in the border area) are frequently closed for all sorts of reasons.
They should do what I remember that use to be done was reenacting a cross border safe zone (50-10 miles) in from the border and relocate or dissemble many of the Consulate offices and place them on the other side of the border.
Like many government services, it is a question of ease of access rather than actual access.
I say this because sometime around the mid 90s they switched from an open border to a zero tolerance border. Mexican nationals could drive as far north as 60-80 miles north of the border before INS agents started seriously checking identity.
And most of the time the INS agents would simply turn around the Mexicans rather than locking them up and extraditing them.
they don't know they can get there? seriously, i think you are beating a dead horse.
It's more likely that the people who chose to cross border illegally know they don't have a strong case to get a proper visa.
Questioning the term "illegal" with outdated examples is really not helping the case of these people who have broken a federal law.
One thing I don't understand is... As a citizen, the only ID I carry normally is my driver's license. Lets say, for sake of argument I've been pulled over in Arizona for speeding and asked to prove I'm a LEGAL immigrant/permanent resident alien or a citizen. How would I prove that I am since as a citizen I don't carry proof that I'm one? NOT having documentation that says I'm a legal alien doesn't prove I'm here illegally. I think its pretty safe to say that this is not the kind of scenario that this bill is supposed to be dealing with (not that this makes it any better or worse)
The way I'm reading this is that this is really a move to increase authority and limit liability of LEOs, stemming from frustration with current limitations and exposure to liability while doing their work (this is purely my perception from my reading, so take it for what its worth). The increase in potential for racial profiling and abuse of our rights seem to be an unfortunate unintended outcome of this attempt at removing obstacles for the LEOs to do their work.
Intended or not, however, racial profiling is racial profiling, and abuse of our rights is abuse of our rights.
They're not outdated. They are still on the law books. And those are just obvious examples. It costs money to keep these things on the books.
Most of them are the result frivolous lawsuits anyways.
The immigration system, like the prison system, functions purely out of tradition and steadfastness.
Like the prison system, there are many examples that show that our current system does not practically function. Or rather, it does not produce the intended results with the amount of money we currently invest into those programs.
It is an issue with escalation, a culture of violence and retaliation. You push the issue, the issue gets pushed back at you harder. I can see why people would defend the system-- there is billions of dollars of public money being pumped into the border states funding all sorts of programs to combat these "issues."
And as long as we keep pushing the concept of "America" through subversive cultural imperialism, people will continue to want to come here under whatever pretension was feed to them. The U.S. spends a lot of money overseas to talk about how great the U.S., sends volunteers and aid to show off the wealth of the U.S. and sets up programs like the Peace Corps to show off even more.
You want people to stop coming to this country? Start by telling people how awful it is. Start by telling them that tremendous amount of scam businesses there are here. Tell them that nearly every aspect of their life has been reduced down to a corporate marketing strategy. Tell them that the entire American Dream is a carefully crafted product marketing vehicle designed to get you to buy expensive machines and make foolish land purchases.
And also tell the moment they stop having money, they'll basically be dumped off near an interstate off ramp to live in the woods and beg for money at gas stations.
You know the saying, "when in Rome, do what the Romans do", but on the other hand, I think the guy pushing for this change has to put into consideration the new (legal) migrants who have yet to brush up on their English skills yet want to drive or do what normal residents do. No English doesn't necessarily mean illegal. I mean, I'm lucky I was raised and educated in English, but say I wasn't and I still have trouble READING English (geez, I still have trouble READING my native language :P) -- how am I, a new resident supposed to live normally and take the driver's test if I can't fully comprehend it yet?
I know the naturalization test requires basic English - - that, I understand completely. It takes at least 4 years before you can apply for citizenship and given you want to be a citizen you should have at the very least made an effort to learn the language of the majority. But for a legal migrant, say, "fresh off the boat" - - it's a bit unfair to deny him/her the right to take the test just because she's struggling with English.
"AZ Immigration Law"/SB 1070 - Your Thoughts?
There's a lot of controversy about this and I'd like to read your opinions on this rather hot topic.
I'm against illegal immigration, but at the same time, I'm very uncomfortable with the potential loopholes that come with it. They say it's not the same as racial profiling, but how sure are we that this can be implemented fairly to people who look or sound foreign?
Also, I may be misunderstanding this law altogether...Your take on this???
I am against illegal immigration but, it seems that American Indians would have been the beneficiaries of a policy like Arizona's, if it had not waited 400 years to "evolve."
It's a fundamentally flawed, racist and constitutionally flawed law; it will get struck down, regardless of how weak our Congress is at taking on real challenges.
My Aunt is a descendant of Mexican ancestry, she lives in Utah, will she have to show her "papers," will my cousins, their kids? How is this law any different than Nazi Germany? Where is the tea-bagger/birther/socialist/nazi rage at this?
Boycott Arizona! Go to New Mexico instead, I hear it's more beautiful anyhow.
i think it's an election year in arizona, and the incubents are under a lot of pressure due to the effect of the economy on a state where one of the leading industries was home construction. it's interesting that while illegal immigration has reduced significantly in the past couple of years due to the economy, the governor of arizona now claims they are being overrun. it is simply a populist viewpoint designed to gain voters sympathies. there are more white voters in az than there are hispanic.
illegal immigration always arises as an issue during recessions, and then goes away during boom times. don't get me wrong, arizona does have a serious problem with illegal immigration. the issue isn't so much if/when officials "look the other way," or at least don't do everything they can to stop it, in order to allow an influx of cheap labor to stimulate the economy. imho phx/tucson in the past 30 years was built by immigrant, and often illegal, immigrant labor. the issue is mostly the drugs, prostitution, and violence that come with the influx of so many people under the radar. so they need to do something about it, i think by more seriously patrolling the border. otherwise, this will just be a racial issue and a great many hispanic people in this country are not here illegally and don't deserve to be harassed.
the discussion is not about immigration; its about race and its totally fucked up.
if it was about economic imputs into our national system, trust the IRS and respective state franchise/departments of revenue would be all over anybody to pay tax to maintain infrastructure.
this law is designed to harass a large, unspecified number of people to make an increasing small part of the population feel "safe". the coming lawsuits should be interesting.
It is not about race,it is about illegal immigration and there is nothing "racist" about kicking out illegal immigrants.Period.
Question being how would they identify an illegal just like that? Or rather, identify an ALIEN just like that.
Frankly, I'm just sick and tired of paying for other people's way.
Nobody deserved to be harassed, but we have a right to protect ourselves, enforce our laws, and enjoy the benefits of our tax revenue as citizens. Illegal immigration is ILLEGAL in case anyone was confused. It cheapens what it means to be an American citizen (which has real value to some of us) The federal government needs to enforce the law or you'll see more reaction like Arizona's. We must find a reasonable way to do this. The burden is on the federal government, and until they do something meaningful, I can't blame the state of Arizona for at least doing something.
Being form a bordertown, I am actually somewhat informed to have a real valid opinion! I agree with le bossman to some extent-- especially on the built part.
One thing I would like to point out is that where I am from is relatively cosmopolitan. However, there is a bit of a self-dividing force present through the city. White people tend to stell within their respective white domains and Hispanics tended more towards their own domains. There was some differences between the two obviously when we talk about wealth and poverty. But my town has a surprising number of wealthy Hispanics, too.
They all mostly gravitated towards the West Mesa and the golf course community built on the mountain. The wealthier whites picked the foothills and the North Mesa. And everyone else was at various levels and stages of the valley with ethnicity practically segregated by block rather than neighborhood.
I wouldn't say it was perfect. But it was better than other places Ive seen. Obviously there was a lot of intermingling-- the mexicans really love Denny's, Wendy's and Der Weinerschnitzel. Where as all the white people would descend to the seedy mexican neighborhoods for foods. So, that was an odd dynamic. I've never seen people outside of New Mexico eager to go to Denny's.
The reason for this long rant? Growth. The white population of Las Cruces has been relatively stagnant for a long time. The only real big growth booms come from whenever some government agency decides to add some new top secret facility. Other than that, most white families tend to be rather small and self-absorbed in New Mexico.
Without the constant influx of immigrants, development would have eventually slumped. The city would have receded. Coffers would have dried up and the city would have been basically left to die.
Suburbanism is slightly more dependent than hardline urbanism is on a growth-based model (compare Santa Fe to Albuquerque.) Illegals, out-of-state, new companies, corporate relocation... something! As long as it gets people into the state building homes, buying cars, buying appliances, buying lawnmowers and consuming something... it helps the overall broader economy.
Sad to say but without significant changes in the affordability of larger homes, more pedestrian travel and cheaper schools... anyone without a lot of money isn't going to be having 16 kids anytime soon. And without illegals, it's going to be hard to sustain a 3% population growth at our current rate with out immigrants!
I think that's why New Mexicans are a little more open to the idea. Also, we're Neuvo Mexico. We're like Mexico but our Pantone pallet is 3 shades lighter!
While I don't support the methods of my home state's immigration problem, I have yet to see an alternative mentioned here nor any other media outlet for that matter.
In the past decade, I have witnessed political commentary evolve (or devolve) from focusing on logical policy issues into obnoxious performances made on Fox News or whoever screams loudest on my television screen or on my AM radio channel.
The conservative right, whose remaining members hold a more extreme perspective are the core backers of this bill. Unfortunately, AZ has a large number of these people.
But we also have a major immigration problem - more illegal immigrants pour through AZ's border than Cali, New Mex, or Texas - and several independents and, apparently, Dems support this political action. 70% of the people in this state support SB1070.
Until the actors in Washington dedicate more resources to our invisible border w/ Mexico, AZ citizens will overreact to call attention to our problems - simple, but ugly politics.
Unfortunately, Sheriff Joe Arapaio will take full advantage of this move to continue his fear-inducing agenda.
People, please don't boycott AZ; instead set the blackberry or sketch pad down and come up with a creative policy idea in response to this broken system and share it with us.
Get real, anything short of this is, in all fairness, simply grandstanding.
One of my college professors suggested the following:
In all the States that the USA stole from Mexico Give Mexicans citizenship if they don't have it yet. Which was half of Mexico.
They stole the lands of Mexicans? Sure they can give those lands back to Mexicans and let them have their own government.What would happen they would eff that up too since they are not capable of running an efficient government themselves but American government? It is awesoooooome! I mean where else in the world you can get into a country illegally and get food,housing assistance and medicare? LOL.
The homebuilding boom in AZ was entirely financed on the backs of illegal immigrants, whom the homebuilders hired absolutely knowingly and made loads of profit on. It's only when the boom busts and people look around and say "oh, are those people still here?!" that suddenly it's time to stop illegal immigration once and for all.
I hate to admit that I wholeheartedly supported George W on this one. We need a path to legal and ethical employment for those who come seeking it. Otherwise both these people, these human beings, AND our economy suffer. And the winners are unethical companies and horrendous coyote-and-drug rings that are part of what make Mexico so intolerable today. Take away some of the profit of coyote-and-drug rings and you're already one step on the way to killing two birds with one stone.
Hi ms Paradoxx86,
Are you sure you want to jump into politics? going from an aspiring victoria secrets model to politics is quite a big jump.
A lot of people who bitch about this kind of thing don't know shit about illegal immigration... if you think it is just rosy to come here and somehow you are magically given an apartment and food, you are fooling yourself. Emergency urgent care - maybe. You cross the border and someone tracks you down and hands you an apartment? bullshit.
Also, there is nothing "illegal" about having the shit luck to be born into a shitty country, and attempting to better your life. It's the same damn reason all of our forebears came here. A little understanding and empathy goes a long way. I'd love to see you all live in a world without "illegal" immigrants...
There are obviously problems, which is why we need a legal path to employment and then we need to tax that. Let everyone in to find work - if they find it, they get taxed; crack down very heavily on unethical employers who aren't checking SS; and in the meanwhile you are erasing the profits of the coyotes, which are a major problem.
It's easier to crack down on the employers than it is to man thousands of miles of border around the clock.
Some of the other problems (urgent care costs on the health system, cost to education system) can be solved through other means. Health system overhaul has come up with lots of good ideas for the first; for the second, frankly, we need more money for education and there's no way around that. Taxing the workers should help offset the increased educational costs. As for housing assistance, I don't have a problem with it - if you're really that poor, and you qualify just like anyone else does, I don't have a problem. You have to show that you are working - in which case, why should we care? If you're concerned about housing assistance for the needy then you should better be looking at all the people who receive it who AREN'T looking for a job, or doing job training, or going to school. We already have lots and lots of those and honey, they ain't even illegal.
"Are you sure you want to jump into politics? going from an aspiring victoria secrets model to politics is quite a big jump."
And you'd rather have me stay at the victoria's secret modeling stuff and not get into politics huh?
"Also, there is nothing "illegal" about having the shit luck to be born into a shitty country, and attempting to better your life."
That's exactly what happened to me and my family,we came here and we got our green cards,paid hundreds of dollars,worked,paid taxes and now I'm getting my citizenship in a month.So basically I did it the LEGAL way so did my family.
actually id like to see you jump off a cliff.
if we have to give mexico back to the mexicans because we stole it from them, then the mexicans have to give mexico back to the aztecs, which they also stole. that's a rule, and it's only fair.
Well atleast you agree it was stolen and should be given back.
PS. most mexicans are a mix between Spanish and Native Mexican, idiot.
by the way thats a cool picture where did you get it? do you know what it refers to?
Almost all illegal immigrants pay for education as a majority of education funding in many states is paid by real estate taxes.
Since most illegals don't live just magically appear out of no where, most of them do end up paying at least real estate taxes. In addition, since most of them do buy things (because they need them to live)... they more than lively also pay sales taxes, various use taxes et cetera.
When it comes to insurance, automotive insurance and the like, there are usually various forms of semi-illegal middlemen who make a killing off of charging two-to-three times the amount one would normally pay for these services. When you combine higher overall expenses with meager wages (which lack the protection of the DOL), these people usually don't have very much money to spend on things like housing.
The majority of the people on welfare (who receive the highest proportion of money) are white-- call it disability, call it housing assistance, call it Section 8. It may not be foodstamps and social services welfare... but it is welfare none the less.
One generally has to be a citizen to qualify for housing assistance anyways as the process is very rigorous and thorough. The only organizations that are tremendously flexible and don't ask to many questions are major cities that operate semi-independent housing authorities outside of the Section 8 program (New York... and that's pretty much the end of the list.)
In either event, if one isn't checking paperwork to verify citizenship status, almost all illegals (as well as like 75%) of the United States qualify for Section 8 housing. I think the max income is $35,000 dollars-- I believe it is $44,000 in some big cities.
This ontop of the fact that while many of these programs are paid for by federal taxes, 45-50% of the population doesn't actually pay taxes. At the wage rates of most immigrants, many of them wouldn't pay taxes if they were citizens anyways.
This may be the first post of yours I ever agree with, Unicorn. You made my arguments in a more coherent form... I'm too exhausted to be posting, probably.
one thing to note:
At the wage rates of most immigrants, many of them wouldn't pay taxes if they were citizens anyways.
We would collect payroll taxes on them - is what I was referring to.
Hmmm, I don't see a lot of people throwing out the Blond haired, blue eyes French-Canadian illegal immigrants I only hear about them throwing out the brown-skinned dark featured Hispanics.
People can say it's not about racism all they want but it's racism, period. The thing about racism in these times is that it's not blatant, it's usually shrouded in some other "do good" type political action or "religious" nonsense. I have more respect for the idiotic KKK - at least they don't pretend to believe anything else than what they do despite how disgusting it may be.
We need to bring these migrant workers out the shadows. They are being exploited without being documented. We should have an amnesty program for illegal’s that are currently working and for the ones that aren’t working buy them a ticket back home.
And if Americans are so worried about losing jobs then maybe the government establishes a priority hiring list, citizens first then visa hires next. This will allow jobs that Americans don’t want get filled.
My gardener just arrived... have to go to the atm and get cash.
I don't see why we can't just open the borders, require an easy to apply for but difficult to pass citizenship exam (must know english, history of US, etc.), and just get EVERYone who wants to work here a tax ID number so we can end all this bitching about "I'm paying for their ______". If there's no need to work on the black market under the table, the concerns about lowered wages decrease because everyone can stand up for their rights without fear of deportation...
Isn't that how this country was founded???
RealLifeLEED, curiously enough, that's basically what George W was proposing - and guess what, industry stood AGAINST it, all but admitting that they are addicted to the absurdly cheap labor they get in illegals! So the AZ law is focusing on the wrong end of the stick - the illegals aren't the problem - we have an entire economic system built on their backs. If you don't want illegals, you need to fix the SYSTEM first. Go after the employers for hiring illegals at sub-minimum wage, and then make it so that whoever wants to work here, can.
Frankly - for those people always going on about how this country is becoming "socialist" - a little true competition in the employment market should be right up their alley. If you take illegal work out of the equation, thus restoring regular, legal low wage employment - and you suddenly dump in a few extra thousands of people fighting for those jobs - well, suddenly your own people need to shape up, or they won't be picked for a job, right? Should be RIGHT up a capitalist's alley!!!
But, oh, that would make it necessary for us to fix our under-funded and lax educational system, which requires taxpayer money. (scary!) That would also require some of our low-wage earners to, in all frankness, get a more competitive work ethic.
i dont have a ton to add to this conversation besides 2 things... im very proud of us for keeping this conversation away from the trolls... half way through i saw manta take a little bait but fortunately you werent swayed!
secondly... logistically, i have no idea how a law like this can be implemented without the most blatant racial profiling... its legitimizing and strengthening an already powerful institutional racism... we already arrest many times more blacks than whites... we already disregard (both legal and illegal) latino contributions to our economy... so now, rather than these being social and cultural conditions, they are government and institutional conditions... its bafflingly unfair...
Rachel Maddow last night was kind enough to enlighten us as to who these people really are who wrote this thing:
http://maddowblog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2010/04/29/4222854-post-show-factcheck-dan-stein-of-fair
I think since most white collar crimes are commited by middle aged, balding white men wearing suits and loafers, that they should have to present their bank account information to any official who...
No seriously, while I sympathize with the problems in AZ, I'm all for legal immigration. I think the best way to reduce the number of illegals is to crack down on employers who hire them to improve their bottom line. But those are mostly middle aged, balding white guys, and can't be bothered.
What Id love to see is cops in AZ start deporting white joggers and construction workers and upper-middle-class housewives clipping roses in their back yards for 'engaging in suspicious behavior without proof of citizenship'.
I think all of us knows there are some pretty common-sense ways to deal with this. But this law has nothing to do with common sense solutions. Its not even trying to be. Its intentionally vague, because its designed to be racially antagonistic.
And that for me is the real trouble. Everyone agrees the way were dealing with this now is fucked up. But for many people, even if you spent 100 billion dollars building a 60' electric laser field and parked half the national guard on the border and ran swat teams through the south west rounding up immigrants, they still wouldnt be happy. Because this has never really been about the law. The law is designed to reinforce their long-standing racial insecurities. I keep hearing all this bullshit about "Were being overrun!" and "Oh the crime!" as if this is some imminent catastrophe. Crime rates are consistently DOWN in the state. This is a crisis in your minds. Im from Vermont. I dont recall any huge national effort to stop rampant drug trafficking from canada through my state. Nobody gives a fuck. And I think if anyone is who's being honest with themselves knows why.
Im pretty happy actually to see people like Jeb Bush and Mike Bloomberg show some fucking courage and honesty and come out against this thing. But there is still this deep core of the republican party that cant help itself but to regress into the the Party of We Dont Like Your Kind Here. Its fucking tragic.
@Dallasarchitect:
"Hmmm, I don't see a lot of people throwing out the Blond haired, blue eyes French-Canadian illegal immigrants I only hear about them throwing out the brown-skinned dark featured Hispanics.
People can say it's not about racism all they want but it's racism, period. The thing about racism in these times is that it's not blatant, it's usually shrouded in some other "do good" type political action or "religious" nonsense. I have more respect for the idiotic KKK - at least they don't pretend to believe anything else than what they do despite how disgusting it may be."
That's what I fear,there is already a stereotype and face it, the non-white fall into this stereotype. I was thinking that in a crowd with a non-white citizen and a white illegal (ex...overstayed), the non-white will end being questioned, if not harassed for "'engaging in suspicious behavior without proof of citizenship'"...
here's the problem : there is really no path to citizenship other than through first degree relatives, marriages or employer sponsorship.
All of these take anywhere between 2-5 years to process during which you have very little freedom to make changes in your life, from the timing of your trips outside US to changing jobs or asking for a better salary.
sorry, processing time is for green card, it takes a decade or more to become a citizen, why does it have to be that way?
I'm all for rules, but this sounds more like Kafka's Amerika.
also, aside from racism, unconstitutionality and populism of this law, consider it's impracticality:
Immigration laws are very complicated, but I find that most people don't understand them and they don't know what documents are proof that you are legal, they don't know the difference between a visa stamp and legal status (they are not the same thing!), they don't know why I have to carry two passports and that my visa is still legal even though my passport is expired, they don't know that even though my visa looks ok, I might be illegal because I got laid off from my H1B visa job.
Police officers do not have the kind of training to understand these things.
A bit off topic, but here's another piece of new that I find alarming:
"Alabama Candidate Vows to Conduct Driver's Test Only in English"
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/04/29/alabama-candidate-vows-conduct-drivers-test-english/?test=latestnews
^^^News sorry about that!
no human is illegal
caryatid!
a friend of mine forwarded that Tim James add about getting rid of all non english drivers license exams the other day and i thought at first it was fake.
Partially because of the production, partially because of the ridiculous contemplative pause at the end, and partially because of the pure stupidity of his argument...
"this is alabama, we speak english... maybe its the business man in me, but we'll save money, and it makes sense..."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9ohsvJHkbY
^^Nice!
But you have to admit, illegal immigration is unfair to those who did it legally or at least found a way to legalize their stay.
illegal is illegal, I think we can all agree on that. The question is how do you either stop it from happening or make a path out for those in this situation that is fair to all parties.
No human is illegal,crossing the border without proper documentation IS.
"illegal is illegal."
Here's a list of beautiful things that would be illegal if done in Florida:
-- Men may not be seen publicly in any kind of strapless gown.
-- When having sex, only the missionary position is legal.
-- If an elephant is left tied to a parking meter, the parking fee has to be paid just as it would for a vehicle.
-- It is considered an offense to shower naked.
-- Penalty for horse theft is death by hanging.
-- A special law prohibits unmarried women from parachuting on Sunday or she shall risk arrest, fine, and/or jailing.
The problem with making 'illegal' immigration 'legal' has more to do with 'infrastructure' and location.
The United States currently has one Embassy in Mexico City and 9 Consulates (almost all of which are across the border). The issue here is that many Mexicans don't know that they can go to these places, many of them cannot afford to go to these places and many of them are discouraged from doing so.
On top of that, these Consulate offices (especially in the border area) are frequently closed for all sorts of reasons.
They should do what I remember that use to be done was reenacting a cross border safe zone (50-10 miles) in from the border and relocate or dissemble many of the Consulate offices and place them on the other side of the border.
Like many government services, it is a question of ease of access rather than actual access.
I say this because sometime around the mid 90s they switched from an open border to a zero tolerance border. Mexican nationals could drive as far north as 60-80 miles north of the border before INS agents started seriously checking identity.
And most of the time the INS agents would simply turn around the Mexicans rather than locking them up and extraditing them.
they don't know they can get there? seriously, i think you are beating a dead horse.
It's more likely that the people who chose to cross border illegally know they don't have a strong case to get a proper visa.
Questioning the term "illegal" with outdated examples is really not helping the case of these people who have broken a federal law.
One thing I don't understand is... As a citizen, the only ID I carry normally is my driver's license. Lets say, for sake of argument I've been pulled over in Arizona for speeding and asked to prove I'm a LEGAL immigrant/permanent resident alien or a citizen. How would I prove that I am since as a citizen I don't carry proof that I'm one? NOT having documentation that says I'm a legal alien doesn't prove I'm here illegally. I think its pretty safe to say that this is not the kind of scenario that this bill is supposed to be dealing with (not that this makes it any better or worse)
The way I'm reading this is that this is really a move to increase authority and limit liability of LEOs, stemming from frustration with current limitations and exposure to liability while doing their work (this is purely my perception from my reading, so take it for what its worth). The increase in potential for racial profiling and abuse of our rights seem to be an unfortunate unintended outcome of this attempt at removing obstacles for the LEOs to do their work.
Intended or not, however, racial profiling is racial profiling, and abuse of our rights is abuse of our rights.
also, 4th amendment? you have the right to refuse to show ID and you can't be arrested for just that.
lol, you know you have a weak argument when you begin to question the term "illegal" comparing to outdated examples.
They're not outdated. They are still on the law books. And those are just obvious examples. It costs money to keep these things on the books.
Most of them are the result frivolous lawsuits anyways.
The immigration system, like the prison system, functions purely out of tradition and steadfastness.
Like the prison system, there are many examples that show that our current system does not practically function. Or rather, it does not produce the intended results with the amount of money we currently invest into those programs.
It is an issue with escalation, a culture of violence and retaliation. You push the issue, the issue gets pushed back at you harder. I can see why people would defend the system-- there is billions of dollars of public money being pumped into the border states funding all sorts of programs to combat these "issues."
And as long as we keep pushing the concept of "America" through subversive cultural imperialism, people will continue to want to come here under whatever pretension was feed to them. The U.S. spends a lot of money overseas to talk about how great the U.S., sends volunteers and aid to show off the wealth of the U.S. and sets up programs like the Peace Corps to show off even more.
You want people to stop coming to this country? Start by telling people how awful it is. Start by telling them that tremendous amount of scam businesses there are here. Tell them that nearly every aspect of their life has been reduced down to a corporate marketing strategy. Tell them that the entire American Dream is a carefully crafted product marketing vehicle designed to get you to buy expensive machines and make foolish land purchases.
And also tell the moment they stop having money, they'll basically be dumped off near an interstate off ramp to live in the woods and beg for money at gas stations.
lletdownl
You know the saying, "when in Rome, do what the Romans do", but on the other hand, I think the guy pushing for this change has to put into consideration the new (legal) migrants who have yet to brush up on their English skills yet want to drive or do what normal residents do. No English doesn't necessarily mean illegal. I mean, I'm lucky I was raised and educated in English, but say I wasn't and I still have trouble READING English (geez, I still have trouble READING my native language :P) -- how am I, a new resident supposed to live normally and take the driver's test if I can't fully comprehend it yet?
I know the naturalization test requires basic English - - that, I understand completely. It takes at least 4 years before you can apply for citizenship and given you want to be a citizen you should have at the very least made an effort to learn the language of the majority. But for a legal migrant, say, "fresh off the boat" - - it's a bit unfair to deny him/her the right to take the test just because she's struggling with English.
hiding behind their macbooks describing the horrors and deceit of america.
also, what if you're illegal and get beat up by a bunch of haters, would you dare to call the police?
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