Hello,
I would like everyone's opinion on something I have been thinking about for a little while. I, like many people, am looking for an architecture job and recently graduated with my MArch degree. I have been talking to the HR lady from a firm I am interested in for several months now. I have interviewed there twice and was told they were interested but cannot afford to hire anyone at this time. Since then I have been checking in regularly and in the most recent email the HR woman said things were picking up but not quite to the point of being able to hire someone yet.

So my question is this. Does it sound too desperate or weird if I were to offer to work their for free for a month or two, just to get my foot in the door? I am sure I am not the only person who has thought of this, but I am just wondering what you all think. Any opinions from employers about how that would look would be especially helpful. Thank you

Yes! It sounds like you have a really good chance of getting a job when things pick up. I wouldn't ruin it by doing this.

Don't do it. If you give them an inch they will take a mile. You would just be setting yourself up to be taken advantage of.

You also have to keep in mind that "picking up" is speculative. Who knows if the project(s) that are in the works will actually go through. Lots of offices get phone calls but it seems like very little makes it past schematic design. You could end up working for free for months.

I know it's rough out there. I've already been laid off twice this year. Being a recent graduate makes it that much harder. I would wait until they could offer you something with pay. It sounds like you have a good chance when they are able to hire someone which is more than a lot of people can say.

I was considering a similar option to mardix at one point.
from discussing it with a couple of arch friends, they made many good points NOT to volunteer or work for free.

-everyone in the office would KNOW that you are volunteering -- b/c there is not enough work you would end up getting coffee and running errands for people, and IF/WHEN you got hired it might be difficult to transition into having your co-workers respect you and your place in the firm

-at what point would the volunteer job transition into part-time or fulltime???
you've already been working for free -- they will be more inclined to low ball a salary or hourly rate

-you are not looking for a summer internship so working for free does nothing to help you honestly...

-you are offering them a huge asset[your time and skills] without them offering anything concrete...are they PROMISING you a job?? did you get it in writing?? SERIOUSLY?? b/c it's doubtful that they would make a deal like that...if they WOULD then they would OFFER YOU A JOB, and PAY you for your time.

these were a couple of the points that friends made when i told them that i was considering the "try before you buy". in the end i just don't think it's worth it.
better options to consider are:
-offering to work part time until full-time work is available
-offering to help on a specific project as a contract employee until they can actually hire you

BOTH of these options mean you will be paid. after school is out, you're cheating yourself if you work for free.

I agree with the opinions above: don't work for free. Continue to check in with the firm, and let them know you're interested when they have a paying position.

please don't work for free.
and i agree with architorture.
if they have work, they would afford to hire you. don't forget the loads of money you just invested for grad school and the skills you have. don't sell yourself short.
maybe pick up a competition in the meantime. at the very least, it would keep you fresh and portfolio material.
i was in a similar position until today. after all the back and forth, i am finally offer a position with proper pay.
good luck.

by extension, if their workload is slow they've probably got paid folk doing some busy work, filing, library organization, maybe competitions, maybe work that is loss-leader-type work, etc. if you become available for free and can pick up that kind of work, you may be indirectly responsible for a paid person becoming superfluous.

working for free isn't good for anyone.

i disagree with everyone above. you need to get you foot in the door and if you feel this is a way to do then go for it. we all have to make sacrifices to get to where we want to be and, relatively speaking, passing up a few dollars is a small price to pay. if someone else in the office loses their job because you're willing to do the same task for less, well then, that's just the icing on the cake, isn't it?

most of the posters above are speaking from a position of fear. they're afraid for their owns jobs & that someone like you will undercut them in the marketplace. they're only telling you not to do it in an effort to protect their own interests. this is perfectly understandable for those that already have a job...but you don't and you do want one, yes? true power in this profession is being able & willing to work for less.

there may some middle ground worth considering.

some years back, I interviewed a young woman who just completed her degree. we weren't busy at the time and didn't have a position available for her. however, during the interview she mentioned that she'd be willing to come in on a daily basis if we needed some short term help. I filed that casual remark away in the back of my brain.

about a week after the interview, we needed someone on short notice to help finish up some presentation boards -- this was only 2 days of work. I felt this young woman could help and asked her if she was interested - we said we'd pay her for her time. she jumped at the chance, did a terrific job, amazed everybody with her enthusiasm and ability ... and she never left. We were so impressed, we put her on the payroll full time.

hiring can be a risky business ... firms generally like to know a lot about candidates before making a permanent commitment. If you can work out a "try it before you buy it" situation, you might just be able to parlay that short term gig into something more substantial.

good luck.

I just recently tried the same thing with a firm in NYC.

Before starting I was in love with the firm and had and the idea in my mind that this would work out wonderfully.

Soon after starting I realized that they saw it simply as an opportunity to get free work. They were never going to hire me full-time regardless of my performance and no matter what new jobs came in.

Worse yet, they really didn't respect my time, effort or the sacrifice I was making by working for them for free.12 hour day working 7 days a week.

I know people have spoken against this practice often on the forum, and I naively thought to myself "but that is them, I’m different, it will work out great for me.” Wrong.

The experienced sucked for me, but that isn’t to say that I couldn’t work for anyone else with a different firm under a different set of circumstances.

Just be careful, and make sure you that they respect the sacrifice it takes for you to work for no pay.

Good luck.

ps. I’m still unemployed, but I think I learned a valuable lesson.

wow thanks everyone. I wasn't expecting such a near unanimous opinion. All the points that were brought up make sense. I guess I will continue to check in with them and hope for the best!

Yeah, don't work for free. Like all college education, our degrees are not free and we earn these degrees in order to make a living. and if someone was willing to let you "work for free" they should be reported at once.

Offering to work for free to "get your foot in the door" doesn't even look very noble from a professional point of view either. For example, if I was interviewing someone who offered to work for free, I would consider that individual desperate, weak, and very vulnerable to people taking advantage of them.

Best advice is to keep applying for other jobs. You'll see that when things get better, firms will be hiring like crazy. Example -- in 2007 I think that the only requirement to gain employment at a firm was to have a pulse.

I tend to agree with architorture...but in an appended fashion:

The only situation where I'd consider working for free would be for a defined period of time or for a specific project. You wouldn't be afraid of being taken advantage of, and the people in your firm wouldn't feel awkward, either. Your role and boundaries could be defined to that project or length of time, and I imagine negotiation would be very easy from there. Additionally, once this time is up it provides an easy point for you and the firm to consider a transition from free to hire, without any real fuss.

Essentially, you'd be a consultant that works for free, rather than someone who is there for an arbitrary amount of time to do anything that's asked.

That being said, if you're currently financially stable and not doing completely crazy, it might just be better to wait until there's a paid position available. I realize that the idea of getting into an office and working is deliciously enticing, but remember that it might just be worth it if you can hold out a bit longer. It just depends on your situation, and the firm's situation, I suppose.

offer to work for free? - what typically happens, is that you could be working there for free for a while, then they hire someone else for pay, someone who is better than you - then you are left holding the bag because you sold yourself short. Nobody likes to hire or be with a person who sells themselves short -

..and not only would you be there for free. You also are then losing your own time that could be used for looking for paying jobs, earn other form of income, develop cv and portfolio, work on competitions, watch great daytime television..

People inexperienced in business think compensation relates to expense - if I can work for free, the employers get a good deal because they won't have to pay me. They get what I have cheaper, and that's good. Right?

Wrong. Experienced businesspeople relate compensation with value. if you possess a certain level of "sale-ability", meaning they can sell your services for a certain dollar, then you provide value to the firm, and you generate a collective worth for what you are individually paid. Provide more value, your services go for more money, and you get paid more. If you work for free, it connotes that you have nothing of value to sell, because they can't sell your services for enough money to provide your compensation. Contrary to popular belief, businesses don't want stables of the lowest-wage earners possible. Businesses want people earning across the spectrum depending on the needs of the products they produce or the services they provide, balancing the value and talents of their workforce with the needs and problems of their clients, and at a profit, because profit is the engine of company growth.

The other side of the "nothing of value to sell" coin is where you actually reside. If there is nobody on the other side of the trade, nobody there to whom your services can be sold, as in no clients, then they can't sell you out to generate revenue. That's why they don't hire you, not because they don't want to pay your expense, but because there's nowhere to deploy your value toward revenue generation. Your working for free would actually *cost* rather than save the company money - you would be underfoot, doing menial unbillable or overhead work, requiring someone to take the time of managing you with no corresponding generation of revenue. This is all not to mention the comments above, rightly posted, stating that you will yourself lower your own intrinsic value by working for free. How will you turn around later and demand money, after you've worked for free? What changed? Are you suddently smarter and better and more experienced and able to sell for a profit now, and you weren't all this time? Working for free doesn't work.

If I were you I would look way outside the box for an opportunity to keep your lights on while monitoring this firm constantly. Getting a job loading trucks, for example, would prove that you're willing to find, recognize and generate value to an organization - and to yourself - while waiting for an opportunity at the firm you want to arise.

I knew a guy when I worked at SOM who wanted to work there, and only there. While he waited for an opportunity there to surface he worked in the men's department at Marshall Fields. When he finally got an opportunity to join SOM he could show that he didn't just sit around, he worked and worked well, generating glowing recommendations at Field's which proved to the SOM'ers that he was a capable worker, no matter what he was doing. That's the kind of impression you want to leave, one of being an all-around asset. You don't want people to think you don't know how the world of work actually... works. :-)

I disagree with most as well. In many businesses, architecture included, companies will work for no pay in order to establish a relationship and (hopefully) get the job (if and when it becomes 'real').


I don't see much difference in doing what you are suggesting. This is a unique time with unique challenges.

Pros: - if you get your foot in the door, you exponentially increase the odds that you'll be hired
- you'll express a genuine interest in their firm, not just any firm hiring (do some homework, know what they could use help with and offer it)
- it'll express ambition

Crucial - make a proposal, a clear statement of your intent, what you will offer, for how long, and what you hope to get out of it. Make it very clear you are interested in working for them, specifically, and what you can offer beyond free labor. Establish a very, very clear timeframe and show how it will be a win/win, mutually beneficial situation.

As with most things in life, particularly business, communication and establishing clear expectations is absolutely crucial. Do not just show up for and get everyone coffee. Make it clear you will work for free but you #1 what specific experience along side the bs and #2 that you hope/expect to be hired should business get better and they need your position (and talk/ask if they truly will, with someone beyond the hr person).
If you work for free, you have the upper hand with negotiations, take advantage of that.


Cons: - you could be taken advantage of, the economy may not recover and they might not hire anyone
- they could hire someone else and just say 'thanks' (although you would still have a name on your resume, and, most likely, you'll get some kind of support as you helped them)
- it is possible they could have others doing 'free' work just to keep busy (although I would never say 'don't work' because you might take someone else's job - that's business)

No reason you have to stop looking for other jobs, too.


If it were me, I'd do what I could to gain experience and get a foot in the door. Personally, from a business standpoint, when I offered small 'free' things in the beginning the result has been loyal clients that have tremendously helped my business grow (instrumental, really).

what the piss... it aint bad if you get reacharounds.

You don't talk to HR ladies.You find the "decision maker" and talk to him/her directly. HR people are not your friend.

Me,I'd NEVER work for free even if it was an internship! When you're working there you should be learning and contributing something to the firm and the firm should be making money through your efforts even if you get 10$ p/h. Call me shallow,I don't care.As I said working for no compensation is downright insulting to me,I'd rather go wash dishes at a restaurant but at least I could pay my bills like that. Actually lots of architecture students do that for free when they "intern" at architecture firms,at least at restaurants you get paid for it! Ha!

Working for free means not only that you're valuing your skills at zero, but that you're devaluing the entire profession and making it more acceptable for firms to not pay or lowball their employees. Working at a cafe or washing dishes at a restaurant has far more dignity than being someone's bitch.

say... you're an architecture student, don't have any work experience and take up an unpaid internship because you really want the real-world experience.

for the next "internship" , will it matter if the previous one was paid or not. like on your resume and interview.

Puddles said "true power in this profession is being able & willing to work for less."

Its thinking like that, that brings the industry down...

Ever wonder why architect wages are so low, Why architects dont have the same level of respect as say doctors, or Lawyers...

DONT WORK FOR FREE

There was a lot of faulty logic in previous comments. But I can wholeheartedly agree that one should not work for free IN THIS PROFESSION. Not because there is something inherently wrong with working for free. But in the profession of architecture, this is used and abused. While other professions have trade unions, we have the next best thing to slavery. So, the reason not to work for free is the reason not to support this trend.

Otherwise, there is nothing wrong with working for free, in other professions. It is called volunteering and it is usually done either in order to gain experience, or to help a noble cause.
It is done in order to gain experience when the person doesn't have enough skills to really contribute to company's profit. Consider a wannaby web designer. She may have learned a little bit of HTML but she comes from a diffenent background and wants to change profession. She knows neither web not design but wants to work. In this case, she can start working for free for a web design company. She would get as much in experience as the company would get in value from her work, so it's a fair deal.

Compare with architecture. A person who has studies for 5 years for an architecture degree is not a skill-less, value-less person. To say otherwise is a straight bullshit. To say that such person's work doesn't contribute to company's profit is bullshit.

Other volunteering usually is for noble cause, for example for Red Cross, helping poor and disabled, etc. Compare with architecture. Imaging you go working for free and the project you get to work on is a competition project. This is a project for developing a prime, very exslusive peace of land to parcel into plots for multi-millionaire villas. You have to come up with ideas to make these plots so attractive as to be worth those unbelievable prices. You have to think about questions like: "do the need 4- or 6- car garage?", "would the guest parking for 8 cars be enough?" "do they need a second access road to the house to be used only by service personnel?" etc. To top this, remember this is a competition project, so maybe your ideas, no very noble to begin with, will get thrown in the basket anyway. Now, do you really consider this a noble cause to work on for free? Just for the record: yes, this is a real project that I was asked to work on for free. I am glad that I've only agreed to work on this for pay.

If you still choose to work for free, do it as volunteering and think of it this way. If the company cannot offer you a pay position, that means they don't have enough of one of those 2 things: work and/or money. If they don't have work, it will be bad to volunteer, because you'll get to do some useless work. If they have work and don't have money (= the economy is so bad that even with all this work, they hardly make ends meet), then it may be ok to volunteer (you get work), but it doesn't make sense to hope for money (there is none). It is not wise to hope that money would "suddenly appear" and will be given to you. Maybe (probably) if the company doesn't have money, then it has debts. Probably, if the money would appear, it will be immediately spent to pay those debts. Etc. etc.

oh sorry for the many misspellings :)

A number of years ago, some of the NY starchitects took on unpaid "interns". The State of NY went after them, claiming it was a scheme to avoid payroll taxes. There was talk of "peonage" (the modern legal term for slavery). The NY AIA was forced to issue guidelines for internships. I don't remember all the guidelines, but working from within the office was an indication the firm was using the intern to avoid actually employing them. I say if the employer actually has work to do, hire them. "Arbeit macht frei"

I still see ads for unpaid positions today.

I believe the unpaid intern problem is systemic in this profession. There are plenty of willing participants on both sides of this equation who support it wholeheartedly, otherwise, it couldn't exist. And I don't believe there is either a short, or long term, cure. There are always those willing to feed this fire more oxygen.

The problem, as I see it, is outsourcing.

Almost all citizens, businesses, commercial entities, (whatever name economists/social philosophers ascribe to it), who are actively engaged in a "modern" (how I loath this word now) economy, attempt it, in both the public and private realms.

It's a bona fide effort to reduce that particular entities' cost for existing.

In architecture's case, as a "labor" intensive industry, (aside from outsoucing work to rendering farms abroad, another thread), the only alternative available is the above mentioned "peonage." I'm not sure about the historical precedence of this, but it seems like nowadays, good ol' Mum and Dad are ever willing to allow this to continue; I can't imagine that commercial entities, i.e., banks are the source of these funds. It's also certainly more complex than this, as there are myriad other factors at play.

How about if we insist on having legislation written that Mum and Dad can't provide checks to support this? That'll be a hoot.

Let's hear from both the socialists and capitalists!

Sensible capitalist speaking here:

I've never understood why anyone would voluntarily work for free within a "for profit", private organization? Would you not think this undermines the quantitative and qualitative value one (architect) brings to the profession? To me, it is sort of this dog-and-pony-show of our own services, or a caricature for the client to laugh at. I would.

If you want to volunteer, get involved with AfH, H4H, Peace Corps, etc. I can speak to the first two, and they are wonderful organizations.

Rob Newhouse (Office Space): Conjugal visits? Mmmm. Not that I know of. Y'know, minimum-security prison (working for free) is no picnic. I have a client in there right now. He says the trick is: kick someone's ass the first day, or become someone's bitch. Then everything will be all right. W-Why do you ask, anyway?

This is typically how it works... :)

market value of an asset is the value placed on the asset (your ability to work) by the marginally satisfied buyer (your prospective employer) and seller (yourself) and occurs at the intersection of the demand and supply schedules

In other words your forfeiting the prospect of there being any demand (potential of employment) for your ability/capacity to work (the supply, in this case).

. . . . . . . .

From the "Is architecture degrading or is it just me?" thread:

"I've been on Archinect for a year and keep reading about how everyone laments the profession, how we under-sell ourselves, how we have the most training for the least pay-off, etc etc.

Is anyone ever going to DO anything about this? Will there be a new architecture revolution? Or are we just going to keep kvetching about it?"

Sbeth85

Total Entries: 9
Total Comments: 72

11/10/09 11:52

. . . . . . . . .

My answer would be yes, to some extent the (pseudo)professional-culture can be "degrading", but to some extent we do it to ourselves (tail-between-legs syndrome).

I suggest that the JPR talk mentioned in the other thread has just as much bearing on the topic of fee and compensation structure as it does on the topic of varying business models and the distribution of liability.

>end of rant<

you're not your*...clearly :)

To me anyone who works for free has the word "sucker" writen in big bold letters on their forehead.

And to me architects who are looking for people to work free only to take an advantage of them are nothing more than giant douchebags. There is absolutely no excuse -- NONE. If they are busy and need help that means they have work and having work means they have a few bucks to pay their interns.

So yeah again don't tell me to work for free. Pay for my fucking degree first and then maybe we can talk about it.

When I was looking for work (before going back to school) I told myself that I would consider making a proposition with a firm. I would volunteer my services with that firm if they let me use their equipment/tools so that I could enter a competition. If the firm were to win the competition, they would have work, and would have to hire me full time or for at least the duration of the project. If the competition placed but did not win, we would split the earnings, and if the competition didn't win, I would split, and at the very least, have some portfolio material/resume builder stuff to add to my value as i went back on the search.

but i wouldn't recommend just working for free. that makes you a slave. or even worse, a slave with debt.