damn, they must have made a mistake and hired and engineer...or an unlicensed architect or interior designer....cause we work for peanuts when you compare us to Lawyers, Doctors or Engineers or for that matter Goverment Workers. This is the truth my friend, Architecture is a very time consuming profession....it is not point and click like so many believe. Think about it when you go out to eat at a fancy place what kind of tip do you leave.....20% if the service is respectable. If they are paying over 20% of the cost of construction, I would say they are being ripped off. Otherwise payup and quite crying. If the roof leaks sue the Architect. If you live in the house for twenty years and they are a good twenty years you should let the Architect know it was his design that made you stay and enjoy your life.

Depends on the client. but 90 is minimum

Where do you work, Studio? Are you an intern architect, or a principal? Would you charge that much if you were freelancing?

on any project, I charge different rate for different task, (i.e. design, drafting, accounting, admin. etc.) Just like any office, they charge a different rate for task by different position (i.e. staff, admin, vs. principal.)

you may charge 90 for architectural services, but you shouldn't charge 90 for drafting or administrative tasks. The overhead carried by a firm of 1 person or 3000 will have a wide range of difference, therefore the rate of each tasks will vary.

That being said, a normal rate for a single person firm can charge 90 for architectural services and 30 for admin. services, while a large firm may charge 150/75 because of the overhead cost associated with running the business.

Residential or not it is perhaps the complexity of the project that will determine how many hours will be needed to complete the work.

If a client is surprise at what you are charging him/her for paper architecture, there is something wrong when the project was initiated and commissioned.

Generally: 150/hr design, 75/hr drafting, and we end up billing right around 10-12% of the construction cost. This is in the Midwest; on the coasts, you'd pay 20% and up for custom residential.

But this is what's important: When you amortize out 10-20% over the life of the mortgage, you're looking at architect's fees being about a 4% upcharge in the overall cost of the project. Isn't it worth paying 4% more for something you will love for 30 years? (The sickening flip side of that is, if you sell the house you'll pay a realtor 7% just to fill out some paper work, yet no one ever balks at *that* cost. grrrr....).

From God's mouth to Liberty Bell's ear. I'll add not all projects are the same and there could be all sorts of fee structures and delivery methods. I prefer flat fees based on a good 15%(or more) of construction cost in a high end residential market, and I'm usually within 5-10% of my estimated cost of construction. We ask 25% upfront after an initial design meeting(s) where I keep all the sketches and materials produced and do not hand them over until the payment is received. 50% (usually) upon sign off on the design and bid documents. We go right into Construction drawings and typically have no problem making changes or spending time with the client doing all manner of product selection. Finally 25% upon significant completion which is more often times about 3 months after move in.

I will add the most important question the architect should ask and the customer should answer honestly is, "Whats your budget"? I like to sit down in the home at the first meeting and make a realistic assessment of the project. Sometimes people get sticker shock and walk away but honest budgeting and professionalism from all involved makes projects great.

Fees right now are taking a huge hit. Unless someone is really sold on you, bidding wars on jobs is pretty brutal.

Yes Make - I forgot to mention I haven't done any significant work in over a year. Thanks the reminder.

Yea, Jack, I think that up-front realism is a really good idea for homeowners.


Here, check this out, guys.

Basically, my relative went to this single-person architecture office in their suburban midwestern town. After two hours of design consultation, he leaves the office and later receives these two .pdfs. Bear in mind, the architect was given scanned existing plans and elevations, so he wouldn't have had to construct these drawings from scratch in CAD, he could refer to these scanned .pdfs.

Anyways, the project entails a simple two room addition onto my relative's house. That is, the kitchen and the sun room are what's added/new. (and the 1-car garage being extended into a 2-car garage). The elevation's are the same, except that the front porch is modified, and the back elevation now has a bit of an extension. Everything else in the plan is just existing.

http://www.daapspace.daap.uc.edu/~kehlje/1.pdf
http://www.daapspace.daap.uc.edu/~kehlje/2.pdf


Anyways, the bill ended up being $2,000. I guess I'm a little skeptical... it seems like I could have made these drawings (as an undergraduate architecture student) in an absolute maximum of 4-6 hours.

So, with two hours of consultation, 6 hours (let's be generous) of CAD work, and maybe 2-3 (again, generous) hours of design work, does this bill make sense?

In your guys' opinion, is that a fair approximation of the hours the architect might have put it on this addition project? If so, does a 2,000 billing make sense?

Aaand, the only reason why I'm even here asking these questions is because the architect (or the client) never even apparently thought about signing a contract.

So, the architect's done this work without any sort of signature from the client, and without informing the client (my relative) of his billing rates or fees.

Anyways, that's why I've been asked by my relative to investigate the matter, because there is obviously wiggle room on the billing without a contract.

Well I like to say it didn't just take 6 hours of work but rather years of practice plus 6 hours of work. $2000 seems extremely reasonable. Where does the Architect's role end? Permitting? Conceptual Design? Bid Supervision? Construction Supervision? This is clearly only a start. There's at least one beam needed between the kitchen and dinning area that has to be engineered as well as footings and roof structure where it overhangs the entry. Whats up with the high foundation line? Whats under this house? What type of soil? Drainage? Existing electric service and sewage or lack there of? I see no thought given to mechanical systems, wheres the existing plumbing vents? What about attic venting? The questions could be endless.

Im not familiar with Newark Ohio but that looks like $60,000 addition to me assuming average finishes and low labor rate. 10% would be $6,000 to start, but I would assume the Architect would coordinate the selection of cabinetry, appliances, finishes, windows and doors as well as exterior products with the owner and contractor before starting or at least demand approval of proposed components.

I hope you could see where years of experience and practice would warrant a decent fee. Assuming the architect only did these types of jobs, at $2000 a job they would need to do 30 of them a year to make $60,000. If that was the case there would be no Architects.

Thats my free drive by consultation, good luck.

PS - add a closet near the entry for petes sake.

well, if i was going to buy a car, i would probably do some research, solicit some prices goto the dealer, test drive it before proceeding to make a deal.

on the other hand, the architect should have issued a proposal so the client is aware of how much the service would cost.

as the client, you can simply say, " i never asked you to proceed with the work." of course, a verbal agreement may have occurred hence the work being done.

realistically, $2000 for those drawings are not a big stretch, provided the architect finish the drawings for township/dob approval, if required in your state. If not required, the architect should at least provide a biddible set with foundation detail, size footing and typical wall sections etc.

I am ball parking here, but the addition is about 550sf.
lets say the construction cost is $100/sf = $55000

normal arch. fee 10% x $55000 = $5500

so if the architect is to finish the job for you, $5500 final fee is reasonable.

p.s. $100/sf is considered very low here on the east coast.

average is probably around $180/sf

I'll go 5,499 Chuck. I want this gem in my portfolio.

$100/sf?

my old employer wouldn't touch remodels under $300.

the city blueprint font has got to go...

personally i prefer jobs I worked on, around $2500/sf :)

I have a relative in the schematic design phases of a house addition as well. Aside from some "free" advise I've given my role is nil. Originally I told them to hire an Architect and offered some suggestions. Yes, that went over like a lead balloon because of the fees. They were hearing the usual 10-15% or over $100/hr.

Not sure about you guys but most middle-income people I know are just like K-12 Public School clients I've had. They want to maximize their sq. ft. for the minimal amount of cost.

So, when my relatives start shopping around for a contractor they find more than a couple that are 100% willing to do the design for them and "not charge anything for it." Yes, they are paying for it, but it's hidden in the larger contract and they think they're getting a good deal where as the Architect was trying to rip them. That's honestly what we are up against in the mid-tier residential market.

I've heard some crappy AIA radio ads trying to promote the value of an Architect for home additions, etc. Still we have a huge uphill battle trying to convince people the value of our work.

I usually tell clients that only rich people hire architects because it can get expensive. With this tiny house, of course somebody is going to have problems with the fee.

And by the way, I think that the fee is way high. Even if I started from scratch and got to the level of what you attached on here, it would have taken me about 3 hours max, so I'm really not sure where the fee comes from. That is of course if you are only charging hourly.

My former boss, never took any jobs that were under $1500, because it's not worth it at all...So if you want anything, expect a bill of $1500.

poop, did you read what LB wrote about amoritising the design fee over the life of the note? Assume that house is $200,000 and is getting 60,000 put into it. A 30 year refinance would be about $1,300 / month mortgage payment. With full service architect's fee that payment factored in is $1,375 / month.

As LB said, people dont hesitate to pay the real estate broker fee of 7% for filling out the paper work to sell your house, people dont balk at $100 / month or more for cable TV, but less than $100 / month for a properly designed home IN WHICH YOU LIVE EVERYDAY is a rip off? Good Lord people whats wrong with us?

As an engineer, my office typical bills around $140/hr or $150/hr, though we don't make distinctions for drafting vs. design services and in general, we bill the same for all the engineers, regardless of experience level. Also, as others have noted, most jobs aren't actually done hourly, and instead are bid with a maximum price, with sperate hourly rates for additional services, site visits, etc. The actual hourly rate tends to decrease as the project size increase, kind of an economy of scales thing. We also have minimum costs for projects, we normally aren't going to touch something that is likely to only return an hour or two of work.

As for Architects under cutting each other's prices out of desperation to get work, I think it is a practice that should be discouraged, otherwise you will just end up racing one another to the bottom, where none of your work is valued at all.

I hope none of you guys posting rates are AIA 'cause it's a problem:

Do not have discussions with other members
or competitors about any of the following
subjects (unless you’ve first consulted legal
counsel):
¨ your prices for products or services, or
prices charged by your competitors

http://www.aia.org/aiaucmp/groups/aia/documents/pdf/aiap074119.pdf

Don't know about non-members but the same probably applies to you. Read any publication on design practice and they will tell you: don't talk to competitors about prices.
Good ol' anti-trust laws.

I think it's fair to say we've entered a new era where the old rules no longer apply. It would be hard for the AIA to track down poop876 or niro or FP. I happen to believe that talking about fees is THE only way for designers to get some appreciation of their worth (or lack there of)

The AIA is not the best group to go to for business advice unless you are dealing in major construction projects like Hospitals or government work. For the majority of us practicing architects a good lawyer is much more economical and beneficial to our practices than the AIA.

I just have to repeat again what Jack said: It's 20 years experience plus 6 hours of work! For chriss-fucking-sake! Go to a lawyer and you'll spend $2,000 on the initial phone conversation! Go to an accountant and you'll spend money to save money! Go to a decent hairdresser and you'll spend $75 for an hour of washing and clipping! We pay professionals to do things for us because we don't have expertise in the area that the professional has devoted their life to learning about!

As for those contractors that throw in the design "for free": they are the reason crappy contractors give the entire industry a bad name. A good contractor - and there are lots of them out there if one is smart enough to shop around - knows where his/her skills lay and has no problem working with a decent designer. Two heads are better than one and all.

aceclubs, if the AIA chooses to kick me out over giving an example of my fees here I'll gladly take the $600 I pay them every year along with the 30 hours of donated time I've spent on them this year so far and go home.

Also, Jack, I'm so glad you can bring a sense of humor to all this. After the last six weeks of my professional life I'm finding it very difficult to laugh, much closer to the cry end of the spectrum.

ace - that document is written to protect the AIA as an organisation, not the Architect themselves. The AIA was found to be in violation of antitrust in the1980s I believe for puiblishing suggested fee schedules.

I'm with you Jack, we do need to communicate and AIA will not stop me. I gave up on AIA long time ago and everybody around me too.

Also, when you're talking about a "simple" addition of a kitchen there is no such thing. The kitchen is the most complex room in a house unless you have a meth lab or something in there. Tell your relatives $2k is a bargain just for what they've gotten so far!

No, I'm not an AIA member. I was also not aware that discussions about fees are unacceptable to the AIA. Whether or not it violates any other antitrust laws, I have no idea.

But, I don't know of a single architect who does not discuss their rates with other architects. How else does one know what your current service value is? Or whether you are under- or over-billing for your services? With fees in constant flux based on specific client needs, varied scope of services, the economy, etc, it's hard to imagine that disclosing this info is detrimental to our profession. It most likely is the opposite.

lb,
I'm not sure if it's a bargain for what they got. There is a difference between charging $200/hr and doing 4 hrs of work and charging $2000 for the 4 hrs.

Unless the $2000 is the minimum fee for any job, I don't see how that fee is reasonable for the work done.

Like in Synergies firm, we should set minimum fees for all work done, be that 10 hrs to cover the minimum fee or 1 hr.

It's wierd. Part of me wants to say 2,000 clams for space planning a fucking kitchen in an afternoon is a rip-off... while part of me, as an architecture student, wants to see things the way you grown-up architects do.

I guess my perspective will change when I graduate and start working full-time? =P

Risk. Even if the drawing looks very simple and plain, it has to work the way the drawing shows. If it doesnt, there risk. I work on old buildings all the time and am amazed at how little info besides a simple section, plan and elevation is all they needed to make masterpieces.

I've done these schematic proposals many times and the one thing that I HATE the MOST is when the client goes to a contractor with these drawings and gets a price. After he realizes how much it is and decides that he will not be building it, for some fucking reason they think they don't have to pay us for the initial schematic drawings.

Or if the city/county/whoever does not approve their project they think they don't have to pay us since the project is a no go.

Risk is exactly the issue, as Jack said.

poop, I totally don't get your point and am too wired on anger and frustration to try to parse it out.

$2k is not much money. It doesn't matter at all if someone did the actual drawing - the recording of the ideas - in 1 hour of 40. The client is buying a product: a kitchen and sunroom addition. A contractor can easily roll $2k into his fee because he's upcharging 5x that on the cabinets he buys. When what you have to sell is your expertise in the form of drawings, it doesn't matter how long the labor takes, it matters how good your expertise is.

Honestly, two thousand dollars is not much money. And I don't say that as some snobby high-end-only architect to the stars. I'll bet the owners of this house pay 1/3 of that every month in mortgage. The appliances for this kitchen will be more than $2k. Hell, you can spend that amount at Lowe's on a mid-level refrigerator!

I have a great zen story to tell you guys if I can find it. Give me a minute.

I always thought it was the husband's secretary or the wife's decorator friend giving the value judgement on professional architect's services.
Now it is the architecture student relative. Jack and lb are absolutely right. Those plans are well done and skillful, making it look easy. There is a lot involved to get what they describe. Two thousand dollars is a great deal for that work. It is a min. five thousand dollar job. And what is there so far is much more than four hour drafting job.
We will be architects when we have respect for our own services. I've found troublesome an architecture student is going as far as discrediting an architect's experienced work.

Took Wright like what, a few hours to draw up Fallingwater (if I have my legends right)? So bam, here's your $400 Mr. Architect, thank you very much.

Yea, I side with everyone saying 2k sounds good.

Jack, poop. Sherman Antitrust applies even when you're not a member of a professional organization. Just because this is an internet forum doesn't mean you can disclose prices. While you're right, probably no one will care, I would not take it that lightly.

Back to original discussion: why do people think all architects do is quickly draft up some plans? And, even if that was what we did, why does everyone think that that's cheap?

I'm was a surprised and shocked to see one of our clients spent more on furniture than on our services for the same project. Then I thought about it and though - was I really surprised?

Or get a new Maserati and put it in the garage that I designed! Should we really start comparing it like that?

Come off it, morality.

Anyways, thanks for everyone's input - your responses to my inquiry really taught me a lot about professional practice.

I'm not gonna visit you in jail

Why do you design garages?

Usually comes part of the house.

just checking

and jail for what exactly?

that was a joke ;)

morality said this: Those plans are well done and skillful, making it look easy.

Which is exactly the point of the zen story I was looking for, but couldn't find, so I'll paraphrase it myself:

A Westerner went to a master calligrapher and asked the master to write the name of his family. The master accepted the payment and said "Come back in a year." The Westerner came back at the appointed time, and the master said again "Come back in a year." This went on for years, until finally on the tenth year the Westerner, when being asked to come back in a year again, lost his temper and yelled "I've been waiting for ten years and I'm tired of it! I demand my family's name be written for me now!"

The master calmly took out a sheet of paper and brush and wrote the man's name in one perfect flourish. The Westerner, shocked and recognizing the masterpiece he now held in his hands, asked "But that was so easy! What have you been doing for the last ten years?!"

To which the master stood and opened the door behind his desk, revealing a huge room full of thousands of cast off papers with the Westerner's name on them. "Practicing" he said.

Stupid westerners, always messing things up, what with their bandanas and six shooters and horses.... wait... did I miss something?

That was good!

haha, misunderstanding. i didn't realize someone had the user name morality.