I went in for a follow up "interview" today with a local firm. It sounds like it could be temp to hire. They are involved in a lot of projects that could be subject to the Obama stimulus plan (schools, local govt. cop stations etc). They told me there are 2 other people they are looking at for the position (which kinda surprised me in my small town). They said the one guy has more experience, the one has less. They asked how much I want as far as payment. Now, I was going to say $16/hr (around $35,000/year, which seems right for my experience and locale). My dad told me to say $20. Sounded high to me, but I have no idea, so I went with it. They said "That's not what we were thinking since we'd have to help you a lot with CDs and such." Which is true as I didn't do anything but schematic/design development while in Japan. We had a local firm working on our Korean projects that specified everything. Did I ask too much and shoot myself out of the job, or do you think that if they want me they will give me an offer? On another note, why do firms ask if they have a price point in mind?
The way you describe their reaction, you did not shoot yourself in the foot.
You didn't demand sixteen, you proposed it. And they didn't look agape when you said it, only to laugh hysterically afterward. Instead, they said "That's not what we were thinking."
Don't obsess over this. You gave it your best shot. There are others in the running (maybe), and you have no control over their decision. Go have a beer and relax.
my first job out of undergrad i made $35K - a few weeks later this kid who loved to talk came in and was talking about his negotiation skills. he went in there and said he wouldn't take a penny over $30k...they agreed. that's why they ask.
im not all that familiar with your resume hasselhoff, but i don't think you shot yourself in the foot. i know everyone wants a job at this point, but $16/hr is probably selling yourself short. what you asked for isn't outrageous so if it doesn't work out it's probably for the best...i know that's tough to swallow when you're looking for a job in this economy.
Sorry for the confusion. I was going to say $16, but under my dad's advice, I said $20 (which would be like $41,000, normal in a bigger city). One thing is I'm living at home, so I have no expenses (other than loans and I'll need wheelz).
Yes but the AIA salary report says our average income is up 30% over the last decade. I still cant find these benefactors. My guess is the owners' income is/ was up 30%. The interns at, or who were at, my firm until recently were making about the same as interns in 2000. Young licensed architects actually the same or less.
Architects saw a 30 percent increase in salary between 2002 and 2008 which is twice the average workforce for the same period and. I think, well beyond the inflation rate for most areas.
35k would be awful in a lot of places but not bad in others. It's all about location.
If they want you they will make a counter offer. You price couldn't be that far off.
Another reason they ask is because, believe it or not, a lot of firms don't really have their pulse on the current going salaries either. So they ask to find out what the range is.
Don't worry about it. If they really want to hire you, they would say"Well, kid, you got negotiation skills, didn't you?" And they would still hire you at a rate both parties feel acceptable. If they don't want to hire you, they can find thousands of reasons.
And $20 per hour is not too much for an entry level guy, as I know.
You did the right thing. Firms don't hire just based on your salary salary requests. If they liked you best and thought you'd be the best fit, they'd call you back and negotiate a salary.
If another firm asks, listen to your dad again and say $20. But this time, say it's negotiable.
"He who talks money first always looses."
I read this somewhere and I think its true. NEVER be the the first person to put a compensation number on the table. Let the employer do it. My most recent employment offer was 15K over what I would have been willing to take because I dodged the "What are your salary expectations?" question.
I find it interesting that so many people approach compensation, and compensation discussions, as a game. And, so many feel there are "rules" that will give you a leg-up in that game.
Compensation is among the most important aspects of your relationship with a firm. Some give-and-take about compensation is an important part of the process in joining a new firm.
You ought to know what you are able to do for a firm; you ought to find out what those services are worth in the marketplace ("really" ... not "theoretically") and you ought to be able to have a grownup conversation with the firm about these matters. It's not about arm-wrestling or 'getting over on the other party' -- it's about having a professional discussion about a topic of mutual interest.
I can tell you from long experience that how you start with a firm is just a speck on the overall relationship you will have with that firm. If you come in too high -- or too low -- that's going to become apparent to everybody fairly quickly. If you can't earn what you're being paid, then you'll be in trouble fairly quickly and either your job will be in jeapordy (especially in this economy) or your advancement will be stymied. If you're doing a great job, then the firm should recognize that fact and be motivated to keep you happy.
At the end of the day, both the firm and the individual need to feel comfortable with the compensation aspect of the relationship. If you're not able to make your case for what you're worth in a factual, professional manner, then it really doesn't matter "who goes first".
The same holds for the firm. If they can't provide you with a rationale for why the job is worth what they're offering, then they're just waiving their arms in the air.
I'm an advocate for having adult conversations on these subjects and REALLY listening to what the other party has to say on the matter.
The "He who talks money first always loses" theory is true, but there's a way around it - Benefits.
I was given a salary offer that was in the ballpark, but after looking at it from a total compensation standpoint, I was being offered a little less PTO, 401K match, and health insurance costs than my previous employer, so I asked them to up their offer a bit.
Want to second dml955i.
My wife gets typically 4 weeks off as vacation so I usually have asked for more vacation over salary. Some firms have balked, while to others its a non issue when paired with a reduced salary.
And when reduced hours or salary cuts have come due to downturns the vacation time was never a target.
Its been great for my family, non taxable, and a real lifestyle bonus.
Yes, you should always consider the value of the benefits being offered in conjunction w/ salary. A stingy benefits package can definitely lower the value of a high salary. The amount of overtime expected (although really hard to gage before you start a job) should be a factor too. A big salary is not so good if you have to work late every day.
I must disagree with the some of Stone's arguments above. I think firms make compensation offers based on what they are willing and able to pay, and an offer they make you is probably in line with what others in the firm make. I'm not suggesting anyone "get one over" by pricing themselves beyond what they are capable of delivering on in terms of productivity and value to the company.
I have always been asked about my salary expectations when I was interviewed, and at my current position I always ask when I interview people - in the last 10 years or so I have only written off 2 people who stated such an outrageous salary demand that it was a clue into their personality - we always have a salary "range" in mind based upon the resume before the interview but we like to listen to potential employee's responses - I doubt you shot yourself in the foot - one other small bit of advice - unless your dad is an architect or business consultant who would have local architectural scene insight, I would ask your friends and use online salary information to guide your response next time. good luck.
I do a lot of interviewing - once the conversations have successfully navigated through certain important milestones, I often, but not always, will ask candidates if they'd care to share their compensation expectations. Some do; some don't.
Here's why I ask - it has nothing to do with taking advantage of the candidate. I ask because I genuinely want to know a) how the candidate values his/her own services; and b) I don't really want to issue an offer that's not informed by at least some basic idea of how the candidate values those services. The last thing I want to do is insult a candidate by issuing a low-ball offer.
There have been some instances when the candidate's sense of value was so far from my own that I never proceeded to the offer stage. There also have been other instances where I knew the candidate didn't understand the market for labor and was asking for a wage well below the market. (In those instances, if I decide to offer the candidate the job, I offer the fair wage -- not the wage the candidate mentioned.) However, most of the time my thinking and the candidate's thinking are reasonably close together.
I agree with stone's point of view ... in the end, I want to feel good about the relationship I'm establishing with new hires ... I also want the candidate to feel the same way. If it's not fair to both parties from the beginning, the relationship won't last for long.
I also will say this -- "who goes first" never, ever influences what I'm prepared to offer a candidate -- the offer always reflects the value we see in the individual, the individual's behavior during the interview(s), what we see in the porfolio, and what we learn from reference checks. This is not a game boys and girls -- this is real life.
Whenever asked, always turn it back on the potential employer, With a statement like:
"all offices are structured differently with pay vs. billing rates, salary vs. hourly, benefit packages, etc. I would need to know more about your office before I could just throw out a number"
Most likely they will shoot back with either
A."well, with your experience we typically pay people in the ____ p/h range"
B."I'll need to talk more with the other partner/HR/whatever to determine a rate and package and get back to you....what were you making in your last place?"
If its B, they are fishing. It could be they are insecure in what they are able to offer and need reassurance. Or, they may be trying to find out what other firms in the area are paying people so they can construct an offer to someone else. Or, they don't really know where you would "fit in" on a project or several other things. You have no way of knowing.
The person doing the interview knows what position they are hiring for and what billing rate you would fall under and consequently what they can offer before coming to the meeting table.
If you have balls, just ask them "what would I be billed out at?" and then say "well, I'll take no more than 1/3 of that rate"
bluegoose's take sounds more like what i would do too. it is not a game of getya, and most offices are professional enough to know what they want to pay and what staff are worth.
potential employees who come in with odd lines like what cadcroupier suggest would read to me as disingenuous, not smart. i don't want a playah in my office. i deal enough with guys like that in real estate business that i just would be turned off. maybe some offices think that is kool, but it just sounds like a cover-up for ignorance. i always wonder if theses guys actually are self-deluded enough to believe they are fooling anyone.
so. be honest. start from there.
i wouldn't worry hasselhoff, if they want you they will make an offer.
There is no mystery here, architectural fees don't fall from the sky, and salaries are directly attributed to billing rates.
how many architects are on here whining about low wages, at the same time they want to beat around the bush everytime MONEY is the subject?
jump and goose want to talk about money in terms of design. They want to talk about conversations navigating down an earnest path of valuation. An idealized vision we should all be striving toward to reach the promise land of gameless relationship building. They want you to think there is a complex science to it all. Sure there is some chemistry that needs to be there, but really it boils down to billing rates and productivity.
As much as I wish it were different, architecture is as much a business as any other. The sooner you become comfortable talking about money in direct terms, not abstracts, the better off you will be.
i am not suggesting beating around the bush. i got the impression that is what you were suggesting, cadcroupier. maybe we are on same page after all. i deal with real estate most days here in tokyo. my business partner is a developer as well as a licensed architect, so it is regular for us to wade through properties deal with brokers, investors, banks, etc. money talk is not a problem.
lots of people in the real estate business throw up a lot of smoke. some are really good at it, but most are not and we often get frustrated with people who are clearly playing games. the people we work with most are the ones who are pretty honest and straight with us. we try to be the same. so if i had to deal with an architect who came at me with "billing rates are different...", i would just be annoyed. i would much prefer an offer, to which i could make a counter-offer, if i thought it was necessary. i am also quite happy to tell any applicant what we thought they were worth and discuss from there.
negotiation is cool. but bullshit from my staff i just don't need. honesty is by far the best negotiation tool, from my perspective...
The answer is no, my foot is not shot. I got called back and they offered me a job for 2 months or so with the possibility to hire if the work keeps coming in. I'll be working on some project rehab in the near by city (one of the nation's most dangerous and a fixture of Monopoly boards). So I will get some much needed experience in CDs and specs. I start tomorrow.
Did I shoot myself in the foot?
I went in for a follow up "interview" today with a local firm. It sounds like it could be temp to hire. They are involved in a lot of projects that could be subject to the Obama stimulus plan (schools, local govt. cop stations etc). They told me there are 2 other people they are looking at for the position (which kinda surprised me in my small town). They said the one guy has more experience, the one has less. They asked how much I want as far as payment. Now, I was going to say $16/hr (around $35,000/year, which seems right for my experience and locale). My dad told me to say $20. Sounded high to me, but I have no idea, so I went with it. They said "That's not what we were thinking since we'd have to help you a lot with CDs and such." Which is true as I didn't do anything but schematic/design development while in Japan. We had a local firm working on our Korean projects that specified everything. Did I ask too much and shoot myself out of the job, or do you think that if they want me they will give me an offer? On another note, why do firms ask if they have a price point in mind?
The way you describe their reaction, you did not shoot yourself in the foot.
You didn't demand sixteen, you proposed it. And they didn't look agape when you said it, only to laugh hysterically afterward. Instead, they said "That's not what we were thinking."
Don't obsess over this. You gave it your best shot. There are others in the running (maybe), and you have no control over their decision. Go have a beer and relax.
And good luck.
my first job out of undergrad i made $35K - a few weeks later this kid who loved to talk came in and was talking about his negotiation skills. he went in there and said he wouldn't take a penny over $30k...they agreed. that's why they ask.
im not all that familiar with your resume hasselhoff, but i don't think you shot yourself in the foot. i know everyone wants a job at this point, but $16/hr is probably selling yourself short. what you asked for isn't outrageous so if it doesn't work out it's probably for the best...i know that's tough to swallow when you're looking for a job in this economy.
wow 35k was my starting salary 10 yrs ago.
Amazing how architecture is the only industry not affected by inflation.
"My dad told me to say $20. Sounded high to me, but I have no idea, SO I WENT WITH IT."
...didn't he ask for $20/hr?
Sorry for the confusion. I was going to say $16, but under my dad's advice, I said $20 (which would be like $41,000, normal in a bigger city). One thing is I'm living at home, so I have no expenses (other than loans and I'll need wheelz).
Yes but the AIA salary report says our average income is up 30% over the last decade. I still cant find these benefactors. My guess is the owners' income is/ was up 30%. The interns at, or who were at, my firm until recently were making about the same as interns in 2000. Young licensed architects actually the same or less.
Architects saw a 30 percent increase in salary between 2002 and 2008 which is twice the average workforce for the same period and. I think, well beyond the inflation rate for most areas.
35k would be awful in a lot of places but not bad in others. It's all about location.
If they want you they will make a counter offer. You price couldn't be that far off.
Another reason they ask is because, believe it or not, a lot of firms don't really have their pulse on the current going salaries either. So they ask to find out what the range is.
Good luck!
Don't worry about it. If they really want to hire you, they would say"Well, kid, you got negotiation skills, didn't you?" And they would still hire you at a rate both parties feel acceptable. If they don't want to hire you, they can find thousands of reasons.
And $20 per hour is not too much for an entry level guy, as I know.
take what you can get..... not like architecture pays much anyways
Hasselhoff,
You did the right thing. Firms don't hire just based on your salary salary requests. If they liked you best and thought you'd be the best fit, they'd call you back and negotiate a salary.
If another firm asks, listen to your dad again and say $20. But this time, say it's negotiable.
Good luck.
"He who talks money first always looses."
I read this somewhere and I think its true. NEVER be the the first person to put a compensation number on the table. Let the employer do it. My most recent employment offer was 15K over what I would have been willing to take because I dodged the "What are your salary expectations?" question.
I find it interesting that so many people approach compensation, and compensation discussions, as a game. And, so many feel there are "rules" that will give you a leg-up in that game.
Compensation is among the most important aspects of your relationship with a firm. Some give-and-take about compensation is an important part of the process in joining a new firm.
You ought to know what you are able to do for a firm; you ought to find out what those services are worth in the marketplace ("really" ... not "theoretically") and you ought to be able to have a grownup conversation with the firm about these matters. It's not about arm-wrestling or 'getting over on the other party' -- it's about having a professional discussion about a topic of mutual interest.
I can tell you from long experience that how you start with a firm is just a speck on the overall relationship you will have with that firm. If you come in too high -- or too low -- that's going to become apparent to everybody fairly quickly. If you can't earn what you're being paid, then you'll be in trouble fairly quickly and either your job will be in jeapordy (especially in this economy) or your advancement will be stymied. If you're doing a great job, then the firm should recognize that fact and be motivated to keep you happy.
At the end of the day, both the firm and the individual need to feel comfortable with the compensation aspect of the relationship. If you're not able to make your case for what you're worth in a factual, professional manner, then it really doesn't matter "who goes first".
The same holds for the firm. If they can't provide you with a rationale for why the job is worth what they're offering, then they're just waiving their arms in the air.
I'm an advocate for having adult conversations on these subjects and REALLY listening to what the other party has to say on the matter.
The "He who talks money first always loses" theory is true, but there's a way around it - Benefits.
I was given a salary offer that was in the ballpark, but after looking at it from a total compensation standpoint, I was being offered a little less PTO, 401K match, and health insurance costs than my previous employer, so I asked them to up their offer a bit.
Want to second dml955i.
My wife gets typically 4 weeks off as vacation so I usually have asked for more vacation over salary. Some firms have balked, while to others its a non issue when paired with a reduced salary.
And when reduced hours or salary cuts have come due to downturns the vacation time was never a target.
Its been great for my family, non taxable, and a real lifestyle bonus.
Yes, you should always consider the value of the benefits being offered in conjunction w/ salary. A stingy benefits package can definitely lower the value of a high salary. The amount of overtime expected (although really hard to gage before you start a job) should be a factor too. A big salary is not so good if you have to work late every day.
I must disagree with the some of Stone's arguments above. I think firms make compensation offers based on what they are willing and able to pay, and an offer they make you is probably in line with what others in the firm make. I'm not suggesting anyone "get one over" by pricing themselves beyond what they are capable of delivering on in terms of productivity and value to the company.
I have always been asked about my salary expectations when I was interviewed, and at my current position I always ask when I interview people - in the last 10 years or so I have only written off 2 people who stated such an outrageous salary demand that it was a clue into their personality - we always have a salary "range" in mind based upon the resume before the interview but we like to listen to potential employee's responses - I doubt you shot yourself in the foot - one other small bit of advice - unless your dad is an architect or business consultant who would have local architectural scene insight, I would ask your friends and use online salary information to guide your response next time. good luck.
I do a lot of interviewing - once the conversations have successfully navigated through certain important milestones, I often, but not always, will ask candidates if they'd care to share their compensation expectations. Some do; some don't.
Here's why I ask - it has nothing to do with taking advantage of the candidate. I ask because I genuinely want to know a) how the candidate values his/her own services; and b) I don't really want to issue an offer that's not informed by at least some basic idea of how the candidate values those services. The last thing I want to do is insult a candidate by issuing a low-ball offer.
There have been some instances when the candidate's sense of value was so far from my own that I never proceeded to the offer stage. There also have been other instances where I knew the candidate didn't understand the market for labor and was asking for a wage well below the market. (In those instances, if I decide to offer the candidate the job, I offer the fair wage -- not the wage the candidate mentioned.) However, most of the time my thinking and the candidate's thinking are reasonably close together.
I agree with stone's point of view ... in the end, I want to feel good about the relationship I'm establishing with new hires ... I also want the candidate to feel the same way. If it's not fair to both parties from the beginning, the relationship won't last for long.
I also will say this -- "who goes first" never, ever influences what I'm prepared to offer a candidate -- the offer always reflects the value we see in the individual, the individual's behavior during the interview(s), what we see in the porfolio, and what we learn from reference checks. This is not a game boys and girls -- this is real life.
Whenever asked, always turn it back on the potential employer, With a statement like:
"all offices are structured differently with pay vs. billing rates, salary vs. hourly, benefit packages, etc. I would need to know more about your office before I could just throw out a number"
Most likely they will shoot back with either
A."well, with your experience we typically pay people in the ____ p/h range"
B."I'll need to talk more with the other partner/HR/whatever to determine a rate and package and get back to you....what were you making in your last place?"
If its B, they are fishing. It could be they are insecure in what they are able to offer and need reassurance. Or, they may be trying to find out what other firms in the area are paying people so they can construct an offer to someone else. Or, they don't really know where you would "fit in" on a project or several other things. You have no way of knowing.
The person doing the interview knows what position they are hiring for and what billing rate you would fall under and consequently what they can offer before coming to the meeting table.
If you have balls, just ask them "what would I be billed out at?" and then say "well, I'll take no more than 1/3 of that rate"
bluegoose's take sounds more like what i would do too. it is not a game of getya, and most offices are professional enough to know what they want to pay and what staff are worth.
potential employees who come in with odd lines like what cadcroupier suggest would read to me as disingenuous, not smart. i don't want a playah in my office. i deal enough with guys like that in real estate business that i just would be turned off. maybe some offices think that is kool, but it just sounds like a cover-up for ignorance. i always wonder if theses guys actually are self-deluded enough to believe they are fooling anyone.
so. be honest. start from there.
i wouldn't worry hasselhoff, if they want you they will make an offer.
There is no mystery here, architectural fees don't fall from the sky, and salaries are directly attributed to billing rates.
how many architects are on here whining about low wages, at the same time they want to beat around the bush everytime MONEY is the subject?
jump and goose want to talk about money in terms of design. They want to talk about conversations navigating down an earnest path of valuation. An idealized vision we should all be striving toward to reach the promise land of gameless relationship building. They want you to think there is a complex science to it all. Sure there is some chemistry that needs to be there, but really it boils down to billing rates and productivity.
As much as I wish it were different, architecture is as much a business as any other. The sooner you become comfortable talking about money in direct terms, not abstracts, the better off you will be.
i am not suggesting beating around the bush. i got the impression that is what you were suggesting, cadcroupier. maybe we are on same page after all. i deal with real estate most days here in tokyo. my business partner is a developer as well as a licensed architect, so it is regular for us to wade through properties deal with brokers, investors, banks, etc. money talk is not a problem.
lots of people in the real estate business throw up a lot of smoke. some are really good at it, but most are not and we often get frustrated with people who are clearly playing games. the people we work with most are the ones who are pretty honest and straight with us. we try to be the same. so if i had to deal with an architect who came at me with "billing rates are different...", i would just be annoyed. i would much prefer an offer, to which i could make a counter-offer, if i thought it was necessary. i am also quite happy to tell any applicant what we thought they were worth and discuss from there.
negotiation is cool. but bullshit from my staff i just don't need. honesty is by far the best negotiation tool, from my perspective...
maybe i am naive, but it works so far.
The answer is no, my foot is not shot. I got called back and they offered me a job for 2 months or so with the possibility to hire if the work keeps coming in. I'll be working on some project rehab in the near by city (one of the nation's most dangerous and a fixture of Monopoly boards). So I will get some much needed experience in CDs and specs. I start tomorrow.
congrats hassel!
awesome...good for you!
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