I was just terminated from an architecture firm that I have been working for over the past 2 1/2 months. Other than this job, I have no previous architecture experience other than school. Of course, I have had other jobs during my life, but this was my first architecture job out of school.
Before heading to this firm, I applied with several other firms. There were two firms that I interviewed with that told me to contact them should my current job not work out. The question is what do I say to the other firms when they ask me why I left? I know I learned a lot in my present job and want to use the experience.
I was the first intern that my firm had ever hired directly out of college. They knew going into it that I had no firm experience (the first firm I worked for really did not count, because I was only doing office work). At my current firm, I worked under six different architects and began using architectural desktop the day I started, which I had never worked with before. They gave me a book, an office cad binder, then handed me markups. I was on salary and I usually got to work before the other interns and was usually the last to leave the office. I would often put in more time and then just not bill it, because I felt it was unfair to the client and the firm because I had a lot to learn. I knew after 2 weeks of being there that I did not have the knowledge that they expected, after all, I was fresh out of school, and none of the other interns had been. I always tried to keep a smile on my face, no matter the situation, and I always stopped to say hello to each person in the firm.
The firms’ explanation for terminating me was that I did not have enough structural knowledge or architectural desktop knowledge and that they did not have the time to train me. They offered me a 2 1/2 week severance package and sent me on my way. To be honest, I think that a combination of my salary and unrealistic expectations were what sent me on my way. I was overly lucky in that they offered me 44,000 a year starting out. However, because I did not have experience using architectural desktop, and had no previous office experience, I think they realized they could not afford me.
So when it comes down to it, I can see that I need more structural experience, however I am a hands on learner and was hoping to learn what I didn’t pick up in school in an office. I feel like if I go back and take more classes in structure that I will not learn anything. In addition, it is currently December and not the best time to find a construction job.
I know I want to stick to architecture because I love it and I am determined to not let this get me down. The question is, where do I go from here? Any advice would be appreciated. Also, if I could be so blunt, please keep the critique a little on the soft side.
"The firms’ explanation for terminating me was that I did not have enough structural knowledge or architectural desktop knowledge and that they did not have the time to train me."
That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard.... do they really expect you to know that straight out of school? Those sound like nieve expectations to me and a very lazy and dissapointing attitude towards employee development. Unless you embellished you Architectural Desktop abilities, they should either have known what they're getting into or at the very least know that interns fresh out of school might not know ADT (honestly how many do).
I'd try those other two firms and just tell them what happened, tell them the firms explanation. It doesn't sound like anything to be ashamed of.
Sounds like your job was with a badly-managed firm, anyway. Hopefully your next gig will be much better, and you'll look upon losing this job as one of the best things that happened to your career.
Arch 6, sounds like an easy question to me. You say that 2 other firms asked you to call them if your job didn't work out. Well call them. Tell the truth on why you were let go, you did nothing wrong. You told them you had no experience, so it was wrong of them to hire you then not train you.
In the meantime, try your best to learn CAD on your own. Read everything you can about the real practice of architecture, not just theoretical design. Find out how buildings are built. You are not expected to be a structural enginner, just be able to read structural drawings. Find out all you can about all building systems.
Your job expected too much from a recent grad without giving them proper training. If you clearly vocalized your lack of experience and lack of Architectural Desktop knowledge, you didn't mislead them and you are not at fault.
Take the weekend off and call the two other firms on Monday. If they asked what happened, you should remain tactful, but honest. You may want to describe that, looking back, it was probably for the best because the firm wasn't capable of providing the hands-on experience that someone with your skillset needs and requires to effectively prosper in his/her career path.
You seem to have a strong work ethic and a good head on your shoulders. Don't let this discourage you from a bright future ahead.
Tell them the previous situation was not as expected, and you are looking to change gears, and clarify to them that you are looking to re-inforce your educational skills and accomplishments with real-world experience and practice.
you were expected to design the structures? no engineers in office or as consultants? is that normal where you are?
i was started on structures, but just drafting plans and details, as assistant to engineer-architect (where i live most architects do their own engineering). it was part of the education program my office had. start with structures and basic archi-stuff (door schedules, interior elevations, code checks...) then move on from there...very much a learning by doing environment...and i made a LOT of mistakes.
but they expected that.
not expecting that is odd.
anyway, the whole deal sounds weird to me. better to be done with it.
it's a little hard to figure out what was really going on in your situation; either the firm was really poorly run as mentioned above, or the other possibility, and you may not want to hear this, is that your cad skills are really bad. lack of "structural knowledge" makes no sense whatsoever. are you sure that's what they said?
i have seen interns whose cad skills were so bad, it set project schedules back. it's rare that this happens and most firms will factor in a learning curve for new interns when creating project schedules, but if someone is just not getting it after a few months and drafting really inaccurately, it can be a nightmare for project. i'd look honestly at your cad skills. were you layed off for that reason? if so, i'd sit down with a cad book and start practicing. real office is experience is the best way to learn, but before that, it might be a good idea to really know the basics.
actually your in good shape - 2.5 months is nothing. Having any parametric modeling software experiance is great for your resume to. 44k? First year out of school? Dam - what state you in?
It's always a bummer when things work out like that, but it sounds like the firm you were with was a very poorly managed one. They should never expect anyone right out of school to know all of that stuff and usually good firms give their new employees about a year to fully understand their capabilities. Plus, good firms will also have someone train you for about a week or so on how to use their particular software.
There are plenty of jobs out there right now so you shouldn't have any problems bouncing right back and getting a good job offer. And I'm not sure where you live but don't think that you need to accept a salary cut either. Keep your eyes open for a firm in which your superiors are also good educators who are eager to educate you as you develop your professional career. I had a hard time deciding what firm to work for and I chose the one in which the principles and associates straight up said that they want to educate me and guide me every step of the way to be a good architect. It's been very good so far.
I know I want to stick to architecture because I love it and I am determined to not let this get me down.
arch6, this sentence worries me the most. Please do maintain your determination not to be too down about this. It sucks, of course, but it sounds to me like you are being very honest, both with yourself and with your former employers. Be proud of yourself for that, and wherever you end up next continue to be eager, optimistic, smiling, etc. Good employers will appreciate an enthusiastic, easy-to-get-along-with employee.
Speaking of which, it sounds like your previous employers were *not* the best employers, as said above, they sound somewhat mismanaged. In my experience, starting straight out of school at $44k *is* high. I don't want you to starve, but that number might be one that a future employer would balk at. Just keep that in mind.
I also agree with n_. Call the other firms Monday and see what they might have to offer. Good luck and I'm sure it will all eventually work out - chalk this up to one of many job experiences you will have in this career.
I think that depending on where you truly fall on the skill-spectrum (hard to evaluate thru archinect) that you should probably prepare yourself to accept your next job at a reduced salary from where you came. I would love for a green intern, one requiring a substantial amount of office training, to be paid 44k, but I doubt it.
Sounds like they offered you a starting salary for a job that you may not have been qualified for...nothing for you to feel bad about, it sounds like you did your best to meet the challenge but with little to no training by the firm I think they set you up to fail. Best of luck to you, go after those two other firms!
a) when firms pay "above market" wages, there's usually a reason -- meaning they're probably not great places to work and the firm is forced to pay above scale simply to attract bodies; and
b) when firms pay high wages, they attach to that condition very high expectations for performance.
While I acknowledge that everybody wants to receive the highest possible wages, these two background conditions are important to keep in mind whenever somebody offers you compensation that seems "too good to be true".
Not sure where you're located, but in this market you're likely to find new work before you've used up your severance pay.
In answer to some of your questions, I live in northern California, outside of the bay area. Where I live, the architects do you use engineers, however the people in our firm are the ones to pick up the redlines and do the drafting after the engineer sees the plans, which as I understand, is the way it works in a lot of places. However, my firm prides itself on creating buildings that are interesting both structurally and architecturally, and want minimal redlines from the engineer.
In regards to my firms’ expectations, well the three other interns in the office are all guys, and all three of them worked at engineers offices before they started working at my firm. In addition, they have all done construction before. In order to combat any criticism from the architects I work for, I would go visit our jobsites on my own time, in order to understand structure better. When it comes to being held to the same bar as another associate, I believe that the best thing to do is be thankful that you are being pushed, suck it up, and try harder.
In regards to my AutoCAD skills, well as we all know, ADT is much different from AutoCAD. In the time that I worked for my firm, I worked on projects that were created in 3.0, AutoCAD 2007, and then later 2008, therefore was forced to transition between all three, while also learning the program. When it came to basic redlines, I received many compliments, and was told that I was fast. However, it was creating spaces, attaching boundaries, and creating 3D sections where I was a little slow. I did use the office ADT 2008 book to practice exercises before and after work, or on my lunch break.
4 weeks ago, a new project manager was hired on, who was well versed in 3D ADT 2008. They paired us together and he helped train me. His way of training me was giving me 20-minute tasks, and then checking on me. Even though I knew how to do some of the tasks he asked me, if I did not do things the way he did them, they were wrong. The office believed that this person’s methods and way of doing things would help make all firm projects 3D, and that the firm would be better off. Before working for our firm, he had his own firm, with an assistant under him, whom he had trained over the past 2 years that knew 3D ADT well. Two weeks ago, my firm interviewed her. I believe that because we are a small firm and they are trying to transition to more 3d models, they hired his old assistant to take my spot. All is fair in the game of business and architecture!
The real question is what do I say to future employers? I have no examples of the work that I did with my firm. While I had worked there, I helped put a small remodel through the building process, along with two other new residences. I worked on every sheet in the construction documents, and did the corrections of redlines for a cantilevered bridge, that the engineering firm had designed in the remodel I helped put through. I live in a small town, do you think it is safe to start applying for the other firms in town, or do you think I should call it a day, and try to find a job elsewhere? In addition, will my firm get mad if I file for unemployment while I am looking for a new job?
I walked into a job out of school but a fair bit of knowledge from summer work and asked for a pretty high wage but I said look. Start me at a lower wage for the first three months as trial period, if I didn't meet their expectations then I was gone, or continue to work at the starting rate or after the three months I got the bonus pay rate and I also got the difference paid out to me from the past three months. Wha t it shows is confidence in your skill set, gives the employer a trial period to judge you ( and you had better bust your ass ) and doesn't make the employer feel he's getting ripped off.
Try it out, years later I still hire everyone in my office the same way. Its a bit of a weasle clause but it is ultimately fair for all parties.
Also, thank you for the constructive criticism. I do plan on working on my cad skills in the mean time, and will not find it unrealistic if the next firm pays less starting out.
I am well versed in Illustrator and Photoshop, and have a little experience in 3D studio max and ArchiCAD from doing class projects with them. What computer skills should I focus on brushing up while I am looking for employment? Does any one know of any cheap 4 day classes for Revit training around the Sacramento area?
Actually I wouldn't really worry about any of that stuff.
Just go to a firm that is willing to educate you on how to be a good architect. I don't know if anyone else got this, but by reading your post, I get the feeling that you sound completely defeated and apologetic. I understand you were in an unfortunate situation, but just swallow it, pull it together, and move right along. Obviously it wasn't a good fit for you, so you must understand that there are offices out there that are much closer to what you're looking for.
I talked with an advisor today, and he also talked about a '3 month trial period' where you take a lower starting salary, but have an immediate review after the three month period. And you have to bust your ass to prove you are worth the increase in salary.
I'm going for a job next week, and thats what i'll be doing. Plus try and wheel-n-deal with them, i'm going to introduce tuition reimbursement and see if they go for that (its a tax writeoff for them anyway)
Cheer up ! If your CAD skills are really bad, there are two ways to approach it. Either brush up on your skills or find a job that does not require CAD --e.g building foam models for starchitects, or building digital models with BIM, and of course if you are up for it, project management ! btw, I think the latter path is a more enjoyable and rewarding path to becoming licensed..
never feel guilty about collecting unemployment, this is a benift employers are required to pay into for exactly this type of situation, that's why it's called insurance...
arch6..if this makes you feel any better i was let go last week based on the same explanation your office gave you. These people expected me to go straight into CDs and be able to know what i was doing. not to mention they are shifting from CAD to Revit which i thought was cool and actually got to pick up a lot of Revit training. They basically did not have the time to teach. I asked them specifically if there was a task or something I didnt perform and they said no..their response " you ask a lot of questions and we feel like you'll fit well in a smaller office". Arch6 keep your head up..its not just you. I lasted 5 months..my work experience is 5 more months stronger now!
2.5 months is no time at all in the "real world". don't even put it on your resume and you won't ever have to explain it. it sounds like there was a real mismatch in expectations and it happens. nothing to get down about...call up those other firms and this time around, i bet you'll ask some more questions about what it is you'll actually be doing.
: While "tuition reimbursement" may be a legitimate business expense and therefore deductible, it still costs the firm cold, hard cash --- the flaw in your logic is assuming that design firms pay taxes --- most don't, choosing instead to bonus out to staff and owners each year enough remaining cash to break-even for tax purposes.
so, while they could pay you, say, $5,000 in tuition reimbursement, it's not going to do anything much for them except lower the amount of year-end bonuses available for the guys sitting around you in the studio.
for the vast majority of firms, your idea won't make much sense at all. firms simply are not in the business of paying for your primary education.
I agree with ochona -- provided you can put together a decent answer if they ask you what you've been doing since graduation (which I tend to do if a resume shows a significant gap in time) there's really not much need to list such a short stint on your resume. no need to wave a flag in anybody's face.
44K out of school is something i still can't get over with or without experience, but that seems to be what I hear everywhere these days.
i hope you find a job that gives you what your looking for. i wish i could see more people willing to put in extra time to learn the things necessary to be effective.
44k out of college is the going rate these days. Among my colleages who I graduated with, I heard offers that were as high as 55k.
In a conversation with my boss the other day (who has around 35 years of experience), he was telling us how these days intern level architects are getting payed respectable salaries that are comparible to what starting engineers make.
- careful there, pal. starting salaries vary widely by location, degree, portfolio and amout of prior work experience - generalizations like the one you made are neither helpful nor accurate.
Relax, Quizical. I've stated numerous times in other threads that is's all about location. The ones I'm refering to are in big expensive cities like Washington, New York, Philadelphia where 44k out of college is appropriate.
However it's not a stretch to say that such a salary cannot be expected in smaller towns like Raleigh-Durham, Virginia Beach, Asheville, NC, and Columbus.
The 55k individual had about 5 years of experience doing pretty solid work before grad school. That said anything under 35k is garbage even in a smaller city.
I was making 35-40 with solely an Assoc Degree and Autocad Certificate.
Quizz: I didnt say they were going to 'go for' the tuition reimbursement, its just another item to bring to the table. You would be surprised at what firms are willing work with. It also benefits me as an upcoming interview I have is with the elusive 'D' word...
I hedged my degree by working construction jobs. I did labor, landscaping, framing, and trim jobs over the course of a couple years. I also did a stint in a Corprorate CM office doing pm work. In the meantime at night, I took a few extra classes , like REVIT and a 3d CAD class.
I know that when you get out of school you want to do what you were trained for, but sometimes balancing your academia with other industries and supplemental tools empowers you more that straight drafting.
Of course I just work for myself..
Anyway, good luck arch6, this is only the beginning.
arch6, you sound like you are a really put-together person. I applaud you for taking this in stride and for viewing the situation with so much perspective and objectivity. I sympathize totally with your situation, because you're right, what do you tell potential employers?
What I think is sad is that it sounds like laziness on the part of the firm. I am finding that it's really difficult to find people who are hard workers and willing to learn new things, so it is certainly their loss that they weren't interested in being more patient with you. If I were in your place, I think I would probably be honest in future interviews. You can't start off on the wrong foot at your new job.....it will be hard, it's certainly not fun admitting to someone that you were let go, but you seem eloquent and humble enough to approach the situation appropriately. Just make sure that anyone interviewing you understands that you are already well versed in other programs, and although you are inexperienced, you are an earnest learner. We all have to start off somewhere, right? Good luck!
You mention the desire to learn more CAD skills... While this is admirable, your time might be better spent honing your design skills by entering some competitions or simply doing a few small hypothetical projects on your own. This could potentially make your portfolio really stand out from others at your experience level. While it's important to know the production end of things, you want to make sure you don't end up being pigeonholed as a CAD monkey.
(Unless, of course, production work and construction admin are what you're most interested in doing. There's no shame in that, and this profession needs people who know how to get stuff built.)
If anything, strong hand drawing and drafting skills will make you a better architect than any CAD class, for both design and production. Even if your next office doesn't own a single lead holder, good hand drawing skills will make a huge difference in your design work and CAD work.
As for unemployment, go for it, and do it first thing Monday morning. Sometimes there will be a delay in getting your first unemployment check, and you don't want to wait until you're out of groceries before you decide to file your claim. I made that mistake once, and it turned out my former employer had never bothered reporting my earnings to the state, causing a huge delay in getting benefits. Another lesson learned the hard way.
As for location, I'd call the other two firms you mentioned and follow the advice given by others on this thread. But if things don't work out in your town, you may need to seek out greener pastures elsewhere.
I started applying for randomn positions outside of architecture in order to hold me over. On Day 2 I got a new job working at a hotel doing the night shift(oh, how it reminds me of all nighters in college). Day 3, I started the new job. I'll keep you guys updated on how the rest of my hunting process works out.
It happens to all of us once: we get in over our heads with a job, or the firm gets in over their heads with their hiring and you get let go. My advice is SKIP ARCHITECTURAL DESKTOP and pick up a demo cd (or download it direct) of REVIT and spend the alotted 30 days getting to know that puppy inside out. The Federal Government requires REVIT now (GSA, anyway) and beginning sometime in 2008, so will the City of New York.
Here's why: I got my first job a week ahead of graduation. I left my first job 18 months out, to move tto NYC. I got another job on my first interview, within 24hrs in the city, and I have not been involuntarily unemployed since. I believe (and have been told) that my speed and graphic skill producing CD's was often indispensible. That production side will always get you in the front door. From there, getting to managment and then out on your own is all up to talent and smarts.
what to do when your let go..
I was just terminated from an architecture firm that I have been working for over the past 2 1/2 months. Other than this job, I have no previous architecture experience other than school. Of course, I have had other jobs during my life, but this was my first architecture job out of school.
Before heading to this firm, I applied with several other firms. There were two firms that I interviewed with that told me to contact them should my current job not work out. The question is what do I say to the other firms when they ask me why I left? I know I learned a lot in my present job and want to use the experience.
I was the first intern that my firm had ever hired directly out of college. They knew going into it that I had no firm experience (the first firm I worked for really did not count, because I was only doing office work). At my current firm, I worked under six different architects and began using architectural desktop the day I started, which I had never worked with before. They gave me a book, an office cad binder, then handed me markups. I was on salary and I usually got to work before the other interns and was usually the last to leave the office. I would often put in more time and then just not bill it, because I felt it was unfair to the client and the firm because I had a lot to learn. I knew after 2 weeks of being there that I did not have the knowledge that they expected, after all, I was fresh out of school, and none of the other interns had been. I always tried to keep a smile on my face, no matter the situation, and I always stopped to say hello to each person in the firm.
The firms’ explanation for terminating me was that I did not have enough structural knowledge or architectural desktop knowledge and that they did not have the time to train me. They offered me a 2 1/2 week severance package and sent me on my way. To be honest, I think that a combination of my salary and unrealistic expectations were what sent me on my way. I was overly lucky in that they offered me 44,000 a year starting out. However, because I did not have experience using architectural desktop, and had no previous office experience, I think they realized they could not afford me.
So when it comes down to it, I can see that I need more structural experience, however I am a hands on learner and was hoping to learn what I didn’t pick up in school in an office. I feel like if I go back and take more classes in structure that I will not learn anything. In addition, it is currently December and not the best time to find a construction job.
I know I want to stick to architecture because I love it and I am determined to not let this get me down. The question is, where do I go from here? Any advice would be appreciated. Also, if I could be so blunt, please keep the critique a little on the soft side.
to the next firm......
keep pushing along..... learn all you can..... do what you have to do to make you happy......
b
"The firms’ explanation for terminating me was that I did not have enough structural knowledge or architectural desktop knowledge and that they did not have the time to train me."
That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard.... do they really expect you to know that straight out of school? Those sound like nieve expectations to me and a very lazy and dissapointing attitude towards employee development. Unless you embellished you Architectural Desktop abilities, they should either have known what they're getting into or at the very least know that interns fresh out of school might not know ADT (honestly how many do).
I'd try those other two firms and just tell them what happened, tell them the firms explanation. It doesn't sound like anything to be ashamed of.
Sounds like your job was with a badly-managed firm, anyway. Hopefully your next gig will be much better, and you'll look upon losing this job as one of the best things that happened to your career.
Arch 6, sounds like an easy question to me. You say that 2 other firms asked you to call them if your job didn't work out. Well call them. Tell the truth on why you were let go, you did nothing wrong. You told them you had no experience, so it was wrong of them to hire you then not train you.
In the meantime, try your best to learn CAD on your own. Read everything you can about the real practice of architecture, not just theoretical design. Find out how buildings are built. You are not expected to be a structural enginner, just be able to read structural drawings. Find out all you can about all building systems.
Good luck.
Keep your chin up, lad.
Your job expected too much from a recent grad without giving them proper training. If you clearly vocalized your lack of experience and lack of Architectural Desktop knowledge, you didn't mislead them and you are not at fault.
Take the weekend off and call the two other firms on Monday. If they asked what happened, you should remain tactful, but honest. You may want to describe that, looking back, it was probably for the best because the firm wasn't capable of providing the hands-on experience that someone with your skillset needs and requires to effectively prosper in his/her career path.
You seem to have a strong work ethic and a good head on your shoulders. Don't let this discourage you from a bright future ahead.
Let Round 2 begin.
Call the other two firms.
Tell them the previous situation was not as expected, and you are looking to change gears, and clarify to them that you are looking to re-inforce your educational skills and accomplishments with real-world experience and practice.
you're lucky you were only invested 2-1/2 months in the situation.
i was canned from my first gig - nice to get it over with early on i say.
structural knowledge?
you were expected to design the structures? no engineers in office or as consultants? is that normal where you are?
i was started on structures, but just drafting plans and details, as assistant to engineer-architect (where i live most architects do their own engineering). it was part of the education program my office had. start with structures and basic archi-stuff (door schedules, interior elevations, code checks...) then move on from there...very much a learning by doing environment...and i made a LOT of mistakes.
but they expected that.
not expecting that is odd.
anyway, the whole deal sounds weird to me. better to be done with it.
isn't it great getting out of 5 years of school and having no real experience for the job your looking for...
it's a little hard to figure out what was really going on in your situation; either the firm was really poorly run as mentioned above, or the other possibility, and you may not want to hear this, is that your cad skills are really bad. lack of "structural knowledge" makes no sense whatsoever. are you sure that's what they said?
i have seen interns whose cad skills were so bad, it set project schedules back. it's rare that this happens and most firms will factor in a learning curve for new interns when creating project schedules, but if someone is just not getting it after a few months and drafting really inaccurately, it can be a nightmare for project. i'd look honestly at your cad skills. were you layed off for that reason? if so, i'd sit down with a cad book and start practicing. real office is experience is the best way to learn, but before that, it might be a good idea to really know the basics.
good luck.
actually your in good shape - 2.5 months is nothing. Having any parametric modeling software experiance is great for your resume to. 44k? First year out of school? Dam - what state you in?
It's always a bummer when things work out like that, but it sounds like the firm you were with was a very poorly managed one. They should never expect anyone right out of school to know all of that stuff and usually good firms give their new employees about a year to fully understand their capabilities. Plus, good firms will also have someone train you for about a week or so on how to use their particular software.
There are plenty of jobs out there right now so you shouldn't have any problems bouncing right back and getting a good job offer. And I'm not sure where you live but don't think that you need to accept a salary cut either. Keep your eyes open for a firm in which your superiors are also good educators who are eager to educate you as you develop your professional career. I had a hard time deciding what firm to work for and I chose the one in which the principles and associates straight up said that they want to educate me and guide me every step of the way to be a good architect. It's been very good so far.
arch6, this sentence worries me the most. Please do maintain your determination not to be too down about this. It sucks, of course, but it sounds to me like you are being very honest, both with yourself and with your former employers. Be proud of yourself for that, and wherever you end up next continue to be eager, optimistic, smiling, etc. Good employers will appreciate an enthusiastic, easy-to-get-along-with employee.
Speaking of which, it sounds like your previous employers were *not* the best employers, as said above, they sound somewhat mismanaged. In my experience, starting straight out of school at $44k *is* high. I don't want you to starve, but that number might be one that a future employer would balk at. Just keep that in mind.
I also agree with n_. Call the other firms Monday and see what they might have to offer. Good luck and I'm sure it will all eventually work out - chalk this up to one of many job experiences you will have in this career.
I think that depending on where you truly fall on the skill-spectrum (hard to evaluate thru archinect) that you should probably prepare yourself to accept your next job at a reduced salary from where you came. I would love for a green intern, one requiring a substantial amount of office training, to be paid 44k, but I doubt it.
Sounds like they offered you a starting salary for a job that you may not have been qualified for...nothing for you to feel bad about, it sounds like you did your best to meet the challenge but with little to no training by the firm I think they set you up to fail. Best of luck to you, go after those two other firms!
try to hold out for more $ but having only 2.5 months experiance and minimal ADT/ACAD it would be hard for many firms to justify 44K.
Good luck.
I've learned at least two things in life:
a) when firms pay "above market" wages, there's usually a reason -- meaning they're probably not great places to work and the firm is forced to pay above scale simply to attract bodies; and
b) when firms pay high wages, they attach to that condition very high expectations for performance.
While I acknowledge that everybody wants to receive the highest possible wages, these two background conditions are important to keep in mind whenever somebody offers you compensation that seems "too good to be true".
Not sure where you're located, but in this market you're likely to find new work before you've used up your severance pay.
Good luck --- I hope it works out well for you.
$44k out of school with now experience....wtf? Im underpaid
In answer to some of your questions, I live in northern California, outside of the bay area. Where I live, the architects do you use engineers, however the people in our firm are the ones to pick up the redlines and do the drafting after the engineer sees the plans, which as I understand, is the way it works in a lot of places. However, my firm prides itself on creating buildings that are interesting both structurally and architecturally, and want minimal redlines from the engineer.
In regards to my firms’ expectations, well the three other interns in the office are all guys, and all three of them worked at engineers offices before they started working at my firm. In addition, they have all done construction before. In order to combat any criticism from the architects I work for, I would go visit our jobsites on my own time, in order to understand structure better. When it comes to being held to the same bar as another associate, I believe that the best thing to do is be thankful that you are being pushed, suck it up, and try harder.
In regards to my AutoCAD skills, well as we all know, ADT is much different from AutoCAD. In the time that I worked for my firm, I worked on projects that were created in 3.0, AutoCAD 2007, and then later 2008, therefore was forced to transition between all three, while also learning the program. When it came to basic redlines, I received many compliments, and was told that I was fast. However, it was creating spaces, attaching boundaries, and creating 3D sections where I was a little slow. I did use the office ADT 2008 book to practice exercises before and after work, or on my lunch break.
4 weeks ago, a new project manager was hired on, who was well versed in 3D ADT 2008. They paired us together and he helped train me. His way of training me was giving me 20-minute tasks, and then checking on me. Even though I knew how to do some of the tasks he asked me, if I did not do things the way he did them, they were wrong. The office believed that this person’s methods and way of doing things would help make all firm projects 3D, and that the firm would be better off. Before working for our firm, he had his own firm, with an assistant under him, whom he had trained over the past 2 years that knew 3D ADT well. Two weeks ago, my firm interviewed her. I believe that because we are a small firm and they are trying to transition to more 3d models, they hired his old assistant to take my spot. All is fair in the game of business and architecture!
The real question is what do I say to future employers? I have no examples of the work that I did with my firm. While I had worked there, I helped put a small remodel through the building process, along with two other new residences. I worked on every sheet in the construction documents, and did the corrections of redlines for a cantilevered bridge, that the engineering firm had designed in the remodel I helped put through. I live in a small town, do you think it is safe to start applying for the other firms in town, or do you think I should call it a day, and try to find a job elsewhere? In addition, will my firm get mad if I file for unemployment while I am looking for a new job?
I walked into a job out of school but a fair bit of knowledge from summer work and asked for a pretty high wage but I said look. Start me at a lower wage for the first three months as trial period, if I didn't meet their expectations then I was gone, or continue to work at the starting rate or after the three months I got the bonus pay rate and I also got the difference paid out to me from the past three months. Wha t it shows is confidence in your skill set, gives the employer a trial period to judge you ( and you had better bust your ass ) and doesn't make the employer feel he's getting ripped off.
Try it out, years later I still hire everyone in my office the same way. Its a bit of a weasle clause but it is ultimately fair for all parties.
Also, thank you for the constructive criticism. I do plan on working on my cad skills in the mean time, and will not find it unrealistic if the next firm pays less starting out.
I am well versed in Illustrator and Photoshop, and have a little experience in 3D studio max and ArchiCAD from doing class projects with them. What computer skills should I focus on brushing up while I am looking for employment? Does any one know of any cheap 4 day classes for Revit training around the Sacramento area?
Actually I wouldn't really worry about any of that stuff.
Just go to a firm that is willing to educate you on how to be a good architect. I don't know if anyone else got this, but by reading your post, I get the feeling that you sound completely defeated and apologetic. I understand you were in an unfortunate situation, but just swallow it, pull it together, and move right along. Obviously it wasn't a good fit for you, so you must understand that there are offices out there that are much closer to what you're looking for.
I talked with an advisor today, and he also talked about a '3 month trial period' where you take a lower starting salary, but have an immediate review after the three month period. And you have to bust your ass to prove you are worth the increase in salary.
I'm going for a job next week, and thats what i'll be doing. Plus try and wheel-n-deal with them, i'm going to introduce tuition reimbursement and see if they go for that (its a tax writeoff for them anyway)
Tuition reimbursement... Don't make me laugh.
Cheer up ! If your CAD skills are really bad, there are two ways to approach it. Either brush up on your skills or find a job that does not require CAD --e.g building foam models for starchitects, or building digital models with BIM, and of course if you are up for it, project management ! btw, I think the latter path is a more enjoyable and rewarding path to becoming licensed..
never feel guilty about collecting unemployment, this is a benift employers are required to pay into for exactly this type of situation, that's why it's called insurance...
arch6..if this makes you feel any better i was let go last week based on the same explanation your office gave you. These people expected me to go straight into CDs and be able to know what i was doing. not to mention they are shifting from CAD to Revit which i thought was cool and actually got to pick up a lot of Revit training. They basically did not have the time to teach. I asked them specifically if there was a task or something I didnt perform and they said no..their response " you ask a lot of questions and we feel like you'll fit well in a smaller office". Arch6 keep your head up..its not just you. I lasted 5 months..my work experience is 5 more months stronger now!
2.5 months is no time at all in the "real world". don't even put it on your resume and you won't ever have to explain it. it sounds like there was a real mismatch in expectations and it happens. nothing to get down about...call up those other firms and this time around, i bet you'll ask some more questions about what it is you'll actually be doing.
: While "tuition reimbursement" may be a legitimate business expense and therefore deductible, it still costs the firm cold, hard cash --- the flaw in your logic is assuming that design firms pay taxes --- most don't, choosing instead to bonus out to staff and owners each year enough remaining cash to break-even for tax purposes.
so, while they could pay you, say, $5,000 in tuition reimbursement, it's not going to do anything much for them except lower the amount of year-end bonuses available for the guys sitting around you in the studio.
for the vast majority of firms, your idea won't make much sense at all. firms simply are not in the business of paying for your primary education.
I agree with ochona -- provided you can put together a decent answer if they ask you what you've been doing since graduation (which I tend to do if a resume shows a significant gap in time) there's really not much need to list such a short stint on your resume. no need to wave a flag in anybody's face.
tell em you spent the last two and half months workin on your cad skills.
quizz - so then we should expect year end bonuses?
44K out of school is something i still can't get over with or without experience, but that seems to be what I hear everywhere these days.
i hope you find a job that gives you what your looking for. i wish i could see more people willing to put in extra time to learn the things necessary to be effective.
good luck.
44k out of college is the going rate these days. Among my colleages who I graduated with, I heard offers that were as high as 55k.
In a conversation with my boss the other day (who has around 35 years of experience), he was telling us how these days intern level architects are getting payed respectable salaries that are comparible to what starting engineers make.
- careful there, pal. starting salaries vary widely by location, degree, portfolio and amout of prior work experience - generalizations like the one you made are neither helpful nor accurate.
Relax, Quizical. I've stated numerous times in other threads that is's all about location. The ones I'm refering to are in big expensive cities like Washington, New York, Philadelphia where 44k out of college is appropriate.
However it's not a stretch to say that such a salary cannot be expected in smaller towns like Raleigh-Durham, Virginia Beach, Asheville, NC, and Columbus.
The 55k individual had about 5 years of experience doing pretty solid work before grad school. That said anything under 35k is garbage even in a smaller city.
By the way it's Arch-med.
I was making 35-40 with solely an Assoc Degree and Autocad Certificate.
Quizz: I didnt say they were going to 'go for' the tuition reimbursement, its just another item to bring to the table. You would be surprised at what firms are willing work with. It also benefits me as an upcoming interview I have is with the elusive 'D' word...
I hedged my degree by working construction jobs. I did labor, landscaping, framing, and trim jobs over the course of a couple years. I also did a stint in a Corprorate CM office doing pm work. In the meantime at night, I took a few extra classes , like REVIT and a 3d CAD class.
I know that when you get out of school you want to do what you were trained for, but sometimes balancing your academia with other industries and supplemental tools empowers you more that straight drafting.
Of course I just work for myself..
Anyway, good luck arch6, this is only the beginning.
arch6, you sound like you are a really put-together person. I applaud you for taking this in stride and for viewing the situation with so much perspective and objectivity. I sympathize totally with your situation, because you're right, what do you tell potential employers?
What I think is sad is that it sounds like laziness on the part of the firm. I am finding that it's really difficult to find people who are hard workers and willing to learn new things, so it is certainly their loss that they weren't interested in being more patient with you. If I were in your place, I think I would probably be honest in future interviews. You can't start off on the wrong foot at your new job.....it will be hard, it's certainly not fun admitting to someone that you were let go, but you seem eloquent and humble enough to approach the situation appropriately. Just make sure that anyone interviewing you understands that you are already well versed in other programs, and although you are inexperienced, you are an earnest learner. We all have to start off somewhere, right? Good luck!
What WonderK said.
You mention the desire to learn more CAD skills... While this is admirable, your time might be better spent honing your design skills by entering some competitions or simply doing a few small hypothetical projects on your own. This could potentially make your portfolio really stand out from others at your experience level. While it's important to know the production end of things, you want to make sure you don't end up being pigeonholed as a CAD monkey.
(Unless, of course, production work and construction admin are what you're most interested in doing. There's no shame in that, and this profession needs people who know how to get stuff built.)
If anything, strong hand drawing and drafting skills will make you a better architect than any CAD class, for both design and production. Even if your next office doesn't own a single lead holder, good hand drawing skills will make a huge difference in your design work and CAD work.
As for unemployment, go for it, and do it first thing Monday morning. Sometimes there will be a delay in getting your first unemployment check, and you don't want to wait until you're out of groceries before you decide to file your claim. I made that mistake once, and it turned out my former employer had never bothered reporting my earnings to the state, causing a huge delay in getting benefits. Another lesson learned the hard way.
As for location, I'd call the other two firms you mentioned and follow the advice given by others on this thread. But if things don't work out in your town, you may need to seek out greener pastures elsewhere.
Good luck, and let us know how things work out.
Day 4 without architecture job:
I started applying for randomn positions outside of architecture in order to hold me over. On Day 2 I got a new job working at a hotel doing the night shift(oh, how it reminds me of all nighters in college). Day 3, I started the new job. I'll keep you guys updated on how the rest of my hunting process works out.
It happens to all of us once: we get in over our heads with a job, or the firm gets in over their heads with their hiring and you get let go. My advice is SKIP ARCHITECTURAL DESKTOP and pick up a demo cd (or download it direct) of REVIT and spend the alotted 30 days getting to know that puppy inside out. The Federal Government requires REVIT now (GSA, anyway) and beginning sometime in 2008, so will the City of New York.
Here's why: I got my first job a week ahead of graduation. I left my first job 18 months out, to move tto NYC. I got another job on my first interview, within 24hrs in the city, and I have not been involuntarily unemployed since. I believe (and have been told) that my speed and graphic skill producing CD's was often indispensible. That production side will always get you in the front door. From there, getting to managment and then out on your own is all up to talent and smarts.
Good luck!!
not enough structural knowledge, eh?
maybe they need to be taught a lesson...
all you need are:
1. ghillie
2. h&k msg-90 or equivelant
3. a round or two
4. huevos de oro
Maybe I should rewrite my resume to say newbie instead of 6 years experience so I can negotiate a good salary!
reading some of the comments in this thread, I don't make nearly enough money.
-- that could be said for all of us.
what whistler said
that is pretty common
and i think you were overpaid too
but you might be worth it...and that is a good way to find out
cha-ching
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