You don't build beautiful places for constitutional criminals and monsters. If anyone sees Stern at a party in the next few weeks, please throw a drink in his face. Maybe the alcohol will wake him from his dream. If the Iraq nightmare isn't clear enough, Stern need only look at the record of zero-pardoned executions Bush presided over as governor of Texas. Does Stern look forward to Stern=Speer T-shirts in architectural schools?
most commercial architects are basically HIRELINGS in the hands of politicians, whom sometimes tend to be criminals and mass murderers...
but it won't change with such gestures...better just suck it up...
it's not a hitler memorial, but i'll just quote something a US marine serving in Iraq 2 years ago told me: " Bush is such a disgrace to the US he will go down in history as the american hitler"....
One group of Iraqis killing another group of Iraqis and we are to blame? I guess they should just go back to the sytem dicatatorship where everyone gets killed. Or better yet, a radical Islamic theocracy, that would be swell.
evilplatypus
let me ask you a question, have you ever been to Iraq? if not, don't judge the situation cuz i've been there and i've spoke with the people as well as some of the brave marines who are barring the condition, for better or for worse....
nobody's blame for the shit in Iraq, but it was a stable country before dick cheney started thinking about all that oil....
again, don't you dare judge the death of 650000 iraqis and 4000 americans just like that....
if people have a problem with this, they should be protesting the construction of the library itself, not blaming Stern (which I could care less about)
i feel for the poor marines as well, but the default reaction of most people on this thread is to blame us, not the godam clerics who dont do shit but look the other way, not the europeans who dont want to get involved, no we go it alone. Im glad youve been to Iraq, Im making you a medal right now. Im sure your first hand experiance makes you an expert on international affairs nomadzilla. if we pull out there will be even more dead Iraqis and possibly a restart of the Iran v. Iraq war, which killed millions last time.
that's exactly the problem with the US policy in mid-east and iraq in particular, if your there people will die, if your not, still people will die, i don't agree with anyone who wants to blame US for all of this, but face it they did trigger the fire for the oil profits, but i just hate people who STILL think that US is in iraq to spread democracy,
and as for the the iran-iraq war, that was supported by the baa'th regime (the saddam folks) who are in minority in iraq, the majority are shias' who are very close with the regime in iran, and also FYI the US, France and Germany were the ones who sold saddam weapons (including chemical and biological) to attack iran and cause the death of over 2 million people (iranians, iraqis and a couple of years later kuwaitis) during the 8 year war, guess for what?.....obviously...OIL.
so no chance of that happening again...
o, BTW, thanks for the compliment but in such shitty conditions, i wont dare call myself an expert, just an observer who's seen both sides of the story, signing off from tehran...
Nomad, there's more than two sides to this story, there's millions. I don't think its fair to say that Iraqi Shias are close with the Iran regime. Your presumptions about the region are the same kind of presumptions the Admin. made.
Hillary signed off on the war in Iraq, and I do believe she's one of the few people in the democratic party that would continue that war, and start others, after Bush is gone.
wouldnt it be fair to say at least that since we sold chemical and biological weapons to Iraq that theirs validity to the idea that they actually do possess or did posess chemical arms and now those materials are missing? Isnt it also safe to say that America's hands off, interfere through intermediaries is how Iran v. Iraq war got started, and that by going in its actually the better policy?
Im curious to know the mood in Tehran nomad - in the 90's Tehran was being flaunted as this progresive muslim city that had film festivles and was free of the negative image from the Islamic revolutions of the 70's - now 10 years later a different Tehran is being shown on western TV. So whats the average citizen thinking right now in Tehran? Are they thinking about the Bush Library?
apurimac,
true, there is a lot more than 2 sides, but i generalized it into the western view of the problem (which i know since i grew up in the states and have been in touch ever since) and the islamic point of view (which i'm surrounded by right now and have been studying for quite sometime)
but i disagree with you, the shia's in iraq are very close with the iranian regime, if you hear from CNN or fox that iran is selling arms to al-qaida or taliban, it's just crap. but there are over 20000 soldiers called the al-mahdi army who get first hand supplies for the iranian government and everyone knows that, guess what....the al-hakim family whom are the most powerful family in iraq (financially and politically) are a major supporter and they have chairs in the parlament and the cabinet.
in addition most of the powerful shia politicians fled to iran during saddams regime. so i can't disagree with you more....
as for hillary, i really don't know much about her status on the mid-east, what i meant was that i think a democrat in the office MIGHT help the situation (at least they might have the guts (and brain) to set a timetable for training the iraqi police accurately and eventually withdrawal (including haliburton).
as for the Democrats, what about Obama (it seems he has less chance to win) but what's his policy?
evilplatypus,
the problem is that the US doesn't want to admit selling chemicals to Iraq and investigate where there gone, at the same time. because in that case they'll be responsible for the death of over 400000 kurds in the city of hallabche during saddam's rule. i guess saddam was so desperate towards the end of the war against iran as well as the iraqi kurds, that he used all he had got from the west, but this is just my opinion and i haven't seen much fact proving it.
sorry, but i don't quite understand your second question about US's role in the Iran-Iraq war, can you clarify that one?
as for tehran, when you see the "surface" of the city, it's this big, modern city with 14 million population, terrible traffic but beautiful landscape, the only difference it has with any other big metropolitan is the islamic restrictions, you can find a lot of businesswomen in the street driving the latest model of BMW talking with their client in Dubai on their cellphone, but they have to wear a scarf along with long loose clothing. it's a city of total paradoxes.
but when you go into the city, you'll find the craziest parties you can find ANYWHERE in the world, most drugs are cheaper than cigerates and culturally it's more westernized than any other city in the region.
peoples lives seem to be so different from the governmental elites.
it's like two different worlds, i've never seen any country where the people and government are so different, but you know what... the ONLY thing they both agree on is Iran's RIGHT to peaceful nuclear power, hell... even the US government agreed with that when they signed a 50-billion dollar nuclear deal with iran back in 1976.
hahaha...no the average citizen is not concerned with the bush library, their main concerns are: a dumbass president named ahmadinejad who is screwing up all the development,30-year old sanctioned Iran had gained after a long 8-year war with iraq, rasionalized fuel in the third largest exporter of oil, the elite getting richer and richer while 80% are getting poorer. and much much more.
but the library isn't one of them.
the image you see in the media is far from what's happening here, and they know it.
i can post some pictures of real iran and real tehran, if you guys were interested, or if your more curious i can just send you an invitation and you can see for yourself...anyone?!
I understand there is some legislation being proposed that the oil industry be de-nationalized. The reason is that it would be a whole
lot more stable it it were operated by international companies. They would basicly be promised control for 30 years of the oil fields in Iraq.
I don't really recall the exact fiscal split of the moneys but I do recall
the companys taking the biggest piece of the pie, and the smallest going to Iraq. I believe this legislation is being railroaded thru the Iraqis Govenment, but I'm not positive. When I heard the program on the radio, it all seemed surreal. I don't know if anyone else caught this news program on the radio, but I would sure love to hear what you think.
first of all i must say my last note (if you can call it that) was the longest i've ever submitted, wonder if anyone read through it?!
snooker
ya, i've read about that proposal, let me just say as long as the kurds, sunnis and shias aren't assured of getting a good deal of money out of the bargain, it won't happen. all three parties have their forces and the only one running from within iraq is the kurds, the shias are supported by iran and syria, and the sunnis are supported by the saudis and jordan. so i don't believe that it CAN BE a stable plan as long as the so called international companies are taking 75% of the profit.
its just a modern way of colonisation. once it was gold and diamonds and slaves now it's oil...
O, and sorry that this thread doesn't have anything to do with stupid bush or his stupid library...
there's a couple of other threads discussing that now.... ;-)
OK, for those of you defending Stern and the library here.. forget for a moment what one thinks about Bush... a $300-500 million library (by a factor of 4, the largest and most expensive presidential library to date), being constructed over the objections of much of SMU's faculty and student body.. a monument to an administration with a 28% approval rating, that, in its own words, doesn't believe that virtually any of its records should ever have to go into a library or be otherwise released to the public, in the first place, and for which local reports suggest that dozens or perhaps even hundreds of homes will have to be destroyed, possibly even with the city using eminent domain to seize them? If our profession had a code of ethics, this project would violate it.. even if Bush was FDR.
evilplatypus
sure....i guess that's why they let politically instable pakistan get a nuke bomb, or signed a nuke deal with saudi arabia this year (don't forget saudi is the biggest oil exporter in the world). i'm sure it's not double standards...wake up and smell the coffee baby!
it doesn't have ANYTHING to do with theocracy, it's fair to say the pakistani or saudi government are AT LEAST as religion-driven as iran, it's just in the interest of the bush admin. to keep a couple of friends in the mid-east.
don't get me wrong, i'm not defending the iranian governments' actions, i feel nauseous everytime ahmadinejad starts talking about israel or the nuke issue. but quote:"the west will never support any theocracy's right to nuclear power. Period." is just bullying somebody around.
don't forget i put it in capital letters for you: RIGHT, that's very different from actually DOING it, which is a whole other story (and i oppose being done by the hardliners like ahmadinejad, etc.)
...and if you are going to say things like darfur or palestine is the holocaust and you personally are not doing anything about it, then what's the point?
OK, for those of you defending Stern and the library here.. forget for a moment what one thinks about Bush... a $300-500 million library (by a factor of 4, the largest and most expensive presidential library to date), being constructed over the objections of much of SMU's faculty and student body.. a monument to an administration with a 28% approval rating, that, in its own words, doesn't believe that virtually any of its records should ever have to go into a library or be otherwise released to the public, in the first place, and for which local reports suggest that dozens or perhaps even hundreds of homes will have to be destroyed, possibly even with the city using eminent domain to seize them? If our profession had a code of ethics, this project would violate it.. even if Bush was FDR.
I did not know that, i have serious qualms with the project now.
- I agree w/ Trace - "back to the library...if people have a problem with this, they should be protesting the construction of the library itself, not blaming Stern (which I could care less about)"
-LETS CHAIN OURSELVES TO THE TREES THEY WILL BULLDOZE AT THE SITE.
A code of ethics which protects us from interior designers, long armed lawyers and the sit at home moms....on Architectural Historical Commissions. I think as a profession we need to fricking go on STRIKE! Tell the buggers...we are on the level of MD Doctors and we sure the hell know what were doing so don't meddle.
so Clinton can lie and commit a constitutional crime, but since he's a democrat his lies are justified? Good gosh stop the bush bashing-it is so annoying. Everyone is sick of him-even conservatives...
In a statement about the Bush library Robert A.M. Stern says:
"The president, if he were here, he'd say, ‘Eventually people will not be so interested in George W. Bush but they will be interested in the ideas, the forums and debates and things that can occur,”
he continues
"So I think he and I are on the absolute same wavelength in that respect."
In this statement, Stearn seems to be distancing himself from Bush's politics but agrees to design the library anyway. This arguably can not be done. Additionally it puts his own integrity in question.
"... by integrity I mean being honest in the way you deal with the people you inevitably, come into contact with. And I also mean believing in something. This can be an aesthetic, a political or a pragmatic belief, but you have to be prepared to stand up for something. If you don’t believe in anything, no one will believe in you."
Why would you develop something that you don't believe in Stern? Why not say "yes I stand proudly with the Bush agenda, I support it and I want to realize a building that stands firmly for something I believe in"?
NO LIBRARY FOR BUSH!
You don't build beautiful places for constitutional criminals and monsters. If anyone sees Stern at a party in the next few weeks, please throw a drink in his face. Maybe the alcohol will wake him from his dream. If the Iraq nightmare isn't clear enough, Stern need only look at the record of zero-pardoned executions Bush presided over as governor of Texas. Does Stern look forward to Stern=Speer T-shirts in architectural schools?
Im sure the holocaust survivers would'nt find your lazy use of Nazi metaphor too convincing an emotional appeal
thread over
let it die
most commercial architects are basically HIRELINGS in the hands of politicians, whom sometimes tend to be criminals and mass murderers...
but it won't change with such gestures...better just suck it up...
thread's dead, baby, thread's dead
who's zed?
hey troll, you're a week late
Are there any drawings of Stern's proposal available yet? I'd love to see what this particular ethically impaired starchitect comes up with...
Some of you cats are seriously acting like the man just got commissioned to build a Hitler memorial...
apurimac;
it's not a hitler memorial, but i'll just quote something a US marine serving in Iraq 2 years ago told me: " Bush is such a disgrace to the US he will go down in history as the american hitler"....
no offense to the republican folks, hell, i used to be a republican myself... but what is happening in iraq right now IS the holocaust.
One group of Iraqis killing another group of Iraqis and we are to blame? I guess they should just go back to the sytem dicatatorship where everyone gets killed. Or better yet, a radical Islamic theocracy, that would be swell.
evilplatypus
let me ask you a question, have you ever been to Iraq? if not, don't judge the situation cuz i've been there and i've spoke with the people as well as some of the brave marines who are barring the condition, for better or for worse....
nobody's blame for the shit in Iraq, but it was a stable country before dick cheney started thinking about all that oil....
again, don't you dare judge the death of 650000 iraqis and 4000 americans just like that....
nomad--iraqis were dying before and after the occupation. a country may be stable under a dictatorship but hussein did kill many of his own people.
back to the library...
if people have a problem with this, they should be protesting the construction of the library itself, not blaming Stern (which I could care less about)
i feel for the poor marines as well, but the default reaction of most people on this thread is to blame us, not the godam clerics who dont do shit but look the other way, not the europeans who dont want to get involved, no we go it alone. Im glad youve been to Iraq, Im making you a medal right now. Im sure your first hand experiance makes you an expert on international affairs nomadzilla. if we pull out there will be even more dead Iraqis and possibly a restart of the Iran v. Iraq war, which killed millions last time.
that's exactly the problem with the US policy in mid-east and iraq in particular, if your there people will die, if your not, still people will die, i don't agree with anyone who wants to blame US for all of this, but face it they did trigger the fire for the oil profits, but i just hate people who STILL think that US is in iraq to spread democracy,
and as for the the iran-iraq war, that was supported by the baa'th regime (the saddam folks) who are in minority in iraq, the majority are shias' who are very close with the regime in iran, and also FYI the US, France and Germany were the ones who sold saddam weapons (including chemical and biological) to attack iran and cause the death of over 2 million people (iranians, iraqis and a couple of years later kuwaitis) during the 8 year war, guess for what?.....obviously...OIL.
so no chance of that happening again...
bottom line.....go Hillary go!
o, BTW, thanks for the compliment but in such shitty conditions, i wont dare call myself an expert, just an observer who's seen both sides of the story, signing off from tehran...
Nomad, there's more than two sides to this story, there's millions. I don't think its fair to say that Iraqi Shias are close with the Iran regime. Your presumptions about the region are the same kind of presumptions the Admin. made.
Hillary signed off on the war in Iraq, and I do believe she's one of the few people in the democratic party that would continue that war, and start others, after Bush is gone.
wouldnt it be fair to say at least that since we sold chemical and biological weapons to Iraq that theirs validity to the idea that they actually do possess or did posess chemical arms and now those materials are missing? Isnt it also safe to say that America's hands off, interfere through intermediaries is how Iran v. Iraq war got started, and that by going in its actually the better policy?
Im curious to know the mood in Tehran nomad - in the 90's Tehran was being flaunted as this progresive muslim city that had film festivles and was free of the negative image from the Islamic revolutions of the 70's - now 10 years later a different Tehran is being shown on western TV. So whats the average citizen thinking right now in Tehran? Are they thinking about the Bush Library?
apurimac,
true, there is a lot more than 2 sides, but i generalized it into the western view of the problem (which i know since i grew up in the states and have been in touch ever since) and the islamic point of view (which i'm surrounded by right now and have been studying for quite sometime)
but i disagree with you, the shia's in iraq are very close with the iranian regime, if you hear from CNN or fox that iran is selling arms to al-qaida or taliban, it's just crap. but there are over 20000 soldiers called the al-mahdi army who get first hand supplies for the iranian government and everyone knows that, guess what....the al-hakim family whom are the most powerful family in iraq (financially and politically) are a major supporter and they have chairs in the parlament and the cabinet.
in addition most of the powerful shia politicians fled to iran during saddams regime. so i can't disagree with you more....
as for hillary, i really don't know much about her status on the mid-east, what i meant was that i think a democrat in the office MIGHT help the situation (at least they might have the guts (and brain) to set a timetable for training the iraqi police accurately and eventually withdrawal (including haliburton).
as for the Democrats, what about Obama (it seems he has less chance to win) but what's his policy?
evilplatypus,
the problem is that the US doesn't want to admit selling chemicals to Iraq and investigate where there gone, at the same time. because in that case they'll be responsible for the death of over 400000 kurds in the city of hallabche during saddam's rule. i guess saddam was so desperate towards the end of the war against iran as well as the iraqi kurds, that he used all he had got from the west, but this is just my opinion and i haven't seen much fact proving it.
sorry, but i don't quite understand your second question about US's role in the Iran-Iraq war, can you clarify that one?
as for tehran, when you see the "surface" of the city, it's this big, modern city with 14 million population, terrible traffic but beautiful landscape, the only difference it has with any other big metropolitan is the islamic restrictions, you can find a lot of businesswomen in the street driving the latest model of BMW talking with their client in Dubai on their cellphone, but they have to wear a scarf along with long loose clothing. it's a city of total paradoxes.
but when you go into the city, you'll find the craziest parties you can find ANYWHERE in the world, most drugs are cheaper than cigerates and culturally it's more westernized than any other city in the region.
peoples lives seem to be so different from the governmental elites.
it's like two different worlds, i've never seen any country where the people and government are so different, but you know what... the ONLY thing they both agree on is Iran's RIGHT to peaceful nuclear power, hell... even the US government agreed with that when they signed a 50-billion dollar nuclear deal with iran back in 1976.
hahaha...no the average citizen is not concerned with the bush library, their main concerns are: a dumbass president named ahmadinejad who is screwing up all the development,30-year old sanctioned Iran had gained after a long 8-year war with iraq, rasionalized fuel in the third largest exporter of oil, the elite getting richer and richer while 80% are getting poorer. and much much more.
but the library isn't one of them.
the image you see in the media is far from what's happening here, and they know it.
i can post some pictures of real iran and real tehran, if you guys were interested, or if your more curious i can just send you an invitation and you can see for yourself...anyone?!
oh jesus
I understand there is some legislation being proposed that the oil industry be de-nationalized. The reason is that it would be a whole
lot more stable it it were operated by international companies. They would basicly be promised control for 30 years of the oil fields in Iraq.
I don't really recall the exact fiscal split of the moneys but I do recall
the companys taking the biggest piece of the pie, and the smallest going to Iraq. I believe this legislation is being railroaded thru the Iraqis Govenment, but I'm not positive. When I heard the program on the radio, it all seemed surreal. I don't know if anyone else caught this news program on the radio, but I would sure love to hear what you think.
nomad, i'm increasingly convinced your trolling, the Dems will be just as useless as the Rebs once in power.
I thought we didn't have any true believer Dems in this forum?
first of all i must say my last note (if you can call it that) was the longest i've ever submitted, wonder if anyone read through it?!
snooker
ya, i've read about that proposal, let me just say as long as the kurds, sunnis and shias aren't assured of getting a good deal of money out of the bargain, it won't happen. all three parties have their forces and the only one running from within iraq is the kurds, the shias are supported by iran and syria, and the sunnis are supported by the saudis and jordan. so i don't believe that it CAN BE a stable plan as long as the so called international companies are taking 75% of the profit.
its just a modern way of colonisation. once it was gold and diamonds and slaves now it's oil...
i read your response to me, your view of the dems made me snigger a bit. But its all in good taste.
thanks, but you didn't answer my question on Obama, is he any different? and does he really have any chance of winning?
O, and sorry that this thread doesn't have anything to do with stupid bush or his stupid library...
there's a couple of other threads discussing that now.... ;-)
nomad, you are asking the wrong guy about a fave politician, especially a main stream one. (Hint: See the BTAG threads.)
The only politician i've heard of running for prez and even remotely agree with is Ron Paul. Obama is a guy I'd watch football and drink beer with.
OK, thanks dude ;-)
the west will never support any theocracy's right to nuclear power. Period.
OK, for those of you defending Stern and the library here.. forget for a moment what one thinks about Bush... a $300-500 million library (by a factor of 4, the largest and most expensive presidential library to date), being constructed over the objections of much of SMU's faculty and student body.. a monument to an administration with a 28% approval rating, that, in its own words, doesn't believe that virtually any of its records should ever have to go into a library or be otherwise released to the public, in the first place, and for which local reports suggest that dozens or perhaps even hundreds of homes will have to be destroyed, possibly even with the city using eminent domain to seize them? If our profession had a code of ethics, this project would violate it.. even if Bush was FDR.
evilplatypus
sure....i guess that's why they let politically instable pakistan get a nuke bomb, or signed a nuke deal with saudi arabia this year (don't forget saudi is the biggest oil exporter in the world). i'm sure it's not double standards...wake up and smell the coffee baby!
it doesn't have ANYTHING to do with theocracy, it's fair to say the pakistani or saudi government are AT LEAST as religion-driven as iran, it's just in the interest of the bush admin. to keep a couple of friends in the mid-east.
don't get me wrong, i'm not defending the iranian governments' actions, i feel nauseous everytime ahmadinejad starts talking about israel or the nuke issue. but quote:"the west will never support any theocracy's right to nuclear power. Period." is just bullying somebody around.
don't forget i put it in capital letters for you: RIGHT, that's very different from actually DOING it, which is a whole other story (and i oppose being done by the hardliners like ahmadinejad, etc.)
I never trusted guys with two first names.....Ron Paul....or Paul Ron....it is to easy of a switch up....
sorry urbanist, i usually don't intend to change the subject in a thread...
evilplatypus started it....ME OUT!
what is happening in Palestine is the Holocaust...
darfur is today's holocaust
the Holocaust was the Holocaust
...and if you are going to say things like darfur or palestine is the holocaust and you personally are not doing anything about it, then what's the point?
I did not know that, i have serious qualms with the project now.
who would have thought that a library would cause such an uproar?
there's a lot of "holocaust"s happening in the world right now (iraq, darfur, palestine, these are the ones the media covers, etc.)
"the holocaust" was just one of them (one of the worst)
but i think at least knowing that it's happening around us, in the 21th century, is better than just ignoring the whole thing...
we cannot mention anything unless we are personally involved in it
i ate lunch today. and did some stuff. picked up the mail, ho hum.
i think the gw library will be stupid, regardless of who's designing it and how much it costs.
we would be better off with the 'gw skool fer kidz hoo kant reed gud"
regardless, i will avoid his stupid library at all costs
Dear Friends,
Oh shit! This thread is really lame. What am I doing here?
With Love!
eb
BLAH, BLAH, BLAH - y'ALL WASTIN YOUR BREATH
- I agree w/ Trace - "back to the library...if people have a problem with this, they should be protesting the construction of the library itself, not blaming Stern (which I could care less about)"
-LETS CHAIN OURSELVES TO THE TREES THEY WILL BULLDOZE AT THE SITE.
how 'bout turning ourselves into the authorities for aiding and abetting terrorist organizations by paying taxes?
I still think the profession needs a code of ethics...
A code of ethics which protects us from interior designers, long armed lawyers and the sit at home moms....on Architectural Historical Commissions. I think as a profession we need to fricking go on STRIKE! Tell the buggers...we are on the level of MD Doctors and we sure the hell know what were doing so don't meddle.
so Clinton can lie and commit a constitutional crime, but since he's a democrat his lies are justified? Good gosh stop the bush bashing-it is so annoying. Everyone is sick of him-even conservatives...
In a statement about the Bush library Robert A.M. Stern says:
"The president, if he were here, he'd say, ‘Eventually people will not be so interested in George W. Bush but they will be interested in the ideas, the forums and debates and things that can occur,”
he continues
"So I think he and I are on the absolute same wavelength in that respect."
In this statement, Stearn seems to be distancing himself from Bush's politics but agrees to design the library anyway. This arguably can not be done. Additionally it puts his own integrity in question.
I read an interesting definition of integrity:
"... by integrity I mean being honest in the way you deal with the people you inevitably, come into contact with. And I also mean believing in something. This can be an aesthetic, a political or a pragmatic belief, but you have to be prepared to stand up for something. If you don’t believe in anything, no one will believe in you."
Why would you develop something that you don't believe in Stern? Why not say "yes I stand proudly with the Bush agenda, I support it and I want to realize a building that stands firmly for something I believe in"?
Block this user
Are you sure you want to block this user and hide all related comments throughout the site?
Archinect
This is your first comment on Archinect. Your comment will be visible once approved.