does anyone want to help me finish my thesis? it's going way too slow. i'm willing to pay and you can be proud to say you've helped me. hahahahahahaha. i need someone to finish my... furniture layout. i know. pathetic.
katze. haha. i'm kinda serious. 100$ for furniture layout. any takers?
it's kind of embarrasing to admit that i already hired a team of structural engineers and renderers helping me finish my thesis and yet i cant finish a simple furniture layout.
...when it was just a regular project during my lower years the whole project would've been done in 2 days.
I've heard of "helpers" or "elves" that step in before a thesis is due to assist on the last-minute rendering. I also heard of one student who hired a graphic designer to organize her final presentation boards. Another student sent his AutoCAD drawings to a shop that cut a hundred scaled trusses for his project (before the days of prevalent laser cutters).
But I've never heard of a thesis student who hired a structural engineer to do his/her work.
I, as long as thousands of other architects/designers, frequently hire on structural engineers to work on projects. We have different roles and responsibilities on a project. We are not trained to be structural engineers. I see nothing wrong with that.
I had the same question; I assumed architecture school must have operated a bit differently than other school programs. If the faculty received word that I hired folks to finish my final software engineering project that would have been grounds for immediate dismissal. kellynsee, I seriously thought you were joking.
Are there no acedemic ground rules in place for thesis work? I don't get it.
diabase: actually it's because my building looks like a tower which is twisting with no columns in the middle and i just wanted to present computations as to how it would hold up a 9 floor block on top of it. just to prove that it can be done. i didn't have to actually hire, it was just an extra step on my part just so when the jury asks me how the tower would hold up. take note, *it wasn't required. i just wanted to have an answer when they ask me ..."so, how would it hold up"
katze: haha. nope, no ground rules. anyway i asked around the lower years to help me clean up my floor plans and do some of the furniture and he's doing it for free. yey! you made me realize that $100 is peanuts in the developed countries.
i'll comment more on thesis when i'm done with school. right now.. teachers might be lurking...
oldfogey: yeah i'd be a shoo in for thesis of the year if that was the case! but... no. hahaha.
2 weeks to go before final deliberations!
i just had to ask, someone once told me that when you reach thesis year (in europe and us) that they can't fail you?
and.. my problem with rendering is that i have no idea how to use rendering programs.
3dmax? viz? what's that? no idea. revit? i'll just stare them all in the face. the only program i know how to use is sketchup, and i'm not even very good at it.
i can draw tho. and sketch. that's the bulk of my talents.. or the lack of it.
We always take an up front retainer, you can send it to P.O.Box 007,
Logos, Nigeria. Once it arrives we will be your servants 24/7 until your project is done. Please include a certified cashiers check for $1,000,000.00.
Are structural calculations really necessary? Did one of your committee/faculty members tell you that you needed to be able to prove - via actual calculations - that your structure would work? It seems like you miss the point of a thesis project, in this instance. Can't you demonstrate other precedent in which this kind of structural system was used? Or even relate it to something else in physics or nature?
For instance, in my thesis project, I used catenary curved cables to suspend swimming pools high above an existing body of water. Did I produce a single structural calculation? No. I merely presented Saarinen's strategy for forming the roof of Dulles Airport. Everyone on my committee was thrilled, and it freed me up to explore other architectural aspects of the project.
I'm guessing in kellyn's school they perhaps grade only on design intent, and not on structure, etc? Perhaps not as holistic an approach as we're used to. Frankly that sounds freeing...
i actually used some of my scholarship money to pay a local hack firm to produce most of the drawings for my thesis project. i provided them with some sketches and retained the role of "design architect" while they did most of the work. nobody seemed to really have a problem with this.
dca: nope, nobody told me to make actual calculations. as i've said, it was an extra step. i couldn't easily show them any picture of what was already built as i have no idea where i'd get a picture of my structural system.
and hey, structural engineers are there for a reason. right?
myriam: yeah well of course we have to show them the structural concept but it's up to us if we want to be "obsessive compulsive" about it. which is why i pid an engineer to help me with it as i am hopeless with structural concepts. paying an architect to help me would be really unfair right? at least all i did was get the usual key players of a regular construction project to help me with some details.
for me it just shows initiative that you get someone to prove your building would actually stand up. oh, and nobody calculated anything, just the concept which i needed an engineer for becuase i was designing a tower-like structure. i'll post pictures when i'm done with it.
if i had known that this would cause this much irritation among archinecters then i wouldn't have posted this.
its pretty much what puddles did, i provided everyone with everything they needed, sketches, details i wanted them to use, the technology i wanted to appear and other stuff. i just couldnt deal with being a cad monkey.
Awaiting the arrival of or first million.....Haven't had an e-mail confirming its arrival. Sorry we will be out today golfing in Up-State New York, because skiing is crap this year.
I think most people would agree hiring someone to do your work is 'buying' the presentation. So those that are rich (or have large limits on their credit cards, God forbid) could have a 100% outsourced presentation.
Getting help is one thing, but hiring a professional firm seems a little unfair to me. Paying a student or two seems fine to me too, but going outside of school, imho, seems over the line.
I dunno, though, in the age of laser cutters and glossy printed boards maybe you have to (has there been any progress with printing in school? Somehow I doubt it).
Structure - all that matters is how it was used in the process. If numbers helped drive the form and design, then it should be there already. Just making up numbers, even if they are 'real', seems irrelevant to me. I mean, every project could have this, right?
It's about the architecture, the strategy and the process.
For the structure, why don't you build a physical model and apply some forces in the form of weights/fans/etc to prove its stability. I think that would impress your jury more than calculation sheets. If you have time, check out Cecil Balmond's book, Informal. It's a great resource for combining concept with structure and it's written in layman's language.
As far as paying people to do parts of your thesis...
I didn't even know you could do this. Isn't that equivalent to not citing information in a written thesis and passing it off as your own? How is it different for design? Unless you give credit somehow to your production team, it's like plagiarism.
guys, it's the same thing as principal designers paying for apprentices and interns. it's their idea(hopefully) and they tell the apprentices what to do while the principal designers get all the credit. if everyone is telling me that what im doing is "cheating" then let's all do away with cad monkeys, interns and apprentices then.
medusa: of course i'll give credit to my production team! that's just selfish if i dont. anyway thanks so much for the suggestion regarding the physical model. will try that :)
jasoncross: why? are you a cadd monkey? geez. i thought we are all studying/practicing to become better architects, not turning into cad monkeys.
snooker: i thought you were in nigeria. a mil is too much for a week's work. i already hired local consultants. thanks :)but next time i have a project i'll know who to call.
no, i am not. but what you are actually talking about are drawings...something integral to design...and you just don't want to do it...pahleeze...you are acting like a major prima donna.
doing your own drawings will not turn you into a cad monkey...it just means you are a designer capable of dealing with all the work you need to get done...You on the other hand can't...that is sad.
kellynsee - I think the underlying point here is that when you get a grade for your thesis it is meant to represent YOUR abilities in design. At the school level, this also includes time management, presentation ability, structural awareness etc. While these are things that you will be able to outsource in the professional environment, developing your own abilities in them will allow you to be a much more considerate architect with an awareness of all the supporting roles around you.
However, I think the most important point here is that what you are suggesting - paying for thesis work - flies in the face of the essence of education. Students should judged on ability, and should NOT be given grade advantages due to the size of their bank account (even thought this is obviously not always the case - e.g. If you can't afford to go to a certain school etc). Once you start paying someone to design furniture layouts or do drawings where do you stop? The kid next to you with more talent but less money can't hope to compete when you are able to hire professionals to make his student work pale in comparisson. I think this is a very dangerous road you need to see the differences between the professional and educational sectors before you dissillusion yourself.
jasoncross: im aware as to how im acting. no need to tell me that i'm spoiled.
i was just wondering why you related being a cad monkey to the "work" meaning the craft.
and i did my own drawings. i just can't deal with furniture layout right now. it's even one of the more relaxing things about architecture. i dont want to explain anymore about how i ran out of time etc etc since you guys probably dont care.
chch: i see your point. which is why i'm taking medusa's advice regarding the study model rather than the engineer. but i still needed some advice from my consulting engineers regarding some structural details which i sort of invented.
i'll post later chch. i'm still looking for some of the stuff i need regarding structural glass. but thanks for the advice :) i totally needed that wake up call. i'll post more when i'm done with my thesis.
that's cheating. if i was a classmate of yours, and found out you were PAYING to get anything, other than plots, or materials, but actual numbers or work, i would not like that.
if you cannot finish your work for your thesis, then you did not plan accordingly. As said before, a thesis is supposed to show your design process, blah blah blah .. and also your time management, working under pressure, constraints. can this student put together all of these complex ideas in the time given. you have (had) probably an entire year to do this.
When you go into the real world and you cannot finish a project, are you going to blow your profit on outsourcing work? You'd lose money on the project, and well, its a snow ball effect from there. Just a small example.
"That's not a bad point in my way of thinking, and let's do away with Kinkos, using photographs, and CAD as a mode of production while we're at it."
what are kinkos?
honestly i can live without cad. hahaha. and we dont use any photographs as reference for our presentations. thats more unfair. we have to draft everythng.
yes oldfogey i admit i'm lazy but *sorry* you havent seen my work yet.. the ones ive finished anyway. the deadline was moved up which is why im rushing about and i know if i cant have more time why not just *buy* it instead-- literally.
and.... good news. i finished the furniture by myself. the person i was supposed to hire wasnt done with his work (he's in the lower years.. architecture) so i just stayed at home.. didnt study for my test this afternoon and do my furniture layout.
and i already know that i can't do everything myself so whats wrong with asking for a bit of help? payment is a form of thank you in my opinion since i hired most of my friends for the bits of my thesis that i cant produce myself well like the structural concept.. renderings(i just asked one of my friends to sketchup it for me and i;m coloring it by hand since i dont know how to use any rendering programs) they didnt ask for payment but im more than willing to pay them for the time they spent on my thesis (i treat them to coffee, lunch, dinner whenever possible, buy them gift baskets from expensive stores will still give them monetary benefits like the aforementioned $100 and of course, acknowledgement in my thesis boards and my thesis book for all they help they've given me.) no one asked for money, gifts or little treats, it's just how i am as a friend i think.
there was a woman in my first semester of architecture school, a tri-delt, who never did anything until (sometimes) the night before the presentation. then, as we were all staying up late, she'd sidle over, flirt a little, and ask if we wanted to make a little money by doing her project. daddy was the owner of an electronics-store chain that got bought by a bigger chain sometime in the late 80s.
of course she had no takers, and flunked out of arch school the next semester.
it's not exactly the case here. kelly actually did do some of the work. s/he just wants someone to finish it off. kinda like running 90 yards and then paying servants to carry him/her the final 10. in an eames chair.
i gotta hand it to kelly. s/he is right up front. s/he's got problems, but s/he's got cash, and s/he is used to cash solving the problems. would that i had grown up with such a sense of entitlement. but s/he's not playing innocent or humble. wow.
and the whole lucille bluth comment about how "100$" is peanuts in the developed countries? i can't speak, i'm speechless. sounds like the priggish assholes the US seceded from 230.5 years ago.
to get back on topic, hiring a team of experts to work on your thesis -- means you didn't do the work yourself. unlike the "real" world of architecture (at least in the US), the thesis is intended to be solely the work of the candidate, except perhaps in the realm of collaboration (that word is latin for "working TOGETHER on a project") on items that, as with the structural engineer, are outside the true scope of what should be expected from a thesis.
that means, kelly, learn all those programs that we proletarians have to learn so that we can get an -- don't cry now, get one of your design slaves to get you a tissue -- INTERNSHIP -- so that we can get a license -- so that, finally, after 10-15 years, we can get other people to do our work for us.
oh wait, sounds like you have enough cash to return to the "undeveloped" countries and buy your own firm immediately. good luck on daddy's vacation house. i'll see you on the pages of the "design vanguard" issue of architectural record.
oldfogey: i know lazy's not funny! it's just that everyone's calling me that sooooo ok. i'll just accept the fact that maybe i am lazy from your point of view.
i'm from ta-dahhh the philippines. hahahaha. so no kinkos here.
ochana: i am studying all the required programs for an internship after i graduate from college since the school didnt provide us with such classes. we had to go out and get certificates from other schools for that. they weren't cheap either. the cost of learning all those programs is enough to pay someone your whole thesis project. so i just thought.. why not enjoy my summers and learn them all when i graduate when i wont have any more leisurely summers.
haha. about the$100 is peanuts,.. one of my friends just told me that $100 is nothing in the US when i told him i posted that im paying $100 for people to do a bit of my work. i wouldn't know! i don't live there.
and to make it clear.. i didnt pay people to do my thesis. i did them all. the plans, elevations, sections, etc. it's just that i can't really do some of those work well enough to merit a good quality presentation.
and i'm not used to cash to solve my problems. someone advised me to just pay someone to do all the clean up work and cadd stuff that i dont know how to use so i can finish my work earlier with a better presentation material to pass to the jury.
so, kellysnee, here's the big question that comes up when I read this stuff: If your professors/jury found out about the help you recieved or are trying to obtain, would they still pass you? Because at the school I went to, they wouldn't. Enlisting a first or second year to help with tedious manual labor for an hour or two, such as making trees or cutting 120 columns to the same size, or mounting your plots to foamcore? yes, ok. Furniture layouts? nope, not going to fly.
Actually, I guess this leads to another question: if you get this help, you pass your thesis, and graduate, then you go for interviews to try and get a job- do you tell them it's not your work, or do you represent it as your own? Because unfortunately, it's exactly those pesky skills you haven't learned that employers look for...
OLDFOGEy: oops sorry was labelling. anyway if i was *really* lazy i wouldn't have the grades that i have now. it wouldve been easier to pay for all my projects but once i have a vision i finish everything to the last detail. it's just that it's not the time for being obsessive compulsive as there are only a few days left.
i did it tho.
so im not paying anyone.
everyone happy?
if only i can thank oldfogey, myriam, medusa and elvyschild in the way i'm used to :)
you didn't ask the readers of this forum whether or not it was ethical to have others work on your thesis. you simply asked if someone else wanted to make some extra money so that you could finish up. and frankly, you seem to like hearing only what you want to hear. so this may all be so much wasted breath. but:
if it is a stated policy at your school that a thesis can be a group project, then you've done nothing wrong in a legal or ethical sense and you can quit your rather nietzschean method of self-defense (aka, i can get peons to do my projects because i have the cash and i have the vision, therefore it's justified).
the thesis, as most of us here understand it, is an individual endeavor that is supposed to summarize and synthesize the various skills and aptitudes that one has acquired in school. whether it stands up, or whether it has great spaces, or whether your drawings look pretty...are all supposed to reflect back to you and whether you've learned anything in school or not.
one thing you obviously haven't learned is time management.
another thing you haven't learned is to solve your own problems. if you wonder whether your tower will stand...then delve into the engineering aspects yourself, if only to skim the surface. by all means, talk to some folks over in the engineering department. give them one of your gift baskets, if you like, for their assistance. but do the groundwork and the legwork yourself.
another thing that you also haven't learned is that school isn't about the product, it's about the process. you could have taught yourself CAD and 3D programs WHILE doing your thesis.
i for one taught myself (yes, taught myself) autocad and formz while doing a project in my 4th year of school. that project? doesn't matter a bit that it was really cool and that it looks great in my portfolio. because the cad and modeling skills i learned ... are what i still use today, and i don't need to show people my school projects anymore ... i have actual built projects that do just as well.
we had consultants from ove arup come to our studio a few times. it was a lot of fun to shoot ideas of ridiculous structural systems off them and together come up with a way that one of them might work. of course it was sanctioned by the faculty, and volunteered time by the consultant. that said if not volunteered and if i could have afforded it, i would have chipped into the class fund to have them visit. i learned a lot about structural and mechanical systems listening to the input of the engineers during these reviews.
anyway regarding my thesis i posted another thread so people an just answer my query and i can finish everything myself. since i overestimated the time that i will be spending on furniture layout which was the reason why i was asking for help, i'm done already tho.
OK. I've got to agree with a number of people on this post. But, first and foremost, to you Kellynsee, you're cheating. It is plain and simple. Your complete and utter disregard for ethical practice in the study or architecture is appalling to me and frankly, if you were my student, I'd boot your ass out of school. The reason that there are so many shoddy buildings going up that have no hope of ever truly standing the test of time or contributing anything to the betterment of their respective environments is because of students like you who enter the realm of Professional Practice with no true grasp of what the art and craft of Architecture is all about. You think in the "real world" it's all about managing consultants, you are going to be sorely mistaken when you get your first internship. We are not called "Master Builders" for nothing. It is put to us to wear all of the hats in the job, to coordinate and guide the consultants. To do that, you have to have some idea of what it is that those consultants do. You may be able to skate your way through thesis, but I will have pity on you when you do finally get into Professional Practice. This is a profession, time honored, and true. Try having some respect for that.
And now, on the other hand, I do see the value in testing the limits of convention. I don't believe, that as students, we should be expected to just swallow whatever our professors shove in our mouths (no perverse comments please. let's keep it clean). We should break the mold, think outside the box, take a few journey's away from reality and come back with something new and exciting that no one has seen before. THAT'S ARCHITECTURE. The father's of architecture did just that. From Imhotep right up to I.M. Pei and Daniel Liebiskind. They all broke the mold, and made our world better for it.
And that's my not so humble opinion. I think that this is a very good and much needed thread. I do hope it keeps going.
One more aside, Kellyness, why would you not build a model for Thesis. What kind of school do you attend that doesn't REQUIRE a final model at some reasonable scale?! And how could you work without autocad?! Hand drawings are nice and it is definitely a dying talent and skill (one that thankfully I have kept these ten years or so), but the computer is a necessary tool as much as T-square and triangle. Am I wrong in thinking this?
OldFogey, I agree with you wholeheartedly. But, I believe that this is the heart of the problem. It is precisely when we hold on to those ideas of "solitary romance" that we can truly affect the world around us. You may think me naive and young, so be it. When we give over our passion for architecture simply to "direct traffic" we are not selling out we are simply giving up. I realize that compromise is a necessary step in the design and construction process (I'm working on an airport that has taught me exactly what you've stated) but we can still hold fast to our (the Architect's) design intent and not get bowled over because the mechanical engineer can't take two minutes to think of a way to run his ducts in any other direction than perpendicular and parallel.
We are not referred to as Master Builder's any longer, true. But there was a time when Architect's were revered. Imhotep, the first Architect in recorded history built some of the most amazing structures this world has ever seen, and they exist today still thousands of years later. Granted his client was one of the richest Pharaohs in ancient Egypt, but nonetheless, like him, we should be the Master Builder. As Architect's we shape the built environment around us. It is our responsibility to design responsibly. The client has his/her eyes on one thing, their pocketbook. Which is fine. Money does make the world go round after all. But good and responsible design does not automatically come with a high price tag, and so it falls to us, the Architect, to educate the clients to this. We are not simply managers pushing little dots around the board to achieve a desired result. We are Architects and that title comes with responsibility. We didn't get into this profession simply to make money. We became Architects because we want to design, create and build. If you want money, you're in the wrong profession. I'm way off the subject here I know, so I'll conclude.
Pablo Picasso said, "Every child is an artist. The problem is how to remain an artist once he grows up." This holds true for us. When in school we are filled with Utopian ideals about the practice of architecture. And upon graduation and after a year or two in professional practice we realize that "the emperor has no clothes". But, to hold onto those ideals is what enables us to create beautiful and responsible Architecture.
As I said, OldFogey, I do agree with you, but I also think that there is plenty of room for change in our profession.
OldFogey, I see your point. And it's obvious that you've been at the same place that I am at, and I thank you for everything that you've said in this post. I would wonder where you are located. I'd like to buy you a drink and continue this discussion. I think I, and many of us, could learn quite a bit from you.
This was a worthwile discussion in January, although it still angers me that institutions of higher learning would allow students to outsource their work.
It appears as though Kellynsee passed her thesis review. I wonder if the committee questioned the structural integrity of her project.
(I don't doubt that we all could have benefitted from learning about consultant coordination in school, but that's not really the point of this thread.)
anyone wants to earn money on the side?
does anyone want to help me finish my thesis? it's going way too slow. i'm willing to pay and you can be proud to say you've helped me. hahahahahahaha. i need someone to finish my... furniture layout. i know. pathetic.
You can't afford us - we charge for Archinect posting time (you know research time) which gets kinda expensive:)
Ok, ok, I'll at least get you started with the furniture arrangement. How's this – I've strategically placed the chairs for you…
ooops - almost forgot. That'll be $50 please.
katze. haha. i'm kinda serious. 100$ for furniture layout. any takers?
it's kind of embarrasing to admit that i already hired a team of structural engineers and renderers helping me finish my thesis and yet i cant finish a simple furniture layout.
...when it was just a regular project during my lower years the whole project would've been done in 2 days.
I've heard of "helpers" or "elves" that step in before a thesis is due to assist on the last-minute rendering. I also heard of one student who hired a graphic designer to organize her final presentation boards. Another student sent his AutoCAD drawings to a shop that cut a hundred scaled trusses for his project (before the days of prevalent laser cutters).
But I've never heard of a thesis student who hired a structural engineer to do his/her work.
Where is the ethical line?
What is unethical about that?
I, as long as thousands of other architects/designers, frequently hire on structural engineers to work on projects. We have different roles and responsibilities on a project. We are not trained to be structural engineers. I see nothing wrong with that.
The difference is that a thesis project is an individuals academic endeavour - he/she is to be judged on their own merit.
It is the culmination of their education, knowledge, talent and hard work.
I had a mate tidy up some floor plans for my thesis project - but everything else was my work.
If you can buy these skills, what can you be judged on? Your ability to rope people in and organise subconsulants?
I had the same question; I assumed architecture school must have operated a bit differently than other school programs. If the faculty received word that I hired folks to finish my final software engineering project that would have been grounds for immediate dismissal. kellynsee, I seriously thought you were joking.
Are there no acedemic ground rules in place for thesis work? I don't get it.
At some schools, it is required to have an assistant log hours on your thesis.
diabase: actually it's because my building looks like a tower which is twisting with no columns in the middle and i just wanted to present computations as to how it would hold up a 9 floor block on top of it. just to prove that it can be done. i didn't have to actually hire, it was just an extra step on my part just so when the jury asks me how the tower would hold up. take note, *it wasn't required. i just wanted to have an answer when they ask me ..."so, how would it hold up"
katze: haha. nope, no ground rules. anyway i asked around the lower years to help me clean up my floor plans and do some of the furniture and he's doing it for free. yey! you made me realize that $100 is peanuts in the developed countries.
i'll comment more on thesis when i'm done with school. right now.. teachers might be lurking...
oldfogey: yeah i'd be a shoo in for thesis of the year if that was the case! but... no. hahaha.
2 weeks to go before final deliberations!
i just had to ask, someone once told me that when you reach thesis year (in europe and us) that they can't fail you?
and.. my problem with rendering is that i have no idea how to use rendering programs.
3dmax? viz? what's that? no idea. revit? i'll just stare them all in the face. the only program i know how to use is sketchup, and i'm not even very good at it.
i can draw tho. and sketch. that's the bulk of my talents.. or the lack of it.
We always take an up front retainer, you can send it to P.O.Box 007,
Logos, Nigeria. Once it arrives we will be your servants 24/7 until your project is done. Please include a certified cashiers check for $1,000,000.00.
oldfogey: haha i dont know any students from structual engineering hence i have no choice.
that's a good idea tho.
Are structural calculations really necessary? Did one of your committee/faculty members tell you that you needed to be able to prove - via actual calculations - that your structure would work? It seems like you miss the point of a thesis project, in this instance. Can't you demonstrate other precedent in which this kind of structural system was used? Or even relate it to something else in physics or nature?
For instance, in my thesis project, I used catenary curved cables to suspend swimming pools high above an existing body of water. Did I produce a single structural calculation? No. I merely presented Saarinen's strategy for forming the roof of Dulles Airport. Everyone on my committee was thrilled, and it freed me up to explore other architectural aspects of the project.
I'm guessing in kellyn's school they perhaps grade only on design intent, and not on structure, etc? Perhaps not as holistic an approach as we're used to. Frankly that sounds freeing...
i actually used some of my scholarship money to pay a local hack firm to produce most of the drawings for my thesis project. i provided them with some sketches and retained the role of "design architect" while they did most of the work. nobody seemed to really have a problem with this.
dca: nope, nobody told me to make actual calculations. as i've said, it was an extra step. i couldn't easily show them any picture of what was already built as i have no idea where i'd get a picture of my structural system.
and hey, structural engineers are there for a reason. right?
myriam: yeah well of course we have to show them the structural concept but it's up to us if we want to be "obsessive compulsive" about it. which is why i pid an engineer to help me with it as i am hopeless with structural concepts. paying an architect to help me would be really unfair right? at least all i did was get the usual key players of a regular construction project to help me with some details.
for me it just shows initiative that you get someone to prove your building would actually stand up. oh, and nobody calculated anything, just the concept which i needed an engineer for becuase i was designing a tower-like structure. i'll post pictures when i'm done with it.
if i had known that this would cause this much irritation among archinecters then i wouldn't have posted this.
its pretty much what puddles did, i provided everyone with everything they needed, sketches, details i wanted them to use, the technology i wanted to appear and other stuff. i just couldnt deal with being a cad monkey.
I can see the temptation, but where I'm from that's called cheating.
Awaiting the arrival of or first million.....Haven't had an e-mail confirming its arrival. Sorry we will be out today golfing in Up-State New York, because skiing is crap this year.
a cad monkey? you mean you couldn't handle doing the work?
I think most people would agree hiring someone to do your work is 'buying' the presentation. So those that are rich (or have large limits on their credit cards, God forbid) could have a 100% outsourced presentation.
Getting help is one thing, but hiring a professional firm seems a little unfair to me. Paying a student or two seems fine to me too, but going outside of school, imho, seems over the line.
I dunno, though, in the age of laser cutters and glossy printed boards maybe you have to (has there been any progress with printing in school? Somehow I doubt it).
Structure - all that matters is how it was used in the process. If numbers helped drive the form and design, then it should be there already. Just making up numbers, even if they are 'real', seems irrelevant to me. I mean, every project could have this, right?
It's about the architecture, the strategy and the process.
I thought Puddles was doing dry sarcasm when he said he hired a hack firm.
For the structure, why don't you build a physical model and apply some forces in the form of weights/fans/etc to prove its stability. I think that would impress your jury more than calculation sheets. If you have time, check out Cecil Balmond's book, Informal. It's a great resource for combining concept with structure and it's written in layman's language.
As far as paying people to do parts of your thesis...
I didn't even know you could do this. Isn't that equivalent to not citing information in a written thesis and passing it off as your own? How is it different for design? Unless you give credit somehow to your production team, it's like plagiarism.
guys, it's the same thing as principal designers paying for apprentices and interns. it's their idea(hopefully) and they tell the apprentices what to do while the principal designers get all the credit. if everyone is telling me that what im doing is "cheating" then let's all do away with cad monkeys, interns and apprentices then.
medusa: of course i'll give credit to my production team! that's just selfish if i dont. anyway thanks so much for the suggestion regarding the physical model. will try that :)
jasoncross: why? are you a cadd monkey? geez. i thought we are all studying/practicing to become better architects, not turning into cad monkeys.
snooker: i thought you were in nigeria. a mil is too much for a week's work. i already hired local consultants. thanks :)but next time i have a project i'll know who to call.
no, i am not. but what you are actually talking about are drawings...something integral to design...and you just don't want to do it...pahleeze...you are acting like a major prima donna.
doing your own drawings will not turn you into a cad monkey...it just means you are a designer capable of dealing with all the work you need to get done...You on the other hand can't...that is sad.
kellynsee - I think the underlying point here is that when you get a grade for your thesis it is meant to represent YOUR abilities in design. At the school level, this also includes time management, presentation ability, structural awareness etc. While these are things that you will be able to outsource in the professional environment, developing your own abilities in them will allow you to be a much more considerate architect with an awareness of all the supporting roles around you.
However, I think the most important point here is that what you are suggesting - paying for thesis work - flies in the face of the essence of education. Students should judged on ability, and should NOT be given grade advantages due to the size of their bank account (even thought this is obviously not always the case - e.g. If you can't afford to go to a certain school etc). Once you start paying someone to design furniture layouts or do drawings where do you stop? The kid next to you with more talent but less money can't hope to compete when you are able to hire professionals to make his student work pale in comparisson. I think this is a very dangerous road you need to see the differences between the professional and educational sectors before you dissillusion yourself.
jasoncross: im aware as to how im acting. no need to tell me that i'm spoiled.
i was just wondering why you related being a cad monkey to the "work" meaning the craft.
and i did my own drawings. i just can't deal with furniture layout right now. it's even one of the more relaxing things about architecture. i dont want to explain anymore about how i ran out of time etc etc since you guys probably dont care.
chch: i see your point. which is why i'm taking medusa's advice regarding the study model rather than the engineer. but i still needed some advice from my consulting engineers regarding some structural details which i sort of invented.
i'll post later chch. i'm still looking for some of the stuff i need regarding structural glass. but thanks for the advice :) i totally needed that wake up call. i'll post more when i'm done with my thesis.
that's cheating. if i was a classmate of yours, and found out you were PAYING to get anything, other than plots, or materials, but actual numbers or work, i would not like that.
if you cannot finish your work for your thesis, then you did not plan accordingly. As said before, a thesis is supposed to show your design process, blah blah blah .. and also your time management, working under pressure, constraints. can this student put together all of these complex ideas in the time given. you have (had) probably an entire year to do this.
When you go into the real world and you cannot finish a project, are you going to blow your profit on outsourcing work? You'd lose money on the project, and well, its a snow ball effect from there. Just a small example.
i find it terrible. just my opinion.
"That's not a bad point in my way of thinking, and let's do away with Kinkos, using photographs, and CAD as a mode of production while we're at it."
what are kinkos?
honestly i can live without cad. hahaha. and we dont use any photographs as reference for our presentations. thats more unfair. we have to draft everythng.
yes oldfogey i admit i'm lazy but *sorry* you havent seen my work yet.. the ones ive finished anyway. the deadline was moved up which is why im rushing about and i know if i cant have more time why not just *buy* it instead-- literally.
and.... good news. i finished the furniture by myself. the person i was supposed to hire wasnt done with his work (he's in the lower years.. architecture) so i just stayed at home.. didnt study for my test this afternoon and do my furniture layout.
and i already know that i can't do everything myself so whats wrong with asking for a bit of help? payment is a form of thank you in my opinion since i hired most of my friends for the bits of my thesis that i cant produce myself well like the structural concept.. renderings(i just asked one of my friends to sketchup it for me and i;m coloring it by hand since i dont know how to use any rendering programs) they didnt ask for payment but im more than willing to pay them for the time they spent on my thesis (i treat them to coffee, lunch, dinner whenever possible, buy them gift baskets from expensive stores will still give them monetary benefits like the aforementioned $100 and of course, acknowledgement in my thesis boards and my thesis book for all they help they've given me.) no one asked for money, gifts or little treats, it's just how i am as a friend i think.
oldfogey: and i already admitted that i'm spoiled to jasoncross. so i'm also aware that i'm a bit lazy :)
there was a woman in my first semester of architecture school, a tri-delt, who never did anything until (sometimes) the night before the presentation. then, as we were all staying up late, she'd sidle over, flirt a little, and ask if we wanted to make a little money by doing her project. daddy was the owner of an electronics-store chain that got bought by a bigger chain sometime in the late 80s.
of course she had no takers, and flunked out of arch school the next semester.
it's not exactly the case here. kelly actually did do some of the work. s/he just wants someone to finish it off. kinda like running 90 yards and then paying servants to carry him/her the final 10. in an eames chair.
i gotta hand it to kelly. s/he is right up front. s/he's got problems, but s/he's got cash, and s/he is used to cash solving the problems. would that i had grown up with such a sense of entitlement. but s/he's not playing innocent or humble. wow.
and the whole lucille bluth comment about how "100$" is peanuts in the developed countries? i can't speak, i'm speechless. sounds like the priggish assholes the US seceded from 230.5 years ago.
to get back on topic, hiring a team of experts to work on your thesis -- means you didn't do the work yourself. unlike the "real" world of architecture (at least in the US), the thesis is intended to be solely the work of the candidate, except perhaps in the realm of collaboration (that word is latin for "working TOGETHER on a project") on items that, as with the structural engineer, are outside the true scope of what should be expected from a thesis.
that means, kelly, learn all those programs that we proletarians have to learn so that we can get an -- don't cry now, get one of your design slaves to get you a tissue -- INTERNSHIP -- so that we can get a license -- so that, finally, after 10-15 years, we can get other people to do our work for us.
oh wait, sounds like you have enough cash to return to the "undeveloped" countries and buy your own firm immediately. good luck on daddy's vacation house. i'll see you on the pages of the "design vanguard" issue of architectural record.
actually ochona she is in the phillippines i believe--check her school blog--so the undeveloped country was meant for her own.
by the way, i received a D+ on my thesis. not a very good grade...the drawings weren't very good, but then you get what you pay for
oldfogey: i know lazy's not funny! it's just that everyone's calling me that sooooo ok. i'll just accept the fact that maybe i am lazy from your point of view.
i'm from ta-dahhh the philippines. hahahaha. so no kinkos here.
ochana: i am studying all the required programs for an internship after i graduate from college since the school didnt provide us with such classes. we had to go out and get certificates from other schools for that. they weren't cheap either. the cost of learning all those programs is enough to pay someone your whole thesis project. so i just thought.. why not enjoy my summers and learn them all when i graduate when i wont have any more leisurely summers.
haha. about the$100 is peanuts,.. one of my friends just told me that $100 is nothing in the US when i told him i posted that im paying $100 for people to do a bit of my work. i wouldn't know! i don't live there.
and to make it clear.. i didnt pay people to do my thesis. i did them all. the plans, elevations, sections, etc. it's just that i can't really do some of those work well enough to merit a good quality presentation.
and i'm not used to cash to solve my problems. someone advised me to just pay someone to do all the clean up work and cadd stuff that i dont know how to use so i can finish my work earlier with a better presentation material to pass to the jury.
so, kellysnee, here's the big question that comes up when I read this stuff: If your professors/jury found out about the help you recieved or are trying to obtain, would they still pass you? Because at the school I went to, they wouldn't. Enlisting a first or second year to help with tedious manual labor for an hour or two, such as making trees or cutting 120 columns to the same size, or mounting your plots to foamcore? yes, ok. Furniture layouts? nope, not going to fly.
Actually, I guess this leads to another question: if you get this help, you pass your thesis, and graduate, then you go for interviews to try and get a job- do you tell them it's not your work, or do you represent it as your own? Because unfortunately, it's exactly those pesky skills you haven't learned that employers look for...
OLDFOGEy: oops sorry was labelling. anyway if i was *really* lazy i wouldn't have the grades that i have now. it wouldve been easier to pay for all my projects but once i have a vision i finish everything to the last detail. it's just that it's not the time for being obsessive compulsive as there are only a few days left.
i did it tho.
so im not paying anyone.
everyone happy?
if only i can thank oldfogey, myriam, medusa and elvyschild in the way i'm used to :)
rationalist: i've already said that i wont be working right away. i'll be studying the "pesky skills" we need after i graduate.
re jury: i refuse to answer that right now. maybe after the deliberations :)
That comment certainly suggests that you know that what you are doing is likely to be out-of-bounds, yet you persist anyway.
you didn't ask the readers of this forum whether or not it was ethical to have others work on your thesis. you simply asked if someone else wanted to make some extra money so that you could finish up. and frankly, you seem to like hearing only what you want to hear. so this may all be so much wasted breath. but:
if it is a stated policy at your school that a thesis can be a group project, then you've done nothing wrong in a legal or ethical sense and you can quit your rather nietzschean method of self-defense (aka, i can get peons to do my projects because i have the cash and i have the vision, therefore it's justified).
the thesis, as most of us here understand it, is an individual endeavor that is supposed to summarize and synthesize the various skills and aptitudes that one has acquired in school. whether it stands up, or whether it has great spaces, or whether your drawings look pretty...are all supposed to reflect back to you and whether you've learned anything in school or not.
one thing you obviously haven't learned is time management.
another thing you haven't learned is to solve your own problems. if you wonder whether your tower will stand...then delve into the engineering aspects yourself, if only to skim the surface. by all means, talk to some folks over in the engineering department. give them one of your gift baskets, if you like, for their assistance. but do the groundwork and the legwork yourself.
another thing that you also haven't learned is that school isn't about the product, it's about the process. you could have taught yourself CAD and 3D programs WHILE doing your thesis.
i for one taught myself (yes, taught myself) autocad and formz while doing a project in my 4th year of school. that project? doesn't matter a bit that it was really cool and that it looks great in my portfolio. because the cad and modeling skills i learned ... are what i still use today, and i don't need to show people my school projects anymore ... i have actual built projects that do just as well.
DAMN....NO MONEY YET!
QUESTION: Do you have a Trust Issue?
We have worked for all the the Big American Architecure Furms.
I.M. Pea
Frank Gerry
That Tire Guy
oh ya and the Euro Guys
RUM a Dumb
PIANO MAN
SIR RUDDY
Gust be sure to send the million American dollars to our account before the end of day.
kelly - i dont see what the big deal is...I need the money - you need the furniture layout ...you have a deal - send me the info and ill do it!
we had consultants from ove arup come to our studio a few times. it was a lot of fun to shoot ideas of ridiculous structural systems off them and together come up with a way that one of them might work. of course it was sanctioned by the faculty, and volunteered time by the consultant. that said if not volunteered and if i could have afforded it, i would have chipped into the class fund to have them visit. i learned a lot about structural and mechanical systems listening to the input of the engineers during these reviews.
spaceghost: wow really?
anyway regarding my thesis i posted another thread so people an just answer my query and i can finish everything myself. since i overestimated the time that i will be spending on furniture layout which was the reason why i was asking for help, i'm done already tho.
OK. I've got to agree with a number of people on this post. But, first and foremost, to you Kellynsee, you're cheating. It is plain and simple. Your complete and utter disregard for ethical practice in the study or architecture is appalling to me and frankly, if you were my student, I'd boot your ass out of school. The reason that there are so many shoddy buildings going up that have no hope of ever truly standing the test of time or contributing anything to the betterment of their respective environments is because of students like you who enter the realm of Professional Practice with no true grasp of what the art and craft of Architecture is all about. You think in the "real world" it's all about managing consultants, you are going to be sorely mistaken when you get your first internship. We are not called "Master Builders" for nothing. It is put to us to wear all of the hats in the job, to coordinate and guide the consultants. To do that, you have to have some idea of what it is that those consultants do. You may be able to skate your way through thesis, but I will have pity on you when you do finally get into Professional Practice. This is a profession, time honored, and true. Try having some respect for that.
And now, on the other hand, I do see the value in testing the limits of convention. I don't believe, that as students, we should be expected to just swallow whatever our professors shove in our mouths (no perverse comments please. let's keep it clean). We should break the mold, think outside the box, take a few journey's away from reality and come back with something new and exciting that no one has seen before. THAT'S ARCHITECTURE. The father's of architecture did just that. From Imhotep right up to I.M. Pei and Daniel Liebiskind. They all broke the mold, and made our world better for it.
And that's my not so humble opinion. I think that this is a very good and much needed thread. I do hope it keeps going.
One more aside, Kellyness, why would you not build a model for Thesis. What kind of school do you attend that doesn't REQUIRE a final model at some reasonable scale?! And how could you work without autocad?! Hand drawings are nice and it is definitely a dying talent and skill (one that thankfully I have kept these ten years or so), but the computer is a necessary tool as much as T-square and triangle. Am I wrong in thinking this?
OldFogey, I agree with you wholeheartedly. But, I believe that this is the heart of the problem. It is precisely when we hold on to those ideas of "solitary romance" that we can truly affect the world around us. You may think me naive and young, so be it. When we give over our passion for architecture simply to "direct traffic" we are not selling out we are simply giving up. I realize that compromise is a necessary step in the design and construction process (I'm working on an airport that has taught me exactly what you've stated) but we can still hold fast to our (the Architect's) design intent and not get bowled over because the mechanical engineer can't take two minutes to think of a way to run his ducts in any other direction than perpendicular and parallel.
We are not referred to as Master Builder's any longer, true. But there was a time when Architect's were revered. Imhotep, the first Architect in recorded history built some of the most amazing structures this world has ever seen, and they exist today still thousands of years later. Granted his client was one of the richest Pharaohs in ancient Egypt, but nonetheless, like him, we should be the Master Builder. As Architect's we shape the built environment around us. It is our responsibility to design responsibly. The client has his/her eyes on one thing, their pocketbook. Which is fine. Money does make the world go round after all. But good and responsible design does not automatically come with a high price tag, and so it falls to us, the Architect, to educate the clients to this. We are not simply managers pushing little dots around the board to achieve a desired result. We are Architects and that title comes with responsibility. We didn't get into this profession simply to make money. We became Architects because we want to design, create and build. If you want money, you're in the wrong profession. I'm way off the subject here I know, so I'll conclude.
Pablo Picasso said, "Every child is an artist. The problem is how to remain an artist once he grows up." This holds true for us. When in school we are filled with Utopian ideals about the practice of architecture. And upon graduation and after a year or two in professional practice we realize that "the emperor has no clothes". But, to hold onto those ideals is what enables us to create beautiful and responsible Architecture.
As I said, OldFogey, I do agree with you, but I also think that there is plenty of room for change in our profession.
does my name get added to your paper?
OldFogey, I see your point. And it's obvious that you've been at the same place that I am at, and I thank you for everything that you've said in this post. I would wonder where you are located. I'd like to buy you a drink and continue this discussion. I think I, and many of us, could learn quite a bit from you.
Thank you, again.
P.S.
I've exhausted my argument. I have no more points to make. I have been defeated! ;-)
why dont the achinectors in here just write a freakin book ...damn you guys write too much bullshit!!!
GUILTY AS CHARGED!!
This was a worthwile discussion in January, although it still angers me that institutions of higher learning would allow students to outsource their work.
It appears as though Kellynsee passed her thesis review. I wonder if the committee questioned the structural integrity of her project.
(I don't doubt that we all could have benefitted from learning about consultant coordination in school, but that's not really the point of this thread.)
Block this user
Are you sure you want to block this user and hide all related comments throughout the site?
Archinect
This is your first comment on Archinect. Your comment will be visible once approved.