Was just offered 27k, which is on the low side, seeking advice for how to proceed.
I completed my 4 year B.Arch in May, and was lucky enough in August to get an intern job at a small, 6 person firm in NYC.
I started off making $14/hr, which is equivalent to 31k with my hours.
After a couple months my boss hands me a letter last week with a full-time offer, for 27k, 15 days vacation.
Is it out of line to come back asking for 34k, what one of my freshly-graduated peers is making at a similar firm? I don't know what the firm's total revenues are, or how this typically works. Also I don't have very much knowledge of the technical side of CD's, etc. so maybe my diagrams, models, and renderings just aren't worth that much to him.
Let me say I am very grateful to have any sort of offer in this economy. My living expenses in NYC are around $20,000, so at least I will be surviving, and I hope all of you unemployed architects are hanging in there!
Any advice appreciated, I looked at the salary poll and did many searches before posting but couldn't find much.
Sounds like you are willing to work for the 27k - if so - Just explain that to your boss and tell him you really like working there and would like to continue but could we negotiate the contract for a little more? -
DO NOT DEMAND - you will find yourself out on your ass
welcome the the game of life, (as an arch. intern)
depends on what benefits you have? medical, dental, 401k, etc... kind of sucks though that they lowered your wage by 4k.
ps. a B.arch is specific to the 5 year degree not the 4 year diploma. good luck.
Cheeses, you say you were making roughly $31k "with your hours". Does that mean you were working very long hours? Division with those numbers would show you working about 43 hours per week, which isn't overly long for ANY profession. As a salaried employee, would you continue to be working barely over 40-hour weeks?
Three weeks vacation is certainly more than most people get in their first job.
And do you get any other benefits?
Was this offer out of the blue, or did your boss tell you s/he intended to make you an offer shortly?
In all things, it can't hurt to ask, but be prepared to do it professionally and graciously, which judging from the tone of your post here I am confident you can do.
...my unemployment pays more than 27/k a year. I'm no where near the 99 mark yet.
...and when I get there I have plenty of alternative "resources" I have set up for myself over the past decade to deal with the current blessed famine in the land.
I'm not about to allow the profession (or anyone) to pimp me like some cad monkey whore. Ever.
The permanently incarcerated have a better life. Seriously, do you guys realize that your government is likely teaching REVIT and BIM to prison inmates in your state? They are in mine.
Seriously, do some digging. FELONS are your competition for 27/k a year. That is just. plain. sad. no matter which side of the political fence you find yourself.
One of the guys doing the teaching within the prisons in my area is making 80/k a year working 30 hours a week and he told me he has been doing it 17 years and will retire in 3 with full pay and benefits...he said he is planning on retiring in Puerto Rico (where he is from). Doesn't sound like much of a retirement to me (disease), but hey, to each their own.
@OP
1) $27k is on the low side, especially for NYC
2) if they're offering a full time position, you should be confident that they value your skills and negotiate upwards. this is normal with any job offer.
3) good luck, let us know what happens!
@ sectionalhealing: Believe it or not, me too. It will be a start when the whole system is stopped---> starting with the "redistribution of wealth" via unemployment checks. However, unemployment checks are only one tiny drop in the ocean of things to undo. The marxist cabal won't be completely dismantled until the government is stripped incrementally right back down to the nub. Especially the despotic tyranny of the Fed and their legalized ponzi scheme(s).
Things like the IRS, Social Insecurity and Full Body gropings at airports are par for the course on the way to a bonafide liberty, of course.
Here is to "hoping for change" and "fundamentally transforming america" and the "necessarily skyrocketing electricity prices"! :)
@IHATEMARXISTS
Isn't it capitalism, rather than maxism, that will be dismantled when "the government is stripped incrementally right back down to the nub"?
Isn't the so-called Maxism an institution to prevent Capitalism from falling down by its own weight?
People like using the word Marxist because like corporatism, fascism and national socialism... they are very scary words if you come from a place that's upholds the "myth" of liberalist freedom.
Most of these concepts are rather benign ideologies. In practice... Not so much. In terms of the original canon of Marxism, the overthrow of fuedalist aristocracy happened in world war 1. The whole point of Marxism was to eliminate the glass ceiling that kept the professional and mercantile classes from acquiring privledge and power.
few benefits. will pay about $125/month for health and dental, but that's irrelevant to me with obama's new changes in January
Required to work at least 40 hrs/week. sick days take out of the 15 vacation days.
My plan is to use NYC's standards and my friend's 35.5k salary with benefits as an example, and ask for 34k without health care. But not sure if that will make him offer 31k, and I should ask for 37k to make 34k seem more reasonable.
but once again I am not primarily concerned with money, I enjoy going to work at this place, coworkers are awesome, I rarely have to stay past 6, and in general my life rocks here in nyc. I just can't help but feel a little 'low-balled'
"The whole point of Marxism was to eliminate the glass ceiling that kept the professional and mercantile classes from acquiring privledge and power."
Look I know there are certain people around here whom you just do not contradict.
However at the risk of being labeled a heretic (which I assure you I AM), I must state here and now that the quote above is just simply untrue. Of course, that is a pretty accurate synopsis of the marxist's STATED point, er goal.
But don't let them fool you with the old used car salesman trick of SAYING one thing and then actually DOING another.
The fact is though, as measured by history in hindsight, the (perhaps unintended? shyeah right) real point of marxism is to enslave the many at the expense of the many in order to serve the few.
What is most pathetic above all is that the typical ruling class marxist doesn't realize is that by destroying the middle class (bourgeosie) and turning each and every underling into a serf, their foundation upon which their castles are built become of that much less quality.
...and the pool of women from which they draw in order to drink to their satisfaction becomes that much less, hmmm, shall we say..."desirable"? or perhaps "appealing"?
Marxism, in the long run at least, is most definitely a LOSE-LOSE proposition. Unfortunate. But true as measured by every qualitative and quantitative measure in history.
Personally, I think asking for $37 is going a bit high - not that it's a lot of salary, but in the context of THIS offer, and the expectation that you will counteroffer, $37 seems a bit high. So use the $35.5 your friend makes - it's a solid example.
PS:
Please everyone just ignore this latest iteration of WinstonSmith, aka ihatemarxists It was nice while he was gone, and if we ignore him maybe he'll go away again so the grownups can keep talking.
as an aside, you should not be hired as a salaried employee under the fair labor standards act. as an intern, you are entitled by the flsa to time and a half for any hours worked beyond 40 hours per week. i know this doesn't really matter to you right now; you are just happy to have an offer, but your potential future employer could be reported to the department of labor for violation of the flsa, and they would be fined.
You do realize of course that the health care changes will more than likely result in you paying for health care regardless. Most small offices have already said the new regulations cost them more than the penalty payment so they are opting to cut insurance to save money. True, you might be able to free-market or barter or resource pool or whatever it is they are calling it and getting a cheaper plan, but either way I would factor that into your budget.
Although an offer is an offer, it's a sad state of affairs when this salary is acceptable in a city like New York. I got paid the same amount in starting out in New Mexico, which is easily a huge cut in cost of living.
27k is low for any city. It's downright insulting for NYC. A lot of families get by on even less money than that, but there is something surrealist about producing million dollar design schemes for wealthy clients while living in abject poverty. And no, you are not a tormented artist who has rich benefactors. You have to wear nice clothes, be clean, show up on time, and sit in a wall-less cubicle for at least 40 hours a week. Unless you are allowed to show up to work wearing overalls while letting your roomate cut your hair with a fork, you will grow very tired, very quickly, of living your life paycheck to paycheck.
On unrelated note, why does IHATEMARXISTS have the exact same writing style as Unicorn? The two should open a school on how to have awkward paragraph openings.
Hahaha rusty I'm 43 and still live paycheck to paycheck!
I hate to sounds this bleak, but in this economy, being a few months post-degree, having a job IN the architecture field with people you LIKE doing work you ENJOY is worth a lot of evenings at home eating ramen. On the other hand, maybe I'm not being bleak, but being optimistic!
I have a great job with great beni's and great pay. I havent cut my hair in over a year and a half. I have longer hair then anyone in the 20 person office. Right now I am wearing a black fleece and jeans. Pretty much standard apparel. I wear slacks and a pretty shirt to impress perspective clients.
Donna, I think paycheck to paycheck describes the majority of us in this profession. The difference comes down to the quality of bourbon you can afford at the end of the day.
The poor $27k sap better not plan on dating, unless said date is happy with a slice of cheese pizza and a pbr. I'm not even gonna try to talk about crazy luxuries such as starting a family or real-estate ownership. At $27k your vacation is spent on F train to Brighton Beach.
Stones, I'm sure your wild hippie hair looks lovely. Some people need their monthly haircuts or they start looking like child molesters very quickly. There's also a lot to be said about a sharp dressed architect.
Take it and start moonlighting...your chances of moonlighting will be better because you have a salary job with benefits...people think - well in a recession they still have a fill time job then they know what they are doing
I started in nyc at 27k...made roughly 4 times that 7 years later
Work work work work and do more work
All these people who talk about demanding more are the first people to go in a recession...I have worked in many firms and only about 10 percent of all employees are worth their salary..and no I don't give a shit you have an ivy league masters if you can't work your knowledge of nothing really since you don't know how to work means nothing to me
it is sometimes hard to talk openly and frankly about money but it is important to do it. Unless your boss is not socialised (your description of the office suggests all is cool that way) it should not be a problem to talk candidly and see where it goes. you never know he may be expecting you to make a counter offer.
speaking as an amateur from other side of the fence, we just hired a few staff part-time and negotiation was part of the process. my partner and i had no problems with that at all.
all the Sturm und Drang above aside, congrats on finding a job you are happy with and look forward to doing! that is a great place to be in any economy.
ninjaman: "All these people who talk about demanding more are the first people to go in a recession...I have worked in many firms and only about 10 percent of all employees are worth their salary.."
That's an incredible lack of confidence in your fellow professional peers. 90% of them deserve a pay cut? Lemme guess, you are one of the 10% who pulls the weight of others, brings in profits, and is the only party deserving of more money.
What you made 10 years ago is not comparable to current living expenses. I understand we're in a recession and salaries have been stagnant (if you are even in a position to get one), but $27k seems like an absolute gutter pay. Starting salary for recent grads was at around $40k in NYC not too many years ago. If you have any significant student loans that need to be paid back, you are completely fucked.
It costs a lot to run an office, and profit margins can be razor thin even in boom days. I understand that. Still pennypinching the youngins makes me feel dirty about our profession. There is a HUGE difference between making $27k and $35k. Not so much between $67k and $75k.
There is a HUGE difference between making $27k and $35k. Not so much between $67k and $75k.
This is pretty true, though there is also a huge difference between starting out as a recent grad and competing for jobs against people with 15 years of experience.
so maybe i exegerate...50% (and that would be an accurate estimate based on layoffs of large firms I believe).
you need 3 guys, the HOK, SOM, KPF scenario...1) a bullshitter who opens the deal 2) a manager who closes the deal 3) a tech guy who gets it done
and yes it was about 10 years ago so i'm guessing $27k is more like $35K? i know two guys who started at $18k in the early 90's...
so should it be starting, i believe OP said 4 year degree? (not that I would care - clearly)
I second Donna. I wouldn't hire myself 10 years ago for more than starting salary.
by the way OP Cheesecrist you won't get fired for discussing it, clearly you're valuable otherwise they wouldn't have even approached you in this economy.
well,
lately offices have been offering to hire people on as so called "contract workers", to save on their taxes, like unemployment, medicare, social security, can't blame them for wanting to save money, but if they want to hire me as a "contract worker" which is a misnomer, They are in fact lying because they still boss you around and expect you to go to work at their office using their equipment. According the the IRS you are either an Employee or you are an Independent contractor, and it has a system set up to determine if you are in fact an employee or not.
Anyways I was just relating this to this thread because of the 27,000 dollar amount, That is about what i would be making after i pay my taxes, and oh yes no benefits. I have a 5 year B.arch, enough experience to take a napkin sketch through construction administration, its pretty bad out there
+/- 20% is a negotiation rule of thumb - if the other party asks for a price, you generally can get away with asking 20% higher or lower without severely offending them. so, if they are offering $27k, you might be able ask for $32k without an epic fight or dropped negotiations.
obviously, you should research the financial background of the firm and get a feel for how much leeway you have. it's going to be an educated guess - you know the context better than a bunch of internet retards yelling at each other about marxism, so go with your intuition.
One thing that hasn't been addressed yet is that $27k does not equal $27k that you get to take home. In reality, that number is at least 20% less than that (and could be more... I do not know what the tax rate is in New York).
So, let's assume it's 20% (because round numbers are nice) that you lose to pay for medicare, social security, etc. Even if you hired as a "contract worker" you still need to factor that money loss in because you will be responsible to pay those taxes on your own. At a 20% loss, you are actually taking home $21,600 a year.
Using your $20,000 living expense value (which includes what exactly? rent? utilities? food? transportation? bills?) leaves you with a grand total of $1,600/year OR $133/month in the bank. That is not a lot of room for emergencies or unexpected expenses. There is certainly no room for entertainment or shopping. Nor is this much in the way of graduate school savings. Or loan payments.
Everyone always forgets about payroll taxes when they consider their salary, and then it's a huge wake-up call when you get your first paycheck and it's not exactly what you budgeted for.
Even getting your salary up to $32k would get you an additional $333/month in the bank. That is a considerable difference for a pretty small raise in pay.
As CC points out, make sure you do the math correctly. I think most young folk tend to be very optimistic about expenses, taxes, etc. (I sure was, naive and optimistic!)
If you want the job, and Donna's advice is great, then perhaps ask for specific work experience. Ask to learn a greater variety of things to help make yourself more valuable.
Donna:"there is also a huge difference between starting out as a recent grad and competing for jobs against people with 15 years of experience."
That goes without saying. Noone is arguing for a junior to get senior level money. The green nosed kids can still be extremely useful with picking up lots of smaller tasks and doing a great job with them. My first NYC job was 10 years ago. $14/h plus paid overtime (for a $32k-ish total) made me feel very rich. But my rent was $450 and pints were $3. That the starting salaries have reverted back to Clinton era is very depressing. Cost of living sure hasn't.
There shouldn't be a minimum wage in architecture, but if there was one, CheesesChrist is surely making it.
if you take my 27k id be taking home with me from the contract position, from that id have to pay 5,600something for medical coverage, and about another 400 dollars in gas monthly, 4,800 annual gas, leaving me with $16,600, to pay my rent and bills. man that is pathetic.
At $32,000 in 2000 converted in 2010 dollars, you'd be making about $40,000 in 2010.
If we use consumer price index data specifically from the Northeast, your 2000 salary was closer to $42,000. Data strictly from NYC metro area puts your salary closer to $43,000.
Which is about right. Architectural interns in NYC are starting out anywhere between $38,000-58,000 with various benefits depending on employer. Majority of jobs though are falling in between $40,000-$45,000.
Architectural firm staff (not-intern, IDP, architecture-related) seems to be somewhere between $44,000-$52,000. Entry-level planners and analysts pulling in about $48,000.
I love when people who say that they only made $6.75 back in 1978 and 'lived on it.' Assuming OT included, 2200 hours at $9.75 is $14,850. Although a small amount, that amount today would be $49,000.
Unicorn: "Take home pay for NYC resident for a single person is $21,000."
You're rounding up again. It's $20,400 rounded to a nearest benjamin. Take the health insurance @$125/m (x12) $1,500 year. For a grad total of $18,900.
That's $1,575/m in your hands. You get a paycheck for $787 twice a month, or $727 biweekly.
This is NY state unemployment benefits type of money.
If I was running a studio in NYC, I would be embarrassed to offer such level of compensation. Judging by the number of offices willing to take up free interns, I wager that the concept of shame never really existed in our profession.
What do you do about it? Like many mentioned here, talk to your boss. Do state that your salaried offer (@$27k) is an actual pay cut. $14/h is closer to $32-34k When you account for the hours. If this concept is lost on them, ask to be paid an hourly wage like you were before.
Don:"ps, i got that 5,600 dollar quote from blue cross, for 3 people."
I got a $10k+ quote for wife and I. Having seizures as an adolescent will double your premiums 25 years later. Oh how I wish Obama had the balls to pass a single payer system... Different thread topic, I know.
If that's a pretty reasonable salary in a booming city like, let's say, Shanghai, why is a "crap" salary (OK, I know) in a depressive economy like NYC?
Welcome to globalization. It is not going to be everything about buying cheap stuff to Chinese.
Is 27k/yr way too low?
Was just offered 27k, which is on the low side, seeking advice for how to proceed.
I completed my 4 year B.Arch in May, and was lucky enough in August to get an intern job at a small, 6 person firm in NYC.
I started off making $14/hr, which is equivalent to 31k with my hours.
After a couple months my boss hands me a letter last week with a full-time offer, for 27k, 15 days vacation.
Is it out of line to come back asking for 34k, what one of my freshly-graduated peers is making at a similar firm? I don't know what the firm's total revenues are, or how this typically works. Also I don't have very much knowledge of the technical side of CD's, etc. so maybe my diagrams, models, and renderings just aren't worth that much to him.
Let me say I am very grateful to have any sort of offer in this economy. My living expenses in NYC are around $20,000, so at least I will be surviving, and I hope all of you unemployed architects are hanging in there!
Any advice appreciated, I looked at the salary poll and did many searches before posting but couldn't find much.
definitely not out of line to ask - just have a frank discussion with your boss.
Sounds like you are willing to work for the 27k - if so - Just explain that to your boss and tell him you really like working there and would like to continue but could we negotiate the contract for a little more? -
DO NOT DEMAND - you will find yourself out on your ass
welcome the the game of life, (as an arch. intern)
depends on what benefits you have? medical, dental, 401k, etc... kind of sucks though that they lowered your wage by 4k.
ps. a B.arch is specific to the 5 year degree not the 4 year diploma. good luck.
27k.....that might be good if you are working 25-30 hours a week
BWAHAHAHA...just when I thought the profession couldn't get any more pathetic.
Why am I not surprised?
27K/ year!? In NYC? OMG. How does anyone justify the insanity?
Good grief its become just plain sick out there. I'm glad I visited this site after taking a break for a few months. More glad than ever I bailed.
When will you dimwits decide to learn?
IHATEMARXISTS - where do u work now? Or did you just learn that you can milk the unemployement system?
And if you bailed then why the hell are you here?
Cheeses, you say you were making roughly $31k "with your hours". Does that mean you were working very long hours? Division with those numbers would show you working about 43 hours per week, which isn't overly long for ANY profession. As a salaried employee, would you continue to be working barely over 40-hour weeks?
Three weeks vacation is certainly more than most people get in their first job.
And do you get any other benefits?
Was this offer out of the blue, or did your boss tell you s/he intended to make you an offer shortly?
In all things, it can't hurt to ask, but be prepared to do it professionally and graciously, which judging from the tone of your post here I am confident you can do.
"My living expenses in NYC are around $20,000..."
Guess you don't eat.
...my unemployment pays more than 27/k a year. I'm no where near the 99 mark yet.
...and when I get there I have plenty of alternative "resources" I have set up for myself over the past decade to deal with the current blessed famine in the land.
I'm not about to allow the profession (or anyone) to pimp me like some cad monkey whore. Ever.
The permanently incarcerated have a better life. Seriously, do you guys realize that your government is likely teaching REVIT and BIM to prison inmates in your state? They are in mine.
Seriously, do some digging. FELONS are your competition for 27/k a year. That is just. plain. sad. no matter which side of the political fence you find yourself.
One of the guys doing the teaching within the prisons in my area is making 80/k a year working 30 hours a week and he told me he has been doing it 17 years and will retire in 3 with full pay and benefits...he said he is planning on retiring in Puerto Rico (where he is from). Doesn't sound like much of a retirement to me (disease), but hey, to each their own.
dude, i can't wait until our marxist government stops redistributing my income tax payments towards your unemployment checks.
@OP
1) $27k is on the low side, especially for NYC
2) if they're offering a full time position, you should be confident that they value your skills and negotiate upwards. this is normal with any job offer.
3) good luck, let us know what happens!
re sectionalhealings point:
"...my unemployment pays more than 27/k a year. I'm no where near the 99 mark yet"
IHATEHYPOCRITS
@ sectionalhealing: Believe it or not, me too. It will be a start when the whole system is stopped---> starting with the "redistribution of wealth" via unemployment checks. However, unemployment checks are only one tiny drop in the ocean of things to undo. The marxist cabal won't be completely dismantled until the government is stripped incrementally right back down to the nub. Especially the despotic tyranny of the Fed and their legalized ponzi scheme(s).
Things like the IRS, Social Insecurity and Full Body gropings at airports are par for the course on the way to a bonafide liberty, of course.
Here is to "hoping for change" and "fundamentally transforming america" and the "necessarily skyrocketing electricity prices"! :)
@ DIABASE: "IHATEHYPOCRITS". Me too. That is why I donate the money to Greenpeace, the Sierra Club, and Sarah Palin's branch of the Tea Party.
@IHATEMARXISTS
Isn't it capitalism, rather than maxism, that will be dismantled when "the government is stripped incrementally right back down to the nub"?
Isn't the so-called Maxism an institution to prevent Capitalism from falling down by its own weight?
Syp, that's techinically market socialism.
People like using the word Marxist because like corporatism, fascism and national socialism... they are very scary words if you come from a place that's upholds the "myth" of liberalist freedom.
Most of these concepts are rather benign ideologies. In practice... Not so much. In terms of the original canon of Marxism, the overthrow of fuedalist aristocracy happened in world war 1. The whole point of Marxism was to eliminate the glass ceiling that kept the professional and mercantile classes from acquiring privledge and power.
WHAT AN ASSHOLE IS MORE LIKE IT
thanks for the responses,
a bit more info:
few benefits. will pay about $125/month for health and dental, but that's irrelevant to me with obama's new changes in January
Required to work at least 40 hrs/week. sick days take out of the 15 vacation days.
My plan is to use NYC's standards and my friend's 35.5k salary with benefits as an example, and ask for 34k without health care. But not sure if that will make him offer 31k, and I should ask for 37k to make 34k seem more reasonable.
but once again I am not primarily concerned with money, I enjoy going to work at this place, coworkers are awesome, I rarely have to stay past 6, and in general my life rocks here in nyc. I just can't help but feel a little 'low-balled'
"The whole point of Marxism was to eliminate the glass ceiling that kept the professional and mercantile classes from acquiring privledge and power."
Look I know there are certain people around here whom you just do not contradict.
However at the risk of being labeled a heretic (which I assure you I AM), I must state here and now that the quote above is just simply untrue. Of course, that is a pretty accurate synopsis of the marxist's STATED point, er goal.
But don't let them fool you with the old used car salesman trick of SAYING one thing and then actually DOING another.
The fact is though, as measured by history in hindsight, the (perhaps unintended? shyeah right) real point of marxism is to enslave the many at the expense of the many in order to serve the few.
What is most pathetic above all is that the typical ruling class marxist doesn't realize is that by destroying the middle class (bourgeosie) and turning each and every underling into a serf, their foundation upon which their castles are built become of that much less quality.
...and the pool of women from which they draw in order to drink to their satisfaction becomes that much less, hmmm, shall we say..."desirable"? or perhaps "appealing"?
Marxism, in the long run at least, is most definitely a LOSE-LOSE proposition. Unfortunate. But true as measured by every qualitative and quantitative measure in history.
Personally, I think asking for $37 is going a bit high - not that it's a lot of salary, but in the context of THIS offer, and the expectation that you will counteroffer, $37 seems a bit high. So use the $35.5 your friend makes - it's a solid example.
PS:
Please everyone just ignore this latest iteration of WinstonSmith, aka ihatemarxists It was nice while he was gone, and if we ignore him maybe he'll go away again so the grownups can keep talking.
as an aside, you should not be hired as a salaried employee under the fair labor standards act. as an intern, you are entitled by the flsa to time and a half for any hours worked beyond 40 hours per week. i know this doesn't really matter to you right now; you are just happy to have an offer, but your potential future employer could be reported to the department of labor for violation of the flsa, and they would be fined.
Unicorn Ghost,
I totally agree "that's techinically market socialism".
IHATEMARXISTS,
I think you more or less are right about Maxism, but if it comes to Market Socialism it is a different story, I think.
27k is lowwww for NYC.
It'd be doable if they let you schedule your work 11hours 4 days a week. Then you have two days for a part-time job and a day off.
You do realize of course that the health care changes will more than likely result in you paying for health care regardless. Most small offices have already said the new regulations cost them more than the penalty payment so they are opting to cut insurance to save money. True, you might be able to free-market or barter or resource pool or whatever it is they are calling it and getting a cheaper plan, but either way I would factor that into your budget.
Although an offer is an offer, it's a sad state of affairs when this salary is acceptable in a city like New York. I got paid the same amount in starting out in New Mexico, which is easily a huge cut in cost of living.
27k is low for any city. It's downright insulting for NYC. A lot of families get by on even less money than that, but there is something surrealist about producing million dollar design schemes for wealthy clients while living in abject poverty. And no, you are not a tormented artist who has rich benefactors. You have to wear nice clothes, be clean, show up on time, and sit in a wall-less cubicle for at least 40 hours a week. Unless you are allowed to show up to work wearing overalls while letting your roomate cut your hair with a fork, you will grow very tired, very quickly, of living your life paycheck to paycheck.
On unrelated note, why does IHATEMARXISTS have the exact same writing style as Unicorn? The two should open a school on how to have awkward paragraph openings.
Hahaha rusty I'm 43 and still live paycheck to paycheck!
I hate to sounds this bleak, but in this economy, being a few months post-degree, having a job IN the architecture field with people you LIKE doing work you ENJOY is worth a lot of evenings at home eating ramen. On the other hand, maybe I'm not being bleak, but being optimistic!
I have a great job with great beni's and great pay. I havent cut my hair in over a year and a half. I have longer hair then anyone in the 20 person office. Right now I am wearing a black fleece and jeans. Pretty much standard apparel. I wear slacks and a pretty shirt to impress perspective clients.
Way to side track a thread....
Donna, I think paycheck to paycheck describes the majority of us in this profession. The difference comes down to the quality of bourbon you can afford at the end of the day.
The poor $27k sap better not plan on dating, unless said date is happy with a slice of cheese pizza and a pbr. I'm not even gonna try to talk about crazy luxuries such as starting a family or real-estate ownership. At $27k your vacation is spent on F train to Brighton Beach.
Stones, I'm sure your wild hippie hair looks lovely. Some people need their monthly haircuts or they start looking like child molesters very quickly. There's also a lot to be said about a sharp dressed architect.
Take it and start moonlighting...your chances of moonlighting will be better because you have a salary job with benefits...people think - well in a recession they still have a fill time job then they know what they are doing
I started in nyc at 27k...made roughly 4 times that 7 years later
Work work work work and do more work
All these people who talk about demanding more are the first people to go in a recession...I have worked in many firms and only about 10 percent of all employees are worth their salary..and no I don't give a shit you have an ivy league masters if you can't work your knowledge of nothing really since you don't know how to work means nothing to me
Happy thanksgiving
"There's also a lot to be said about a sharp dressed architect." Yeah, like what?
This sharp dressed thing occured in the last 20 years and hasnt done much for the sharp dressed people on the unemployement line.
Wasnt too long ago that architects were wearing smocks with led smeared all over their arms and face.
wow, that was tedious in parts.
donna gives good advice.
it is sometimes hard to talk openly and frankly about money but it is important to do it. Unless your boss is not socialised (your description of the office suggests all is cool that way) it should not be a problem to talk candidly and see where it goes. you never know he may be expecting you to make a counter offer.
speaking as an amateur from other side of the fence, we just hired a few staff part-time and negotiation was part of the process. my partner and i had no problems with that at all.
all the Sturm und Drang above aside, congrats on finding a job you are happy with and look forward to doing! that is a great place to be in any economy.
ninjaman: "All these people who talk about demanding more are the first people to go in a recession...I have worked in many firms and only about 10 percent of all employees are worth their salary.."
That's an incredible lack of confidence in your fellow professional peers. 90% of them deserve a pay cut? Lemme guess, you are one of the 10% who pulls the weight of others, brings in profits, and is the only party deserving of more money.
What you made 10 years ago is not comparable to current living expenses. I understand we're in a recession and salaries have been stagnant (if you are even in a position to get one), but $27k seems like an absolute gutter pay. Starting salary for recent grads was at around $40k in NYC not too many years ago. If you have any significant student loans that need to be paid back, you are completely fucked.
It costs a lot to run an office, and profit margins can be razor thin even in boom days. I understand that. Still pennypinching the youngins makes me feel dirty about our profession. There is a HUGE difference between making $27k and $35k. Not so much between $67k and $75k.
This is pretty true, though there is also a huge difference between starting out as a recent grad and competing for jobs against people with 15 years of experience.
so maybe i exegerate...50% (and that would be an accurate estimate based on layoffs of large firms I believe).
you need 3 guys, the HOK, SOM, KPF scenario...1) a bullshitter who opens the deal 2) a manager who closes the deal 3) a tech guy who gets it done
and yes it was about 10 years ago so i'm guessing $27k is more like $35K? i know two guys who started at $18k in the early 90's...
so should it be starting, i believe OP said 4 year degree? (not that I would care - clearly)
I second Donna. I wouldn't hire myself 10 years ago for more than starting salary.
by the way OP Cheesecrist you won't get fired for discussing it, clearly you're valuable otherwise they wouldn't have even approached you in this economy.
well,
lately offices have been offering to hire people on as so called "contract workers", to save on their taxes, like unemployment, medicare, social security, can't blame them for wanting to save money, but if they want to hire me as a "contract worker" which is a misnomer, They are in fact lying because they still boss you around and expect you to go to work at their office using their equipment. According the the IRS you are either an Employee or you are an Independent contractor, and it has a system set up to determine if you are in fact an employee or not.
Anyways I was just relating this to this thread because of the 27,000 dollar amount, That is about what i would be making after i pay my taxes, and oh yes no benefits. I have a 5 year B.arch, enough experience to take a napkin sketch through construction administration, its pretty bad out there
maybe you will find this helpful:
+/- 20% is a negotiation rule of thumb - if the other party asks for a price, you generally can get away with asking 20% higher or lower without severely offending them. so, if they are offering $27k, you might be able ask for $32k without an epic fight or dropped negotiations.
obviously, you should research the financial background of the firm and get a feel for how much leeway you have. it's going to be an educated guess - you know the context better than a bunch of internet retards yelling at each other about marxism, so go with your intuition.
One thing that hasn't been addressed yet is that $27k does not equal $27k that you get to take home. In reality, that number is at least 20% less than that (and could be more... I do not know what the tax rate is in New York).
So, let's assume it's 20% (because round numbers are nice) that you lose to pay for medicare, social security, etc. Even if you hired as a "contract worker" you still need to factor that money loss in because you will be responsible to pay those taxes on your own. At a 20% loss, you are actually taking home $21,600 a year.
Using your $20,000 living expense value (which includes what exactly? rent? utilities? food? transportation? bills?) leaves you with a grand total of $1,600/year OR $133/month in the bank. That is not a lot of room for emergencies or unexpected expenses. There is certainly no room for entertainment or shopping. Nor is this much in the way of graduate school savings. Or loan payments.
Everyone always forgets about payroll taxes when they consider their salary, and then it's a huge wake-up call when you get your first paycheck and it's not exactly what you budgeted for.
Even getting your salary up to $32k would get you an additional $333/month in the bank. That is a considerable difference for a pretty small raise in pay.
Take home pay for NYC resident for a single person is $21,000.
The maximum rent a landlord would let you rent at would be $466 dollars.
$466 dollar rent in New York City? That's funny. Have fun on the 2+ hour commute in from the sticks.
Wow, this is a sad world!
As CC points out, make sure you do the math correctly. I think most young folk tend to be very optimistic about expenses, taxes, etc. (I sure was, naive and optimistic!)
If you want the job, and Donna's advice is great, then perhaps ask for specific work experience. Ask to learn a greater variety of things to help make yourself more valuable.
Donna:"there is also a huge difference between starting out as a recent grad and competing for jobs against people with 15 years of experience."
That goes without saying. Noone is arguing for a junior to get senior level money. The green nosed kids can still be extremely useful with picking up lots of smaller tasks and doing a great job with them. My first NYC job was 10 years ago. $14/h plus paid overtime (for a $32k-ish total) made me feel very rich. But my rent was $450 and pints were $3. That the starting salaries have reverted back to Clinton era is very depressing. Cost of living sure hasn't.
There shouldn't be a minimum wage in architecture, but if there was one, CheesesChrist is surely making it.
if you take my 27k id be taking home with me from the contract position, from that id have to pay 5,600something for medical coverage, and about another 400 dollars in gas monthly, 4,800 annual gas, leaving me with $16,600, to pay my rent and bills. man that is pathetic.
ps, i got that 5,600 dollar quote from blue cross, for 3 people.
At $32,000 in 2000 converted in 2010 dollars, you'd be making about $40,000 in 2010.
If we use consumer price index data specifically from the Northeast, your 2000 salary was closer to $42,000. Data strictly from NYC metro area puts your salary closer to $43,000.
Which is about right. Architectural interns in NYC are starting out anywhere between $38,000-58,000 with various benefits depending on employer. Majority of jobs though are falling in between $40,000-$45,000.
Architectural firm staff (not-intern, IDP, architecture-related) seems to be somewhere between $44,000-$52,000. Entry-level planners and analysts pulling in about $48,000.
I love when people who say that they only made $6.75 back in 1978 and 'lived on it.' Assuming OT included, 2200 hours at $9.75 is $14,850. Although a small amount, that amount today would be $49,000.
Unicorn: "Take home pay for NYC resident for a single person is $21,000."
You're rounding up again. It's $20,400 rounded to a nearest benjamin. Take the health insurance @$125/m (x12) $1,500 year. For a grad total of $18,900.
That's $1,575/m in your hands. You get a paycheck for $787 twice a month, or $727 biweekly.
This is NY state unemployment benefits type of money.
If I was running a studio in NYC, I would be embarrassed to offer such level of compensation. Judging by the number of offices willing to take up free interns, I wager that the concept of shame never really existed in our profession.
What do you do about it? Like many mentioned here, talk to your boss. Do state that your salaried offer (@$27k) is an actual pay cut. $14/h is closer to $32-34k When you account for the hours. If this concept is lost on them, ask to be paid an hourly wage like you were before.
Don:"ps, i got that 5,600 dollar quote from blue cross, for 3 people."
I got a $10k+ quote for wife and I. Having seizures as an adolescent will double your premiums 25 years later. Oh how I wish Obama had the balls to pass a single payer system... Different thread topic, I know.
Unicorn "Architectural interns in NYC are starting out anywhere between $38,000-58,000 with various benefits depending on employer"
$27k is the new $38-58k, apparently.
I feel this is going to be more and more common.
If that's a pretty reasonable salary in a booming city like, let's say, Shanghai, why is a "crap" salary (OK, I know) in a depressive economy like NYC?
Welcome to globalization. It is not going to be everything about buying cheap stuff to Chinese.
holly shit rusty!
People do you all kind of get the feeling that some kind of powerful organization wants to assassinate Architecture?
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